Miami Open, ATP Masters 2018

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,604
Reactions
14,761
Points
113
Another player coming back from injury, Goffin, won only one game v. Sousa. I figured he wouldn't go far, but that was surprising. He's had some bad luck, I think anyone would say that. :-)2
 

El Dude

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
10,114
Reactions
5,764
Points
113
Don't forget, also, that it took Rafa over two years to return to something resembling prime form, from Roland Garros 2014 to the beginning of 2017.

Now obviously the situations are different, but I'm just pointing out that while it has now been over a year and a half since Novak won anything big (Canada, 2016), it isn't unheard of for a great player to return to a high level of play after 2+ years of struggle.
 

Obsi

Masters Champion
Joined
Jan 31, 2016
Messages
556
Reactions
0
Points
0
Nadal never had so serious injury as Djokovic. Rafa never had surgery. Federer had the surgery in early February of 2016 but he didn’t play before Monte Carlo. He took 6 months off after Wimbledon and returned with his knee fully healed. Djokovic too had 6 months break but it didn’t fix the elbow problem.

It’s bullshit to say “not everyone comes storming back like Roger and Rafa” when talking about the Novak’s comeback.
 

atttomole

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
3,347
Reactions
1,138
Points
113
Don't forget, also, that it took Rafa over two years to return to something resembling prime form, from Roland Garros 2014 to the beginning of 2017.

Now obviously the situations are different, but I'm just pointing out that while it has now been over a year and a half since Novak won anything big (Canada, 2016), it isn't unheard of for a great player to return to a high level of play after 2+ years of struggle.
I remember I said something similar in another thread. Some people were even saying that Nadal would not win another slam, even though he had come back from injury at least twice before to win slams. Such knee-jerk reactions occur in the heat of the moment. I think Djokovic can still come back and do well. He needs time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moxie and El Dude

Busted

Major Winner
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
1,281
Reactions
412
Points
83
Just saw the Djokovic score...and really...he lost to Benoit Paire? I didn't see the match so I don't know if Paire was playing lights out or Djokovic was home with no lights on...BUT...if I were a hardcore Djokovic fan...I'd start worrying. I see he's scheduled to play Monte Carlo but as far as I can tell the only good thing about that is he'll be able to sleep in his own home hyperbaric chamber instead of the travel-sized model.
 

El Dude

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
10,114
Reactions
5,764
Points
113
I remember I said something similar in another thread. Some people were even saying that Nadal would not win another slam, even though he had come back from injury at least twice before to win slams. Such knee-jerk reactions occur in the heat of the moment. I think Djokovic can still come back and do well. He needs time.

Well to be fair to those who thought Rafa would never win another (including me), dial it back to late 2016 and not many people--even Rafa fans--thought he would do what he did in 2017. If I remember correctly, only @Carol thought he would return to form; most Rafa fans were hoping for one more dead-cat-bounce Roland Garros - like Pete's 2002 US Open. I'm guessing Rafa exceeded even Carol's expectations.

What Rafa and, more so, Roger did in 2017 is rare indeed, even unprecedented. Not simply longevity, but having a late career peak after years of relative drought. Players have done that before, but rarely if ever in their 30s - and never in their mid-30s.

I think the bottom line is that we simply don't know what to expect from Novak. He could continue to struggle and then hang up his racquet in frustration, or he could find his form again and have another two or three years of dominant form. He's a world class talent, one of the greatest of all time, but he's also struggling mightily - so anything is possible.

In the poll I started a couple months ago, I took the moderate route and voted that he might win another Slam or two, certainly some Masters. I still think that's possible, but I'm starting to question. Even though he could come back, the longer it takes the more doubtful it becomes. Still, he's "only" turning 31, which is the new 28, so theoretically could maintain a high level for at least 2-3 more years. We shall see.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MartyB and Moxie

Busted

Major Winner
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
1,281
Reactions
412
Points
83
I remember I said something similar in another thread. Some people were even saying that Nadal would not win another slam, even though he had come back from injury at least twice before to win slams. Such knee-jerk reactions occur in the heat of the moment. I think Djokovic can still come back and do well. He needs time.

ITA. I'm not throwing in the towel. I've given him to the US Open to see if he can get his shite together, but man...losing to Taro Daniel and Benoit Paire back-to-back weeks? Not good. Not good.
 

atttomole

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
3,347
Reactions
1,138
Points
113
Well to be fair to those who thought Rafa would never win another (including me), dial it back to late 2016 and not many people--even Rafa fans--thought he would do what he did in 2017. If I remember correctly, only @Carol thought he would return to form; most Rafa fans were hoping for one more dead-cat-bounce Roland Garros - like Pete's 2002 US Open. I'm guessing Rafa exceeded even Carol's expectations.

What Rafa and, more so, Roger did in 2017 is rare indeed, even unprecedented. Not simply longevity, but having a late career peak after years of relative drought. Players have done that before, but rarely if ever in their 30s - and never in their mid-30s.

I think the bottom line is that we simply don't know what to expect from Novak. He could continue to struggle and then hang up his racquet in frustration, or he could find his form again and have another two or three years of dominant form. He's a world class talent, one of the greatest of all time, but he's also struggling mightily - so anything is possible.

In the poll I started a couple months ago, I took the moderate route and voted that he might win another Slam or two, certainly some Masters. I still think that's possible, but I'm starting to question. Even though he could come back, the longer it takes the more doubtful it becomes. Still, he's "only" turning 31, which is the new 28, so theoretically could maintain a high level for at least 2-3 more years. We shall see.
Agreed. We will never know. Its not easy to prognosticate how a player coming from injury would recover their game, especially if they are above 30 years of age.
 
  • Like
Reactions: El Dude

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,604
Reactions
14,761
Points
113
Nadal never had so serious injury as Djokovic. Rafa never had surgery. Federer had the surgery in early February of 2016 but he didn’t play before Monte Carlo. He took 6 months off after Wimbledon and returned with his knee fully healed. Djokovic too had 6 months break but it didn’t fix the elbow problem.

It’s bullshit to say “not everyone comes storming back like Roger and Rafa” when talking about the Novak’s comeback.
It's true that Rafa has never had surgery, but Novak has spent a lot of productive years when there was nothing more than a niggle, while Rafa carries chronic tendonitis in both knees, and has had significant injury lay-offs. This is Novak's first real struggle with injury. I'm sorry if it offends you that I say "not everyone comes storming back like Roger and Rafa." That was a comment directed @Federberg, who has stated as much, more than a few times. Call it "bullshit" if you like, but so far, it seems to be true.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,604
Reactions
14,761
Points
113
Don't forget, also, that it took Rafa over two years to return to something resembling prime form, from Roland Garros 2014 to the beginning of 2017.

Now obviously the situations are different, but I'm just pointing out that while it has now been over a year and a half since Novak won anything big (Canada, 2016), it isn't unheard of for a great player to return to a high level of play after 2+ years of struggle.
I have absolutely said that Novak can come back to form. It seems that it's going to take some time. I don't think that's controversial, at this point. And yes, Rafa did have a couple of years working on his best form, after injury in 2014. Likewise, it had taken Roger 4 1/2 years to win another Major. Djokovic will find his own way back, to whatever level. We'll just have to see how long this period of struggle lasts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: El Dude

atttomole

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
3,347
Reactions
1,138
Points
113
Del Potro's second serves are telegraphed. He gets broken in the second set.
 

atttomole

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
3,347
Reactions
1,138
Points
113
And Haase promptly returns the favor. Back on serve.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,604
Reactions
14,761
Points
113
Good win from JMDP. I like Haase, but he isn't in the same realm.
 
Last edited:

Andy22

Major Winner
Joined
Feb 2, 2018
Messages
1,975
Reactions
488
Points
83
Location
Australia
Even if djokovic got rolled by, paire its good he played the event, he clearly needs the matches under his belt. I still think will be playing level tennis by us open time.
 

Federberg

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 22, 2013
Messages
15,542
Reactions
5,607
Points
113
I have absolutely said that Novak can come back to form. It seems that it's going to take some time. I don't think that's controversial, at this point. And yes, Rafa did have a couple of years working on his best form, after injury in 2014. Likewise, it had taken Roger 4 1/2 years to win another Major. Djokovic will find his own way back, to whatever level. We'll just have to see how long this period of struggle lasts.

I too have never said Novak can't return to top form. I have questioned the assumption by many that he would just simply revert back to greatness. There are perishingly few top players who have come back from significant injury or slumps to dominate the game again. Federer, Nadal, Agassi... after that I struggle to think of others. It is not the norm and therefore it's crazy to me that so many just assume Novak's return to the top as inevitable. I continue to maintain that if Murray is completely healed from the hip surgery he will have a better shot at it than Novak. Unlike Novak he doesn't appear to have mental baggage, and I really like the fact that for him it's just about the love of the game. He's stated that he'll be happy with a top 30 berth. While I don't actually believe that, there's a realism about the task ahead that seems healthier to me. When I watch Novak at the moment, it honestly looks like he's not prepared for the mental work it's going to take to get back to the top. And what's worse is that he's doing something that even at their worst Roger and Rafa never did, and that's give the field reason to disrespect his resolve. Let's be honest, none of us are really surprised at the Novak result here. If we aren't, then you can bet the locker room isn't either. The implications of that are terrible for Novak. That means that not only is he a scalp because of his past success, but guys are going to go on court against him fully expecting to beat him. No one will want to be the guy that loses to him. He is going to have to work even harder than Roger and Rafa ever had to, to get back to the top and that's a problem of his own making because of his own attitude
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andy22 and MartyB

isabelle

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
4,673
Reactions
634
Points
113
Nole isn't ready for the moment, he needs time to come back at a décent level
 

Obsi

Masters Champion
Joined
Jan 31, 2016
Messages
556
Reactions
0
Points
0
It's true that Rafa has never had surgery, but Novak has spent a lot of productive years when there was nothing more than a niggle, while Rafa carries chronic tendonitis in both knees, and has had significant injury lay-offs. This is Novak's first real struggle with injury. I'm sorry if it offends you that I say "not everyone comes storming back like Roger and Rafa." That was a comment directed @Federberg, who has stated as much, more than a few times. Call it "bullshit" if you like, but so far, it seems to be true.

By saying “bullshit” I meant it’s nonsense to claim that Djokovic having unsuccessful comeback means he is an inferior player to Federer and Nadal when it comes to comebacks. In that context, it is not true. That’s why I said Nadal never had so serious injury as Novak so Rafa’s comebacks can’t be compared to Djokovic’s.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

mrzz

Hater
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
6,167
Reactions
2,989
Points
113
I wonder if we are not getting too carried away by the categories we create. "Who is the best on clay", "who has the best forehand", well, that's fine, but "who is the best at comebacks..." sorry, this is too much for me. I get the point that it is really hard to come back at the very top -- it is hard to get there to begin with -- but how in the world could we compare different comebacks? Different players, different conditions, different reasons for the lay off...

..about Djokovic, a lot of people here, including myself, figured that he would have a hard time coming back, one of the reasons is the delicate mix of precision, physicality, endurance and technique that his top game is based on. It took him more time to develop as an upper elite player (probably because of that), it is not that surprising that it takes more time for him to climb back the mountain. If he actually start winning majors again, at least for me it is completely irrelevant if it took six months or a year to do so...
 

Federberg

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 22, 2013
Messages
15,542
Reactions
5,607
Points
113
I wonder if we are not getting too carried away by the categories we create. "Who is the best on clay", "who has the best forehand", well, that's fine, but "who is the best at comebacks..." sorry, this is too much for me. I get the point that it is really hard to come back at the very top -- it is hard to get there to begin with -- but how in the world could we compare different comebacks? Different players, different conditions, different reasons for the lay off...

..about Djokovic, a lot of people here, including myself, figured that he would have a hard time coming back, one of the reasons is the delicate mix of precision, physicality, endurance and technique that his top game is based on. It took him more time to develop as an upper elite player (probably because of that), it is not that surprising that it takes more time for him to climb back the mountain. If he actually start winning majors again, at least for me it is completely irrelevant if it took six months or a year to do so...
I agree to most of what you say but let’s be accurate. He got his first slam earlier than Federer didn’t he?
 

mrzz

Hater
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
6,167
Reactions
2,989
Points
113
I agree to most of what you say but let’s be accurate. He got his first slam earlier than Federer didn’t he?
Nice catch (@#$&#¥€£!!!!)

Anyway It surely took him more time to reach #1. I don't think he even got to #2 in 2008.

Enviado de meu MotoE2(4G-LTE) usando Tapatalk