Cincinnati Masters 2025, Ohio, US - ATP Masters 1000

[Moxie]

Or to put it another way, I kind of see it like this. If we imagine tennis ability on a scale of 100, then:

ALCARAZ:
A+ Game (very best level): 100
A Game (typical top form): 90
B Game (not best form): 80

SINNER:
A+ Game: 97
A Game: 92
B Game: 85

Or something like that (with possible adjustments for surface and health). The numbers themselves are just illustrative of the point: Carlos's A+ game is truly astonishing - really, as good as any I've seen, but Jannik's is still amazing, and his A and B games are a bit higher.

I always have a bit of a problem when you take how you "feel" about something, or how it appears to your personal eye-test, and assign numbers to it. I know that it's kind of the way you process, but it looks quantifiable, which it is not. To me, not only is Carlos's A+ game better than Sinner's, he A-game is, too. It's whatever "typical top form" means to you. Two points difference? That is the statistician's version of "Irish hyperbolic poetry." LOL. I'm not trying to pick at you, but you were parsing words with Kieran, over "much" better. Everyone here, and I think everyone in the tennis community, believes that Carlos's ceiling is the highest in the game. Jason Goodall said it yesterday. "At his best, he's the best player in the game today." It's hard to quantify, but it's pretty universally agreed upon. So, I think that means the A-game, too.

Mostly what Sinner is better at, besides his serve, is his consistency. Ruthless consistency. I'm not saying these are his only gifts, just saying what he does better than Alcaraz. So I would definitely say his B-game is better than Alcaraz's, because it doesn't have the dips.

 

[El Dude]

Okay, "much" is slightly partisan, but I think Carlos just has so much more gift than Jannik. it's like McEnroe and Borg - Mac was so much more gifted, whereas Bjorn had endless patience and consistency, which are precious gifts in themselves, winning qualities, but I wasn't talking about them qualities. One thing Sinner has over Carlos is that the younger man is less consistent, and he gives opportunities which Sinner doesn't really give. Meanwhile I think they're both mentally tough. There's a stage Carlos has to reach where - like Sampras in 1993, he owns his ability and forces it on others with more cool. More cruel.

I don't think he's there yet, but I hope that in the next 12 months we see him live in that rarefied air where only the very best live. He's good enough, and if he does, then Sinner will be Agassi..

We shall see. I'm not sure the gap is as large as Sampras/Agassi, but I definitely could see Carlos going through spells of dominance in which he's nigh unbeatable, even vs. Sinner. But I don't think he'll ever go through an extended period of years where he totally dominates Sinner. Who knows, though.

I think the larger picture, though, is their shared dominance. We're getting shades of Fedal, in terms of of their stinginess of owning the big tournaments. Since the beginning of 2024, they've won 15 of 25 big tournaments (including Cincy), or 60% over the last two seasons. In 2005-07, Fedal won 32 of 42 (76%), so it isn't quite on that level yet.

 

[El Dude]

I always have a bit of a problem when you take how you "feel" about something, or how it appears to your personal eye-test, and assign numbers to it. I know that it's kind of the way you process, but it looks quantifiable, which it is not.

To me, not only is Carlos's A+ game better than Sinner's, he A-game is, too. It's whatever "typical top form" means to you. Two points difference? That is the statistician's version of "Irish hyperbolic poetry." LOL.

That sounds like a you problem, Moxie. ;-) I'm very clear that those numbers aren't quantifiable. I'm using them as illustration - as I said. They don't mean anything, except relative to each other as illustrating what I'm trying to say.

I'm not trying to pick at you, but you were parsing words with Kieran, over "much" better. Everyone here, and I think everyone in the tennis community, believes that Carlos's ceiling is the highest in the game. Jason Goodall said it yesterday. "At his best, he's the best player in the game today." It's hard to quantify, but it's pretty universally agreed upon. So, I think that means the A-game, too.

Well, I don't think everyone in the tennis world would agree with the word "much."

But yeah, I think Sinner's "A game" has been better. I mean, their records over the last two seasons kind of proves the point.

2024-25
Sinner: 104-9 (92%)
Alcaraz: 107-19 (83.6%)

Now maybe that can be explained by Sinner's consistency. I mean, regardless, a player's overall dominance is a function of consistency multiplied by peak level.

We could also get rid of the A+/A differentiation, then I'd agree with you - Carlos gets the edge in terms of best level of play. But not by "much." This may change if Carlos gets better - which is quite possible.

Mostly what Sinner is better at, besides his serve, is his consistency. Ruthless consistency. I'm not saying these are his only gifts, just saying what he does better than Alcaraz. So I would definitely say his B-game is better than Alcaraz's, because it doesn't have the dips.

Yes, agreed. Sinner's band of performance is narrower, Alcaraz broader - on both ends.

 

[Moxie]

That sounds like a you problem, Moxie. ;-) I'm very clear that those numbers aren't quantifiable. I'm using them as illustration - as I said. They don't mean anything, except relative to each other as illustrating what I'm trying to say.

Well, I don't think everyone in the tennis world would agree with the word "much."

But yeah, I think Sinner's "A game" has been better. I mean, their records over the last two seasons kind of proves the point.

2024-25
Sinner: 104-9 (92%)
Alcaraz: 107-19 (83.6%)

Now maybe that can be explained by Sinner's consistency. I mean, regardless, a player's overall dominance is a function of consistency multiplied by peak level.

We could also get rid of the A+/A differentiation, then I'd agree with you - Carlos gets the edge in terms of best level of play. But not by "much." This may change if Carlos gets better - which is quite possible.

Yes, agreed. Sinner's band of performance is narrower, Alcaraz broader - on both ends.

Don't try to make this as a "me" problem. Don't be a twat. We're talking small points here, and they can be discussed.

We already put the word "much" to bed. FFS.

Now you're explaining Sinner's A-game with the numbers, based on W-L. But that's not the same thing, is it? Top players win plenty of matches with their B-game. I didn't think that's what we were talking about. LMK.

 

[El Dude]

Don't try to make this as a "me" problem. Don't be a twat. We're talking small points here, and they can be discussed.

We already put the word "much" to bed. FFS.

Now you're explaining Sinner's A-game with the numbers, based on W-L. But that's not the same thing, is it? Top players win plenty of matches with their B-game. I didn't think that's what we were talking about. LMK.

Why are you so insistent on making everything into a squabble?

I was teasing you. And yes, when I clearly state that the made-up numbers are merely illustrative, and you still think I'm trying make my opinion quantifiable, that's a you problem.

Anyhow, it could really boil down to how frequently they can reach their A-game. Maybe the compromise is that Alcaraz's A game is higher, but he doesn't reach it as frequently as Sinner, and Sinner's B game is higher, so he loses fewer matches. Happy? Now you can look for someone else to squabble with.

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

The one weakness Sinner has is winning 5-setters. This is why I do not believe he would have come back against Dmitrov. He has lost 8 matches that have gone 5 sets since 2022 Wimbledon, by far the most of any player:

2022 Wimbledon
2022 US Open
2023 Australian Open
2023 French Open
2023 US Open
2024 French Open
2024 Wimbledon
2025 French Open

Imagine if Sinner converts just half of these. He could have 8 slams by now.

 

[Moxie]

Sinner looking not great in the final. Is he OK? Carlos has broken him twice to start off. 3-0 to Alcaraz.

 

[Moxie]

No, definitely not OK. He just retired. He looks to be ill.

 

[don_fabio]

No, definitely not OK. He just retired. He looks to be ill.

It was probably some stomach issues. Too bad we could not see the whole match and a healthy Sinner.

 

[Fiero425]

No, definitely not OK. He just retired. He looks to be ill.

All that hype & aniticpation only to deal w/ another retirement! This is going to be the norm IMO; even w/ the women! What, did Sinner actually think he could "tough it out?" At his best he has trouble w/ Alcaraz, why didn't he WD earlier? The women's Final's no consolation!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

It was probably some stomach issues. Too bad we could not see the whole match and a healthy Sinner.

It must have been Don because he has played solid all week without dropping a set and quite frankly I was fairly confident he would win today.As Carlos has had dips and lost in focus in matches in the tournament
Hopefully he gets over what bug he had because he has to defend his title at the USO

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

The one weakness Sinner has is winning 5-setters. This is why I do not believe he would have come back against Dmitrov. He has lost 8 matches that have gone 5 sets since 2022 Wimbledon, by far the most of any player:

2022 Wimbledon
2022 US Open
2023 Australian Open
2023 French Open
2023 US Open
2024 French Open
2024 Wimbledon
2025 French Open

Imagine if Sinner converts just half of these. He could have 8 slams by now.

Again you post is based on hypotheticals? that Sinner might not have come back against Dimitrov
May I remind you he was down 2 sets to love in his match against Meddy in the AO final and won

 

[Kieran]

Again you post is based on hypotheticals? that Sinner might not have come back against Dimitrov
May I remind you he was down 2 sets to love in his match against Meddy in the AO final and won

Well Danii had played 3 long five set matches - including both Q/f and semi - and was obviously knackered once he lost the third in that final. Nobody has ever won 4 five set matches to win a slam, I believe.

Pity for him a lose that way…

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Well Danii had played 3 long five set matches - including both Q/f and semi - and was obviously knackered once he lost the third in that final. Nobody has ever won 4 five set matches to win a slam, I believe.

Pity for him a lose that way…

I watched his matches, it was his own fault he lost focus when he should have won in 3 sets, Meddy has a habbit of doing that btw

 

[Front242]

Sinner retired 'cos of an elbow injury today. He wasn't sick.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Sinner retired 'cos of an elbow injury today. He wasn't sick.

No incorrect it wasnt his elbow, apparently he wasnt feeling well yesterday and this team were not surprised that he retired
ESPN reported it was an illness not an injury
It if was his elbow it would have played up earlier in the tournament

 

[Kieran]

I watched his matches, it was his own fault he lost focus when he should have won in 3 sets, Meddy has a habbit of doing that btw

I watched his matches too. He was in control and he played a strategically poor third set. He had no energy in the fourth and fifth…

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I watched his matches too. He was in control and he played a strategically poor third set. He had no energy in the fourth and fifth…

That proves my point he played a bad third set, and should have won in 3 sets.
I mean we all saw what happened at the AO again when he was in control of Rafa' and let that slip and ended up losing?

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Hopefully it is just a bug, and he will be back to full strength for the USO, he has played good solid tennis all week not dropped a set to get to the final
These things can happen, at any time to any player.,just take the good with the bad and move on.

 

[Kieran]

That proves my point he played a bad third set, and should have won in 3 sets.
I mean we all saw what happened at the AO again when he was in control of Rafa' and let that slip and ended up losing?

He didn’t play a bad third set, he played strategically the wrong way, given his obvious fatigue. Funny enough, he played the way he played in the opening 2 sets, but in my humble opinion, he was playing with less energy, so he’d have been wise to focus solely on holding his serve and taking wild Hail Mary swings at everything on Sinner’s serve.

Worst that would happen is that they go into a tiebreak, where again his serve would make him favourite. He wasted what little energy he had left trying to compete as fully in the third as he had in the first 2 sets.

It’s Sampras 101. But Meddy can’t be faulted for playing the way he did, though it killed him…