Cincinnati Masters 2023, Ohio, US - ATP Masters 1000

[Moxie]

Agree with your comments that Charly upped his game in the final with Novak, ,yes I thought he would win in straight sets, a few UFE from Charly towards the end of the 2nd set , headed for a TB and we all witness the final TB of the match, overall happy with his performance going into the USO.

Yes, IMO, Charly is peaking for the USO pretty nicely, and his performance in the final at least scared Novak enough to be effective, against Novak, most importantly, but the field, as well.

Seeing I did not have Courier as a commentator on my stream, I was amazed that Novak was allowed a 2nd break, though another poster told me, yesterday that Courier did clarified the kit change was allowable due to a heat rule.

At first he said there was no "heat rule" in the ATP, as there is in the WTA, but then his producers came back and corrected, via the ATP, so I think that kit change was about the heat rule.

As to the coaching, I think we all agree around here we're against it. I have a friend who texts with me during matches and she's always asking me what Juan Carlos is saying to Charly during the matches. Honestly, it's not much more than encouragement, but there are suggestions. Same with maybe Novak's box making suggestions. It's not stuff that they certainly haven't already gone over prior to the match, and endlessly in training sessions. I seriously doubt that there are major strategy changes happening in the middle of a match due to the coaching. I don't pay much attention to it, but my friend drives me crazy by endlessly trying to get me to translate it. That distracts me from the match. That would be my major objection, if I'm being honest. Now we have the commentators talking too much AND the box talking. Everyone should just shut up, if you ask me. Ah, for the days when tennis was a more hushed sport.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Yes, IMO, Charly is peaking for the USO pretty nicely, and his performance in the final at least scared Novak enough to be effective, against Novak, most importantly, but the field, as well.

At first he said there was no "heat rule" in the ATP, as there is in the WTA, but then his producers came back and corrected, via the ATP, so I think that kit change was about the heat rule.

As to the coaching, I think we all agree around here we're against it. I have a friend who texts with me during matches and she's always asking me what Juan Carlos is saying to Charly during the matches. Honestly, it's not much more than encouragement, but there are suggestions. Same with maybe Novak's box making suggestions. It's not stuff that they certainly haven't already gone over prior to the match, and endlessly in training sessions. I seriously doubt that there are major strategy changes happening in the middle of a match due to the coaching. I don't pay much attention to it, but my friend drives me crazy by endlessly trying to get me to translate it. That distracts me from the match. That would be my major objection, if I'm being honest. Now we have the commentators talking too much AND the box talking. Everyone should just shut up, if you ask me. Ah, for the days when tennis was a more hushed sport.

Well I do understand some Spanish though frankly they talk too fast for me, also at times when Italian's are playing and being fluent in Italian, talk too fast and I miss what they are saying.Half the time I think it is just 'encouragement' as coaches would have gone over tactics to their players before they take the court.
I agree I also long for the days when tennis was more a hushed sport........

 

[the AntiPusher]

Hey brother, there’s people who might complain here about whataboutism, but I agree with you. I agree with whataboutism too. It’s how we establish precedent in law which is a foundation stone in ensuring that justice is blind - and consistent. So when somebody uses whataboutism in a proper way, I agree with them.

I agree with you about Rafa and the time clock. I’ve always said so. The umpire ought to call him on it. Do I think Rafa is deliberately trying to hold up his opponent? Largely, no. I just think he’s teeming with so many tics and OCD mannerisms that he has to slide rule his water bottles, pull at his shirt and adjust his headband, and tug at his arsenal. It’s up to the umpire to intercede and I don’t complain when he does.

Especially when Rafa is going full frontal and chugging at his private member’s bill, I think the umpire really needs to tell him that ‘Hey fella, you’re not Elvis, we’re not filming you from the waist up - PLAY!’

But Novak knows the rules too. He knows how many toilet breaks and then he knows there’s a costume change permitted too. Umpire is only going to be able to confirm this. And Novak is going to take his damn time about it, the hell with his opponent. He knows it causes disruption while also giving him time to regroup. He’s been faking injuries and manufacturing strategic MTO’s for years now.

And sorry, I know that this are considered legit because he claims he needs to use the toilet or he needs to change his shirt, but we know what his real aim is…

The cramps is still something that needs to be explored deeper..

 

[Kieran]

The cramps is still something that needs to be explored deeper..

Absolutely. Rafa ran into physical issues too when he was pushing himself too hard when he was young. Wiser scheduling and also mental preparation would help, among other things such as diet and supplements…

 

[the AntiPusher]

Absolutely. Rafa ran into physical issues too when he was pushing himself too hard when he was young. Wiser scheduling and also mental preparation would help, among other things such as diet and supplements…

Isn't it funny how Daniil NEVER gets injured but has to deal with those mental situations which I guess is mental cramps.. jajaja

 

[Kieran]

Isn't it funny how Daniil NEVER gets injured but has to deal with those mental situations which I guess is mental cramps.. jajaja

Danii isn’t at that level, never was. Nobody ever expected Danii to win every time he plays a goat. For Carlos now, losing the other night is considered a bad result by a lot of people. Danii never reached that stage..

 

[Fiero425]

Danii isn’t at that level, never was. Nobody ever expected Danii to win every time he plays a goat. For Carlos now, losing the other night is considered a bad result by a lot of people. Danii never reached that stage..

Daniil is still a "tough out" for Djokovic! He takes Novak to the limit; esp. in BO3 matches on HC! I was one who believed he needed to be upset before the 2021 USO final when Djk's CYGS was on the line! Novak's been overcoming him since, but it's been a war each time! Medvedev must match up well like Stan Wawrinka! Carlos' even more dangerous who barely gives anything away; if anything he steals plenty of points off his opponents!

 

[kskate2]

Hello all. Like Mox, I had to drop in the Chi and missed all the weekend matches. Unlike Susan, I have not had an opportunity to watch the replay, so I'll need context on how Charlie gave up the lead in the 2nd set.

What does this win mean in the larger scheme? Will it give Djoke confidence if he faces Chuck in NY or does he not take much away from it because it's BO3 not BO5?

 

[the AntiPusher]

Hello all. Like Mox, I had to drop in the Chi and missed all the weekend matches. Unlike Susan, I have not had an opportunity to watch the replay, so I'll need context on how Charlie gave up the lead in the 2nd set.

What does this win mean in the larger scheme? Will it give Djoke confidence if he faces Chuck in NY or does he not take much away from it because it's BO3 not BO5?

Hello Keli, It was another simple case of Novak's rope a dope which Carlitos lost focused for a few games in the 2nd set which allowed Novak to gather his 2nd wind and Charlie's dehydration issues resurfaced at the end.

 

[Kieran]

Hello all. Like Mox, I had to drop in the Chi and missed all the weekend matches. Unlike Susan, I have not had an opportunity to watch the replay, so I'll need context on how Charlie gave up the lead in the 2nd set.

What does this win mean in the larger scheme? Will it give Djoke confidence if he faces Chuck in NY or does he not take much away from it because it's BO3 not BO5?

I think Djoker is bound to take confidence from it, but he won’t take anything for granted. He knows he held up his end of things - barely - but Carlos was exceptional too. Carlos learns things incredibly quick, so since Paris didn’t influence him at Wimbledon - and it was a much worse experience - we have every reason to expect that Carlos will take the positives from this, and work to eradicate the negatives from his game in future..

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

What impressed me with Charly was he 'upped his game' against Novak, in the final, that's what great players do, they have that ability, when their previous form in matches, tournaments, have been missing.
Quite frankly I thought he would win in straight sets, it was a couple of UFE from him late in the 2nd set, and it went to a TB, again in the final set he lifted even though he lost the match.
Charly can take positives going into the USO, where he will have his biggest task to date in his young career, to defend his Grand Slam title
BTW Darren Cahill was saying he thought the courts at the USO this year are playing slower than last year.

 

[Moxie]

Hello all. Like Mox, I had to drop in the Chi and missed all the weekend matches. Unlike Susan, I have not had an opportunity to watch the replay, so I'll need context on how Charlie gave up the lead in the 2nd set.

What does this win mean in the larger scheme? Will it give Djoke confidence if he faces Chuck in NY or does he not take much away from it because it's BO3 not BO5?

I don't 100% agree with the AP or Kieran recaps for you. As to the 2nd set, Charly dropped the ball when trying to close out the 2nd set. He had Novak on the ropes. Whatever controversy about Novak's 2nd wind, Alcaraz allowed him the time to get it.

That said, even though Alcaraz lost in the end, I still think advantage Alcaraz for the USO. He lost the battle of wits and elements in this final, but he's way under Novak's skin. He fought tooth and nail for that 3rd. And most importantly, he stepped up his level in a big way before the USO. Given that they can only meet in the final there, Alcaraz made a big argument for making it to the final, and Djokovic looked vulnerable much of that match. The field will take some heart in feeling that Novak can be that vulnerable, and less so that Charly is, unless they wear him down, and good luck with that.

 

[Kieran]

I don't 100% agree with the AP or Kieran recaps for you. As to the 2nd set, Charly dropped the ball when trying to close out the 2nd set. He had Novak on the ropes. Whatever controversy about Novak's 2nd wind, Alcaraz allowed him the time to get it.

Of course. But this is where I’m probably alone among Carlos admirers for taking account of his youth and inexperience when he struggles. I think we’re expecting him to be too perfect too fast. He’s got a lot to learn, and he’s learning it in real time. Remember, in the third set Novak bunched 5 match points too. This is the ebb and flow of great matches. But Carlos recovered in the third, after his lapse in the second. If anything, it’s the chance to pass Novak at the net at 6-all in the tiebreak that I regret. He had it open down the line but he guessed wrong and hit it straight back at Novak.

But funny enough, @Fiero425 mentioned after the match the possibility of Carlos losing early in America, and although I don’t it will happen, I think it’s not impossible. It could be a farsighted call by the Historian, who’s watched tennis even longer than me. Longer than Rod Laver too, I think . These things aren’t strange in young players. Becker at Wimbledon in 1987 being an example. It was impossible, but it happened. Why? Because he was too young to carry the weight of expectation everyone dumped on him.

I don’t think it’ll happen with Carlos, because amid the intensity and fire, he has a light personality too, but all his 3 set matches, his bp conversion rate in some of them, were symptoms that he wasn’t quite there in his usual way, which generally means a youngster is processing a lot of stuff..

 

[kskate2]

I don't 100% agree with the AP or Kieran recaps for you. As to the 2nd set, Charly dropped the ball when trying to close out the 2nd set. He had Novak on the ropes. Whatever controversy about Novak's 2nd wind, Alcaraz allowed him the time to get it.

That said, even though Alcaraz lost in the end, I still think advantage Alcaraz for the USO. He lost the battle of wits and elements in this final, but he's way under Novak's skin. He fought tooth and nail for that 3rd. And most importantly, he stepped up his level in a big way before the USO. Given that they can only meet in the final there, Alcaraz made a big argument for making it to the final, and Djokovic looked vulnerable much of that match. The field will take some heart in feeling that Novak can be that vulnerable, and less so that Charly is, unless they wear him down, and good luck with that.

OK. So he couldn't put Djoke away when he was clearly on the ropes. Not the first time Djoke has escaped and probably won't be the last. But like someone mentioned before, he learns quickly, so just maybe he'll be in that position again and he'll learn from that prior lesson.

 

[the AntiPusher]

OK. So he couldn't put Djoke away when he was clearly on the ropes. Not the first time Djoke has escaped and probably won't be the last. But like someone mentioned before, he learns quickly, so just maybe he'll be in that position again and he'll learn from that prior lesson.

It's ONLY Cincy no big deal..3 months away from the return of Rafa..

 

[Moxie]

Of course. But this is where I’m probably alone among Carlos admirers for taking account of his youth and inexperience when he struggles. I think we’re expecting him to be too perfect too fast. He’s got a lot to learn, and he’s learning it in real time. Remember, in the third set Novak bunched 5 match points too. This is the ebb and flow of great matches. But Carlos recovered in the third, after his lapse in the second. If anything, it’s the chance to pass Novak at the net at 6-all in the tiebreak that I regret. He had it open down the line but he guessed wrong and hit it straight back at Novak.

You're not alone in taking into account his youth and inexperience. I simply don't feel I need to reiterate every time. That's what I meant when I said he lost the battle of "wits and elements." The elements were crushing Novak, but, as the commies kept saying, handling the elements is about experience. I absolutely don't expect him to be too perfect too fast. He's coming along nicely! I actually thought you made an interesting point earlier, as to maybe not the USO repeat, but that Novak should watch out for where Carlitos is by the next AO. He's learning as fast as that computer in "War Games," if that's not too '80s a film reference.

But funny enough, @Fiero425 mentioned after the match the possibility of Carlos losing early in America, and although I don’t it will happen, I think it’s not impossible. It could be a farsighted call by the Historian, who’s watched tennis even longer than me. Longer than Rod Laver too, I think . These things aren’t strange in young players. Becker at Wimbledon in 1987 being an example. It was impossible, but it happened. Why? Because he was too young to carry the weight of expectation everyone dumped on him.

I don’t think it’ll happen with Carlos, because amid the intensity and fire, he has a light personality too, but all his 3 set matches, his bp conversion rate in some of them, were symptoms that he wasn’t quite there in his usual way, which generally means a youngster is processing a lot of stuff..

I think that you're right, especially in the bolded above. He's carrying the burden of expectation rather lightly. Mostly. He seems to be still having fun. It's a winning aspect to his on-court personality, and it brings winning, indeed. Compare that to the scowling and griping of the Crown Princes, etc. And hey, lest we forget, Charly has 2 Majors, which already puts him in elite company. He's over-achieving for his age. And time is on his side.

 

[Kieran]

You're not alone in taking into account his youth and inexperience. I simply don't feel I need to reiterate every time.

But in a match like this, this is what it’s about. His inexperience let him down, which means he’s really beyond criticism for losing that second set. Once he’s making an effort, and not cheating, he’s doing okay. And we all know he was never going to be the player who’d cheat in that match.

I actually thought you made an interesting point earlier, as to maybe not the USO repeat, but that Novak should watch out for where Carlitos is by the next AO.

I hope so, anyway! I definitely feel that if Carlos wins the USO, and especially if he defeats Novak, then the Big 3 are finished winning slams.

I think that you're right, especially in the bolded above. He's carrying the burden of expectation rather lightly. Mostly. He seems to be still having fun. It's a winning aspect to his on-court personality, and it brings winning, indeed.

Yeah I think he has that bonus in that it’s not crushing him, though it is affecting him. Becker was a different type, part of him was attracted by the glitz and the bright lights, and eventually he didn’t know himself. He was being used and manipulated by others. He was lost. And he was lost to the extent that he ended up in prison. To me, that’s how badly Becker’s transition to sudden superstardom was handled. I have sympathy for him.

Carlos has his family with him, great relationship with his coach. He has support the way Rafa did, which is great for him. You get the feeling that if he ever wants to vent, he’s got plenty of outlets, but also if he ever became starry (very unlikely!) he has people there who’ll burst his bubble.

Compare that to the scowling and griping of the Crown Princes, etc. And hey, lest we forget, Charly has 2 Majors, which already puts him in elite company. He's over-achieving for his age. And time is on his side.

And if he becomes our next favourite, we don’t even need to change our rallying cry. Vamos will do for him too!