Rogers Cup 2023, Toronto, Canada - ATP Masters 1000

Kieran

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In such a hypothetical, that would be an interesting career and worth of debate regarding greatness. In my view, such a player would indeed be far greater than a player with one Slam but nothing else. I mean, we already have somewhat similar comparisons: Zverev vs. someone like Gaudio or Johansson. Zverev is a far greater player than those two were, even if he never wins a Slam. I'm sure he'd trade his trophies, but that doesn't necessarily equate with greatness, as far as analyzing the quality and level of play over time.
We have Rios, a world number one, not an achievement to be scoffed at. And yet, how do we think of Rios? We compare him only against the best and never accept that his reaching the top means anything…
 
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don_fabio

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You ask Sinner or Sissy - would you prefer to finish your career with 20 MS titles or 1 GS? A player hasn’t achieved greatness until they tick off a GS title - and that’s only their starting point.
Last week I found a quote from Tsitsipas saying that he would rather achieve no.1 position than win a slam. No wonder he doesn't have one slam so far.

Then I found a quote from Rune who said just the opposite. He would take a slam instead of no.1 and he will.

If they finish their career with 20 MS titles and no slams, that only emphasises their shortcomings..
and how they choked when it mattered the most. No one remembers Masters winners. The term slam winner goes with a number before it which tells how great this player is. You win a slam 1 time and you are already part of the history.
 

Moxie

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Last week I found a quote from Tsitsipas saying that he would rather achieve no.1 position than win a slam. No wonder he doesn't have one slam so far.

Then I found a quote from Rune who said just the opposite. He would take a slam instead of no.1 and he will.
If Tsitsipas really thinks that, then he really IS just a pretty face. Such a superficial choice. Plus, who wants to be known as a Slamless #1? Fiero mentioned just the other day that Dinara Safina was one, and that was 14 years ago. Ignominious legacy, around these parts. Rios was also a slamless #1, IIRC.

Rune has the right idea. As Rafa always said, and I believe he meant this earnestly (at least most of the time,) he didn't care about #1. Get the results, and the #1 will take care of itself. It's the better attitude, IMO.
...and how they choked when it mattered the most. No one remembers Masters winners. The term slam winner goes with a number before it which tells how great this player is. You win a slam 1 time and you are already part of the history.
There is a lot of truth in this. I'd already forgotten that Coric won Cincy last year, (forgive me, as he is your fellow Croat,) and I pay a lot of attention. Sinner winning in Toronto is a big deal for him. A 1000 is a great title, and considered a "Big Title," as they often seem to be laid out these days. However, from what I can tell, everyone feels it's a stepping stone for Sinner. If he doesn't win a Slam, there will be disappointment.
 
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Fiero425

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Last week I found a quote from Tsitsipas saying that he would rather achieve no.1 position than win a slam. No wonder he doesn't have one slam so far.

Then I found a quote from Rune who said just the opposite. He would take a slam instead of no.1 and he will.


and how they choked when it mattered the most. No one remembers Masters winners. The term slam winner goes with a number before it which tells how great this player is. You win a slam 1 time and you are already part of the history.

Back in the day winning majors usually took care of the race to #1, but not always as evidenced by Vilas & Orantes who didn't get much of a sniff of the top ranks even after winning their majors! Orantes won the 1975 USO over Connors, but didn't get above #4 in the world until much later @ #2! Vilas won 2 majors in '77; FO & USO, but Borg was KING and held #1 w/ just his Wimbledon victory! A major's still just 1 tournament & only gets you so many points & money, but it means a lot to a player & their country! Serbia only has 2 Int'l sports champions, but they're at the top of their resp. games; Novak in tennis & Nikola Jokić in the NBA (Basketball)! :fearful-face: :yawningface: :face-with-head-bandage: :face-with-hand-over-mouth:
 
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Moxie

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Back in the day winning majors usually took care of the race to #1, but not always as evidenced by Vilas & Orantes who didn't get much of a sniff of the top ranks even after winning their majors! Orantes won the 1975 USO over Connors, but never got above #4 in the world IIRC! Vilas won 2 majors in '77; FO & USO, but Borg was KING and held #1 w/ just his Wimbledon victory!
Vilas had more than a "sniff" at #1. There's a huge controversy over whether he was robbed of #1, which everyone seems to recognize but the ATP.
A major's still just 1 tournament & only gets you so many points & money, but it means a lot to a player & their country! Serbia only has 2 Int'l sports champions, but they're at the top of their resp. games; Novak in tennis & Nikola Jokić in the NBA (Basketball)! :fearful-face: :yawningface: :face-with-head-bandage: :face-with-hand-over-mouth:
This is a good point. In the US, tennis gets drowned out by other sports, generally. But in many other countries, winning a Major in tennis makes you a superstar. Obviously, Serbia has a couple of big sports superstars on the international stage, Look at Li Na and how she's influenced Chinese tennis.
 

rafanoy1992

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If Tsitsipas really thinks that, then he really IS just a pretty face. Such a superficial choice. Plus, who wants to be known as a Slamless #1? Fiero mentioned just the other day that Dinara Safina was one, and that was 14 years ago. Ignominious legacy, around these parts. Rios was also a slamless #1, IIRC.

Rune has the right idea. As Rafa always said, and I believe he meant this earnestly (at least most of the time,) he didn't care about #1. Get the results, and the #1 will take care of itself. It's the better attitude, IMO.

There is a lot of truth in this. I'd already forgotten that Coric won Cincy last year, (forgive me, as he is your fellow Croat,) and I pay a lot of attention. Sinner winning in Toronto is a big deal for him. A 1000 is a great title, and considered a "Big Title," as they often seem to be laid out these days. However, from what I can tell, everyone feels it's a stepping stone for Sinner. If he doesn't win a Slam, there will be disappointment.
Watching Sinner since 2021 season, he has high ambitions on himself and his career. He might not show it like other players, but he wants to win those big titles and be the best version of himself. It is why I love his reaction and his team's reaction. He was happy and relieved, but the same time it is the only beginning of hopefully a great tennis career!
 
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Fiero425

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Watching Sinner since 2021 season, he has high ambitions on himself and his career. He might not show it like other players, but he wants to win those big titles and be the best version of himself. It is why I love his reaction and his team's reaction. He was happy and relieved, but the same time it is the only beginning of hopefully a great tennis career!

They're overdoing the reaction to winning every pt. out there; both Sinner & Carlito going the "fist clench" even after their opponent's dub'l faults! :facepalm:
 

El Dude

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We have Rios, a world number one, not an achievement to be scoffed at. And yet, how do we think of Rios? We compare him only against the best and never accept that his reaching the top means anything…
I think part of the problem is that most folks tend to think of the very top (and the GOAT question), and of course Rios doesn't belong in the conversation. But how would you compare him to Gaudio or Johansson? It is easy to say Novak > Andy Murray > Marcelo Rios, but what about players closer together? All the factors matter, when you want more than subjectivity and faulty memory or, worse yet, Slam Absolutism.

I talk baseball with my 81-year old father, who thinks a player is as good as he is in the single at-bat that he watches him hit. Seemingly he doesn't understand that in a baseball season, a player bats 600-700 times (sometimes more, sometimes less). So he forms an impression based on what statisticians call "small sample size," which in turn is filtered through very selective memory. But the fact is, the worst hitter in baseball can have a better at-bat than a bad one from the best hitter. Happens a lot, actually.

When people think of Pete Sampras, they remember select moments and a general impression of those moments added up. And then they look up and see "14 Slams." But memory and "14 Slams" only tell part of the story.
 

El Dude

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The term slam winner goes with a number before it which tells how great this player is. You win a slam 1 time and you are already part of the history.
The second sentence is true, but the first is just absurd. No, it is not that simple. That's what I call "Slam Absolutism." You cannot simply make a list of players by Slam count and then rank them that way. That is hugely simplistic and leads to such absurdities as "Jan Kodes was greater than Ilie Nastase" or "Johan Kriek was greater than Vitas Gerulaitis."
 

Nadalfan2013

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In 100 years history will just remember that Nadal had 2 gold medals at the Olympics and Djokovic only had 1 bronze with many broken rackets. The Olympics is the ultimate achievement for athletes, bigger and more iconic than any tennis title. People and sports fans will just go to the Olympics website and check the stats there. :clap: :bye:
 
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atttomole

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How many times did Roger win the Rogers Cup?