Syria heats up some more. Russia ups the ante.

shawnbm

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I think Israel is not going to hesitate one bit on any perceived threat. They rarely do and Netanyahu won't, as there is too much going on to the north and south. Things getting tight around there, and worrisome. Everybody has got to step back here. Thus can spiral out of control very quickly.
 

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Unfortunately, Netanyahu's idea of a perceived threat includes a country looking to defend it's borders and airspace from Israeli aggression.
 

britbox

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Got to ask a question of my american friends also,

When exactly will the United States of America start putting the needs of it's own people before the needs of Israel?

I read that financial support for Israel was going to be enshrined in law... money guaranteed even before budgeting for the American population... Is this true?

You look at the situation in Detroit and must surely think charity begins at home?
 

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britbox said:
I read that financial support for Israel was going to be enshrined in law... money guaranteed even before budgeting for the American population... Is this true?

That would be very bizarre if it's the case. Do you have a link on that? I believe you, but I'd like to read about it. By the way, I don't blame Israel for being bullish down there. They're surrounded by nut-jobs since the state was founded. However, now that the Big Boys have begun throwing shapes as well as weapons in the region, Israel may find itself out of its depth fairly soon.

shawnbm said:
Israel has stated in unequivocal terms they will destroy such weapons making their way into Syria

Shawn, did Israel say they would destroy all weapons coming in, or just the Russian weapons? Because the Americans are arming monsters, if they arm the rebels...
 

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britbox said:
Got to ask a question of my american friends also,

When exactly will the United States of America start putting the needs of it's own people before the needs of Israel?

I read that financial support for Israel was going to be enshrined in law... money guaranteed even before budgeting for the American population... Is this true?

You look at the situation in Detroit and must surely think charity begins at home?

I'm not entirely sure where all of this anti-Israel stuff comes from. We Americans are simply protecting a democratic island in a sea of authoritarianism. Does anyone really believe that if the US stopped providing aid to Israel the Muslim countries would not invade? Of course they would. In fact, one can say that US support of Israel is likely preventing an all out war in the region. The issue in Syria and Egypt really has nothing to do with Israel. The people of these countries are simply tired of living under authoritarian regimes.

As far as Detroit is concerned, most of us in the US do not want to help them since they are the ones who created their economic mess. Generous pensions, excessive spending, and political corruption have all led to this mess. If the rest of us bailed out Detroit they would simply go back to doing the same thing they did before.

We like to talk about corporate welfare and Wall Street cronyism, which is all true, but we often overlook the fact that the organized interests of public unions and politicians is just as corrupt. Is it no surprise that the generous pensions elected officials gave their public workers is the direct result of the unions electing these people to office. How could city officials negotiate in good faith if the strongest supporters (support in the form of campaign contributions and grassroots lobbying) are the ones who are going to receive these contracts? It's insider trading with public funding.
 

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Kieran said:
britbox said:
I read that financial support for Israel was going to be enshrined in law... money guaranteed even before budgeting for the American population... Is this true?

That would be very bizarre if it's the case. Do you have a link on that? I believe you, but I'd like to read about it. By the way, I don't blame Israel for being bullish down there. They're surrounded by nut-jobs since the state was founded. However, now that the Big Boys have begun throwing shapes as well as weapons in the region, Israel may find itself out of its depth fairly soon.

shawnbm said:
Israel has stated in unequivocal terms they will destroy such weapons making their way into Syria

Shawn, did Israel say they would destroy all weapons coming in, or just the Russian weapons? Because the Americans are arming monsters, if they arm the rebels...

The article I was referring to mentioned that Israel would destroy the surface to air weapons, which is to say the weapons coming from Russia. Whether the article is accurate or not, I can't vouch for. But, like you, I can understand Israel doing that. They are surrounded by nations and people who publicly avow Israel must be annihilated. That gives the Israelis a reason to be worried in my view as well. My referencing Netanyahu is because I don't think he will wait unnecessarily; the stakes are too high. Frankly, I can't believe Israel is comfortable with Obama arming rebel forces in Syria, but who knows what is being discussed amongst them secretly.

As for what britbox asked, I honestly don't know but do know many folks in this country want to see the economic support for Israel scaled way back ..way back. Some of it has an anti-Jewish animus to it, but others simply believe, as you say, charity starts at home. For my part, I think Israel has been the recipient of an awful lot of support and is more than capable of defending itself against what currently surrounds it. Now, getting into a shoving match with Russia is an entirely different situation altogether.
 

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The stuff I read about the Israel financial support was a while back after the AIPAC conference. I can't find the article I read, but here are a couple of others that relate to it.

http://politicalcorrection.org/fpmatters/201110180005

http://www.policymic.com/articles/8919/ron-paul-dissents-on-house-bill-for-unlimited-military-aid-for-israel-shows-why-he-s-a-true-leader
 

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The Zionist are the aggressors and don't see american as friend but merely a dumb tool to exploit. It's all out there folks, read your recent history.
 

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huntingyou said:
The Zionist are the aggressors and don't see american as friend but merely a dumb tool to exploit. It's all out there folks, read your recent history.

I bet it's all in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, eh?

This article here sums up a general feeling I have about people who blame the "Zionists..."
 

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Asmodeus said:
britbox said:
Got to ask a question of my american friends also,

When exactly will the United States of America start putting the needs of it's own people before the needs of Israel?

I read that financial support for Israel was going to be enshrined in law... money guaranteed even before budgeting for the American population... Is this true?

You look at the situation in Detroit and must surely think charity begins at home?

I'm not entirely sure where all of this anti-Israel stuff comes from. We Americans are simply protecting a democratic island in a sea of authoritarianism. Does anyone really believe that if the US stopped providing aid to Israel the Muslim countries would not invade? Of course they would. In fact, one can say that US support of Israel is likely preventing an all out war in the region. The issue in Syria and Egypt really has nothing to do with Israel. The people of these countries are simply tired of living under authoritarian regimes.

As far as Detroit is concerned, most of us in the US do not want to help them since they are the ones who created their economic mess. Generous pensions, excessive spending, and political corruption have all led to this mess. If the rest of us bailed out Detroit they would simply go back to doing the same thing they did before.

We like to talk about corporate welfare and Wall Street cronyism, which is all true, but we often overlook the fact that the organized interests of public unions and politicians is just as corrupt. Is it no surprise that the generous pensions elected officials gave their public workers is the direct result of the unions electing these people to office. How could city officials negotiate in good faith if the strongest supporters (support in the form of campaign contributions and grassroots lobbying) are the ones who are going to receive these contracts? It's insider trading with public funding.

Suggesting the US puts it's own citizens ahead of the citizens of Israel is anti-Israeli? Really?? How many politicians on the campaign trail talk about the great things they are going to do in Tel Aviv?

There is nothing wrong with alliances by the way but I see a lot of money going to defence contractors, the armed forces and allies overseas... while American cities and states are going broke financially and with their infrastructure crumbling.

You suggest leave them be... it's their fault. That may be the case in some respects, but do you think those politicians, union officials and corrupt bodies are the ones picking up the tab now in Detroit? My guess, is they left town long ago. They aren't the ones dealing with the fallout. Surely a federal aid package and a reasonable plan to get Detroit on it's feet (and by that I don't mean returning to the motor city glory days) but something more practical that has a modest future.

Still, it's not my country... I just find it bizarre to see all the money seeping out overseas when there are holes in the roof to fix.
 

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Kieran said:
huntingyou said:
The Zionist are the aggressors and don't see american as friend but merely a dumb tool to exploit. It's all out there folks, read your recent history.

I bet it's all in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, eh?

This article here sums up a general feeling I have about people who blame the "Zionists..."

I don't know Kieran. One should be allowed to dislike the policies of Israel without hating all Jews, no? I mean , I do not like the settlement issues, I do not like the embargo to Gaza that at some point included chocolate and soccer balls:puzzled. These are not religious issues, just human issues.
 

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1972Murat said:
I don't know Kieran. One should be allowed to dislike the policies of Israel without hating all Jews, no? I mean , I do not like the settlement issues, I do not like the embargo to Gaza that at some point included chocolate and soccer balls:puzzled. These are not religious issues, just human issues.

Hey Murat,

I don't think any government is immune from failures, and most especially in a hotbed like the Middle East. I also disagree with a lot of Israeli behaviour, but when I hear the "Zionist" talk? I think it's just a cover for an ancient hatred. You hear it a lot in the west, and it's akin to a guy starting a conversation by saying, "I'm not a racist, but..."

Well actually, most likely that person is a racist...
 

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Kieran said:
1972Murat said:
I don't know Kieran. One should be allowed to dislike the policies of Israel without hating all Jews, no? I mean , I do not like the settlement issues, I do not like the embargo to Gaza that at some point included chocolate and soccer balls:puzzled. These are not religious issues, just human issues.

Hey Murat,

I don't think any government is immune from failures, and most especially in a hotbed like the Middle East. I also disagree with a lot of Israeli behaviour, but when I hear the "Zionist" talk? I think it's just a cover for an ancient hatred. You hear it a lot in the west, and it's akin to a guy starting a conversation by saying, "I'm not a racist, but..."

Well actually, most likely that person is a racist...

That's true, the Zionist talk can get stale. I know what you mean. But I am also annoyed by the extremely convenient label of "anti-semite" whenever someone opens his mouth to say something against the state of Israel. I am an atheist. I dislike all religions equally...;)
 

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Kieran said:
huntingyou said:
The Zionist are the aggressors and don't see american as friend but merely a dumb tool to exploit. It's all out there folks, read your recent history.

I bet it's all in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, eh?

This article here sums up a general feeling I have about people who blame the "Zionists..."

Your take in this matter it's irrelevant to me, as it's clear as water that you do not understand nor have the disposition to open your eyes.

calling someone anti-semite when pointing out the crimes of the ruling mafia in Israel is not inviting to intelligent discussion. The jewish anti-defamation league has done a good number on the sheeps....their mouth piece in the MS media it's quickly to oblige.

The term alone anti-semite is an insult to arabs since MOST jewish people today, certainly the ruling and banking class are not semite themselves but asian/eastern european.

I speak with facts in my hands, I will tell you again to study your history and then get back to me. Take a look at who control the media, Hollywood, financial position of power and finally, KEY government position...like treasury, FED, regulatory comisions an so on.

The number one threat to national secrets are always the zionists, most spies; physically and cybernetically happen to be them and that's a fact. Funny, the country that spend 9 billions dollars directly in aid plus many more billions indirectly while providing political international cover at the UN security council for your standing violation to NPT and crimes against humanity still needs to protect itself from your tentacles within.

This is a topic where you better bring your A game my friend. I will say again, learn your history.......start with 1948 and after you understand this then backtrack all the way back to Roman times if you wish. I have no pity for those who through ignorance or religious zealotry blindy backs a regime that has no problem murdering women and children in a systematic way and then play the victim card when their men hit back with stones.
 

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I once read a bit of Dan Brown on a beach, but I didn't like it. Is this the history you studied?
 

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Kieran said:
I once read a bit of Dan Brown on a beach, but I didn't like it. Is this the history you studied?

:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing

is this you covering up your shortcomings with bland humour? :nono

I actually had to do a thesis on this topic for my international affairs studies Masters, some of the reading I used was actually provided by the prof. himself.

Tell me what do you disagree with and I might help you; so far I have only provided facts........or do you think israelis spies are science fiction as well? Do you know how many standing violations of UN laws I.E international laws the state of israel is in violation of? Maybe Iran has a "reason" to arm itself......who is acting in self-defense here; the family that just had his land reposses by outsiders who claim their heritage on fairy tales or the military machine who arms itself with the latest technology and back-up by US when ever the international community wants to address the crimes?

You see, it's easy to talk all this BS and repeat whatever it's fed to you but when you do your own homework, reality suddenly it's not as pleasant isn't it?

Do you even understand the whole settlements issues, land confiscation and how strategically through the years; little by little the israeli state has tighten the noose so to speak?

"right to defend itself" says the one with the nukes, choppers, tanks, banks, food, land, and nice set of allies.

You might want to read what a jew that once called himself a zionist feels about this issue:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/why-i-am-no-longer-a-zionist-8364214.html


just in case you don't bother with actual reading.......this caught my eye from the author:

"Not only can I no longer defend any of this, I can no longer defend Zionism at all, not even in an abstract philosophical sense outside of any context involving the actions of the Israeli state. The Law of Return, under which I - an occasional tourist who just happens to be Jewish – can claim Israeli citizenship at a moment's notice, while a Palestinian actually born in, say, Haifa, but subsequently exiled cannot – that is a racist law. The notion of a Jewish state? That is – as far as it has been put into practice since 1948 - a racist notion."

interesting ah.....are you going to call him anti-semite as well? who is the actual racist? "real" jews by definition are racists......the "chosen people of God" so what are you in their eyes? The global elite agenda moves.......along
 

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Actually, you haven't provided any facts. You've just trotted out the old prejudices, falling short of blood libels and Shylock caricatures, but not far short. I'm certain that's next.

The old-fashioned notion that Jews are the scourge of decent folks everywhere is one that's not only wrong-minded, but dangerous too. Dressing it up as "history" is just the same as Dan Brown calling his tosh novels "history", even though they're based on nothing but conspiracy nutjob foam.

By the way, interesting that you picked the Independent, home to the peerless Howard Jacobson...
 

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Kieran said:
Actually, you haven't provided any facts. You've just trotted out the old prejudices, falling short of blood libels and Shylock caricatures, but not far short. I'm certain that's next.

The old-fashioned notion that Jews are the scourge of decent folks everywhere is one that's not only wrong-minded, but dangerous too. Dressing it up as "history" is just the same as Dan Brown calling his tosh novels "history", even though they're based on nothing but conspiracy nutjob foam.

By the way, interesting that you picked the Independent, home to the peerless Howard Jacobson...

You just talk like the software in your head was program to, nothing more.

I told you about the UN violations, I told you about Israel nuclear and overall military weapons, I told you about Israel's approach to the "others" in their "land" and still you screem blood libel. I told you about the NUMBER 1 SPY against OUR national secrets, I told you about the direct monetary assistance and political cover the US provides; I pointed it to you to go back to 1948 and try to understand what really happened and how the israel state came to be...I even gave you a quick read on how one ex-zionists see "his" state actions and you still cry Howard J.

If you can't even engage me at the simple facts, how can you talk about anything related to this topic?

When I talk about the state of israel or zionists, I'm not talking your average jew....just like if you talk about nazis you aren't talking about your average german so please stop this fallacy. Stand up and talk with honesty or keep it to yourself. I'm not demonizing ALL jews but just those who are.

BTW, did you have time to look into jews in position of power in the US government, financial insitutions, the media and so on? It's this science fiction too? I guess Bernaki and Greenspan weren't real as well.
 

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If you look for it, you can find Jews names throughout Hollywood. So what? It is a fact that some Jewish business leaders got together to build some studios and since there was already a strong Jewish contingent from the stage and in vaudeville acts, a natural connection was made. I know lots of bankers and there are Jews in banking, but the vast majority I know in my area are not Jewish. I know a lot of Jewish doctors, but the overwhelming number of doctors and hospital higher-ups I know are not Jewish. I am a lawyer and knows lots of Jewish lawyers, but they are but a minority of lawyers not only in the USA, but in my state (which is probably the second most Jewish state in the Union). Now, with all that said, I think it is true that a disproportionate number of Jews are in those fields compared to their numbers and perhaps to other ethnicities. But is that a necessarily Zionist or negative thing?

I find it worthy and honorable that Jewish kids are brought up to seek higher education and, in most cases, to go into business for themselves. They prize that over sports, unlike far too many in my country. They also are brought up with a love of the fine arts, by and large, so you see a disproportionate number of Jewish people playing violin, piano, cello, etc. There is nothing sinister or wrong with any of that. The Asian cultures tend to do the same thing and do it well, yet I don't see any clamoring about the Asian Illuminati running things like the level of the Jews and (at least in the case of China) we are talking about a civilization as ancient as that of the ancient Hebrews. No, there is something else at work with the Zionist talk.

I don't know why one would start in 1948--the real place to start is the buildup to the First World War and Lord Balfour and the Declaration he moved forward. The demise of the era of the Colonialists and the ancient European Empires like the Hapsburgs played a huge role in the dividing up the post-WWI mess in Palestine, Mesopotamia and in Africa. The Rothschild dynasty was greatly weakened by the Great War along with other dynasties like the Hohenzollerns, the Romanovs (well, they were executed by the Bolsheviks) and the Bourbons. USA stepped into the vacuum created by the War To End All Wars and non-Jewish folks like Ford, Edison, Flagler, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Vanderbilt, Mellon and many others really remolded the world and consolidated real economic and political power across various swaths of the globe. London and Paris slowly saw their influence wane and they were not great bastions of Jewish power to begin with. In short, I think the Zionist card is overplayed, although I concede there does exist a Zionist lobby that gets more attention than it may reasonably deserve, but what with the Holocaust and its fallout it is to be somewhat understandable that some more zealous advocates for a Jewish homeland cause would arise.
 

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shawnbm said:
If you look for it, you can find Jews names throughout Hollywood. So what? It is a fact that some Jewish business leaders got together to build some studios and since there was already a strong Jewish contingent from the stage and in vaudeville acts, a natural connection was made. I know lots of bankers and there are Jews in banking, but the vast majority I know in my area are not Jewish. I know a lot of Jewish doctors, but the overwhelming number of doctors and hospital higher-ups I know are not Jewish. I am a lawyer and knows lots of Jewish lawyers, but they are but a minority of lawyers not only in the USA, but in my state (which is probably the second most Jewish state in the Union). Now, with all that said, I think it is true that a disproportionate number of Jews are in those fields compared to their numbers and perhaps to other ethnicities. But is that a necessarily Zionist or negative thing?

Your personal experience it's irrelevant since I'm talking high ranking official level just in the US. Your mid level banker or lawyer really has nothing to do with this topic.

The word disproportionate doesn't make justice to how impossible the numbers of government officials alone to the jew population in the US really is. Safe your propaganda of "well, their parents made sure they pursue blah blah" They are not even 1% of the population yet wield incredible amount of power by numbers.......I mean, do you pay attention to the election and the pandering?


shawnbm said:
I don't know why one would start in 1948--the real place to start is the buildup to the First World War and Lord Balfour and the Declaration he moved forward. The demise of the era of the Colonialists and the ancient European Empires like the Hapsburgs played a huge role in the dividing up the post-WWI mess in Palestine, Mesopotamia and in Africa. The Rothschild dynasty was greatly weakened by the Great War along with other dynasties like the Hohenzollerns, the Romanovs (well, they were executed by the Bolsheviks) and the Bourbons. USA stepped into the vacuum created by the War To End All Wars and non-Jewish folks like Ford, Edison, Flagler, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Vanderbilt, Mellon and many others really remolded the world and consolidated real economic and political power across various swaths of the globe. London and Paris slowly saw their influence wane and they were not great bastions of Jewish power to begin with. In short, I think the Zionist card is overplayed, although I concede there does exist a Zionist lobby that gets more attention than it may reasonably deserve, but what with the Holocaust and its fallout it is to be somewhat understandable that some more zealous advocates for a Jewish homeland cause would arise.

Before 1948 there was no jewish state, that's a fact. We have to take it step by step first before trying to understand the underlying mechanics of all factions involved, especially one that has been adulterated so much by the elites.

jews weren't the only one to die during world war 2; or conflicts before or after. The american kid is brainwash to feel pity for those poor jews; hollywood up the ante a step further. Where is the Cambodian Museum or Armenian, or Russian or African or Chinese.......I can go on and on about different groups of peple that have suffered persecution and targeted execution.

"Ford, Edison, Flagler, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Vanderbilt, Mellon" :laydownlaughing
yep, you definitely know some names; a shame you stop at the main stream media version of their deeds and aspirations.