Nitto ATP Finals 2024, Turin, Italy

[Moxie]

He got to #4 late in 2010, and finished the year #5, a few points away from Murray. He started 2011 by winning Brisbane (guess he got the #4 spot back then). In July he was already completely out due to mono. It is obvious that he was feeling the effects of it before that.

It is a fact that he was already mixing up with Murray when he was stopped by mono. People might disagree on what he would next, but he was a factor, not a promise.

In my personal opinion, his overall level was extremely high by the end of 2010, and he would climb even more on the rankings.

He had basically 2 good years. Yes, he was finally coming good on his talent when mono ended his career, but he wasn't THAT much a factor, besides 2 big upsets at the French, which got him to the finals each of those years, but he went down in straights both times. He had 4 other QF finishes at Majors. Of his 10 total titles, 7 were at 250s, 2 at 500s. 1 MS 1000 (in Paris, which loves an odd winner.)

Look, it's all just conjecture, and you're entitled to your opinion, but I still think there's too much projection from too small a sample. I agree with @El Dude that he might have been able to flesh out that group, with del Potro, that Murray occupied alone, but not a lot more. And you can think he might have usurped Murray, but Murray was very sturdy and reliable, which Soderling was not. You have to consider the ages/state of the big 3 at that point. And the mentality of Soderling. Yes, Wawarinka won 3 Majors late career, beating Big 3 players, by getting tougher mentally. But his problem was belief. Soderling had anger management issues, and an ability to self-sabotage. Improved results tamped that somewhat, but there's nothing to say he was past it.

There is a bit of a cult of Robin Soderling amongst some, with the wondering of "what if." Front suffers from it, too. I still think there's not enough of a sample to make too much more of him. To me, he found his high watermark as a spoiler.

 

[Moxie]

I have always thought the Federer-Djokovic battles on the grass courts of Wimbledon in 2014 and 2019 were better matches quality-wise than the 2008 final. Roger really felt deflated losing with two championship points on his service. I don't think anyone could believe that would have happened if they were asked to bet on it. Federer had been the better player up to those two points, which was astounding in and of itself.

It's a matter of taste, I guess. The 2014 one was a very close match, but rather quick at under 4 hours, for a tight 5-setter. I like the contrast in styles better between Federer and Nadal, and it was a very high-quality match, the 2008 final, make no mistake. Superb rallies, great shot-making, and loads of drama. That match made the actual cover of the NY Times, and merited its own documentary. I don't see a great deal of revisiting either of those Djokovic-Federer finals.

 

[Fiero425]

He had basically 2 good years. Yes, he was finally coming good on his talent when mono ended his career, but he wasn't THAT much a factor, besides 2 big upsets at the French, which got him to the finals each of those years, but he went down in straights both times. He had 4 other QF finishes at Majors. Of his 10 total titles, 7 were at 250s, 2 at 500s. 1 MS 1000 (in Paris, which loves an odd winner.)

Look, it's all just conjecture, and you're entitled to your opinion, but I still think there's too much projection from too small a sample. I agree with @El Dude that he might have been able to flesh out that group, with del Potro, that Murray occupied alone, but not a lot more. And you can think he might have usurped Murray, but Murray was very sturdy and reliable, which Soderling was not. You have to consider the ages/state of the big 3 at that point. And the mentality of Soderling. Yes, Wawarinka won 3 Majors late career, beating Big 3 players, by getting tougher mentally. But his problem was belief. Soderling had anger management issues, and an ability to self-sabotage. Improved results tamped that somewhat, but there's nothing to say he was past it.

There is a bit of a cult of Robin Soderling amongst some, with the wondering of "what if." Front suffers from it, too. I still think there's not enough of a sample to make too much more of him. To me, he found his high watermark as a spoiler.

I must be part of that cult! My extreme is an honest opinion that Roger owes Robin; BIG TIME! If he hadn't bull-dozed Nadal earlier in the tourney, Roger had little hope of ever getting even 1 French Open Chp.! I thought anything less than a huge house back in Sweden bought & paid for w/ Deed in Soderling's name w/b outrageous! I'm terribly serious about that! i'm betting Roger has done something for the guy on the QT!

 

[Moxie]

I must be part of that cult! My extreme is an honest opinion that Roger owes Robin; BIG TIME! If he hadn't bull-dozed Nadal earlier in the tourney, Roger had little hope of ever getting even 1 French Open Chp.! I thought anything less than a huge house back in Sweden bought & paid for w/ Deed in Soderling's name w/b outrageous! I'm terribly serious about that! i'm betting Roger has done something for the guy on the QT!

Nobody had to pay Soderling to beat Nadal...there was revenge in that. You must have missed their just previous meeting in Rome, when Nadal beat Soderling 1 and love, in what the commentators called the tightest 6-1, 6-0 match you'll ever see. During which Soderling's head completely came off. But had Nadal's knees not been so bad, I still think it's iffy that Soderling would have capped him. But spite and malice played a role.

Roger himself said, before that RG, that if something took Rafa out of the French Open, either by upset or injury, that he'd have to seize his opportunity. He nearly didn't, when Tommy Haas had a MP, I think, over him. But he did what he had to do, and won that title, so that's what champions do.

 

[Fiero425]

Nobody had to pay Soderling to beat Nadal...there was revenge in that. You must have missed their just previous meeting in Rome, when Nadal beat Soderling 1 and love, in what the commentators called the tightest 6-1, 6-0 match you'll ever see. During which Soderling's head completely came off. But had Nadal's knees not been so bad, I still think it's iffy that Soderling would have capped him. But spite and malice played a role.

Roger himself said, before that RG, that if something took Rafa out of the French Open, either by upset or injury, that he'd have to seize his opportunity. He nearly didn't, when Tommy Haas had a MP, I think, over him. But he did what he had to do, and won that title, so that's what champions do.

It's not about getting paid, it's being "paid off!" Soderling gave Roger his chance to steal his lone French Open in '09! It's said about Novak enough during his career so Roger can "eat it" as well! Of course Nadal gets every benefit of the doubt! Whatever! As I've been saying, our opinions about the subject won't be even considered outside the "cold, hard numbers" many decades down the line! They'll be talking about Federer & Nadal like Bud Collins used to muse about Laver & Rosewall! The Tennis Intelligentsia would like to forget Djokovic, even w/ the #'s to back him! Everyone knows "Standalone" might as well be part of Novak's name as he owns any & all extraneous records out there; one's that matter to you & others that don't!

 

[mrzz]

He had basically 2 good years. Yes, he was finally coming good on his talent when mono ended his career, but he wasn't THAT much a factor, besides 2 big upsets at the French, which got him to the finals each of those years, but he went down in straights both times. He had 4 other QF finishes at Majors. Of his 10 total titles, 7 were at 250s, 2 at 500s. 1 MS 1000 (in Paris, which loves an odd winner.)

Look, it's all just conjecture, and you're entitled to your opinion, but I still think there's too much projection from too small a sample. I agree with @El Dude that he might have been able to flesh out that group, with del Potro, that Murray occupied alone, but not a lot more. And you can think he might have usurped Murray, but Murray was very sturdy and reliable, which Soderling was not. You have to consider the ages/state of the big 3 at that point. And the mentality of Soderling. Yes, Wawarinka won 3 Majors late career, beating Big 3 players, by getting tougher mentally. But his problem was belief. Soderling had anger management issues, and an ability to self-sabotage. Improved results tamped that somewhat, but there's nothing to say he was past it.

There is a bit of a cult of Robin Soderling amongst some, with the wondering of "what if." Front suffers from it, too. I still think there's not enough of a sample to make too much more of him. To me, he found his high watermark as a spoiler.

The results you posted are pretty decent, given that they were basically obtained in the two years you mentioned, his final two years. It is *not* the case that he had two random good years within a long career. He raised his level and in his final two years he was consistently on that level. If you look at his rankings curve you see it just growing. Than it is abruptly cut. It is visually obvious....

If others were able to solve underlying issues in their game later on their careers, why wouldn't he? Again, his rankings progression show that he was only getting better.

 

[Jelenafan]

The results you posted are pretty decent, given that they were basically obtained in the two years you mentioned, his final two years. It is *not* the case that he had two random good years within a long career. He raised his level and in his final two years he was consistently on that level. If you look at his rankings curve you see it just growing. Than it is abruptly cut. It is visually obvious....

If others were able to solve underlying issues in their game later on their careers, why wouldn't he? Again, his rankings progression show that he was only getting better.

Soderling had 2 good years in 2009 & 2010 and as we all know illness derailed his promising career.

Agree with the notion there is not enough out there to project he would have lept to the next level.

Let’s go back to IMO his best results, the back to back French Open finals. We all know how he impressively bested Rafa in the 4th round in 2009 but his “lets bend over for Federer” mental capitulation in the final certainly did not scream mental strength. Throughout that match he was “gone”, just happy to make the final and kiss Federer’s ass and hand him the trophy. To his credit he reached the final the next year but the decisive beatdown Rafa gave him in that final certainly wasn’t screaming future French Open champ over Rafa.

Those years his best other Grand Slam results were quarterfinals in several other Majors ( the USO & Winbledon) but never reached a SF in any of those. How do we leap from that to future greatness automatically?

BTW winning the 2010 Paris Masters, while a very good result near YE is hardly a harbinger of future Grand Slam champion certainty. Its timing begs for relative outliers with a hot streak to bust through ( Davydenko, Dimitrov, Khachanov, Sock, anyone?)

So like many many players before and after him, he had a couple of ascending years but nothing distinctly spectacular. He actually reminds me more of Thomas Berdych or Tsonga who could be very impressive on occasion when the winners just flowed from their rackets. Bending over for Federer without lube resulted in a 1-16 Federer head to head, and even his Rafa record was 2-6. For my taste Nalbandian had more talent ( he once crushed Rafa in the Paris Masters hardcourt final 6-4, 6-0) and exceptional play and we all know how that eventually played out.

Soderling’s claim ro fame was upsetting Rafa at the French Open resulting in the only year in a 10 year span (2005-2014) that Rafa did not win the French Open. Great trivia answer but that’s it.

 

[mrzz]

Soderling had 2 good years in 2009 & 2009 and as we all know illness derailed his promising career.

Agree with the notion there is not enough out there to project he would have lept to the next level.

Let’s go back to IMO his best results, the back to back French Open finals. We all know how he impressively bested Rafa in the 4th round in 2009 but his “lets bend over for Federer” mental capitulation in the final certainly did not scream mental strength. Throughout that match he was “gone”, just happy to make the final and kiss Federer’s ass and hand him the trophy. To his credit he reached the final the next year but the decisive beatdown Rafa gave him in that final certainly wasn’t screaming future French Open champ over Rafa.

Those years his best other Grand Slam results were quarterfinals in several other Majors ( the USO & Winbledon) but never reached a SF in any of those. How do we leap from that to future greatness automatically?

BTW winning the 2010 Paris Masters, while a very good result near YE is hardly a harbinger of future Grand Slam champion certainty. Its timing begs for relative outliers with a hot streak to bust through ( Davydenko, Dimitrov, Khachanov, Sock, anyone?)

So like many many players before and after him, he had a couple of ascending years but nothing distinctly spectacular. He actually reminds me more of Thomas Berdych or Tsonga who could be very impressive on occasion when the winners just flowed from their rackets. Bending over for Federer without lube resulted in a 1-16 Federer head to head, and even his Rafa record was 2-6. For my taste Nalbandian had more talent ( he once crushed Rafa in the Paris Masters hardcourt final 6-4, 6-0) and exceptional play and we all know how that eventually played out.

Soderling’s claim ro fame was upsetting Rafa at the French Open resulting in the only year in a 10 year span (2005-2014) that Rafa did not win the French Open. Great trivia answer but that’s it.

Again, how many other players had two years with 2 major finals, a lot of of QFs, one masters title? Yes, it is Paris, but the other winners did *not* backed it up with good major showings. He did. A lot of other players were beaten in their first two major finals. Losing to Nadal in an RG final is not exactly something to be ashamed of.

The discussion started with players who could stand in the way of Murray in the years to come. Soderling's 2009 and 2010 were at least as good as Murray's. Again, this is a fact. If that does not qualify as an indicator of someone who could disrupt Murray's numbers, nothing will...

And, as I said earlier: my main point with Soderling is a judgement call: his level at the end of 2010 was extremely high. That is my main indicator.