Roger Federer isn't the GOAT, and neither is Rafael Nadal nor Novak Djokovic / Bodo

tented

Administrator
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
21,611
Reactions
10,379
Points
113
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Roger Federer isn't the GOAT, and neither is Rafael Nadal nor Novak Djokovic / By Peter Bodo

Shortly after Novak Djokovic mastered Rafael Nadal at this year's Australian Open final to lock down his 15th Grand Slam singles title, the simmering GOAT debate came to a boil again. We immediately asked whether we need to start thinking about the top-ranked Serbian as the best ever. But it raised another interesting question: Is it really possible the three greatest players of all time are active right now?

Sure, it's feasible, but it's highly unlikely. This embarrassment of generational riches -- Roger Federer owns 20 major singles titles, Nadal has 17, just two more than Djokovic -- suggests our metrics for determining the GOAT are far too simplistic. The cumulative success of this trio is so overwhelming that it makes you wonder if it's even fair to compare them to their predecessors. If you acknowledge that, the GOAT debate changes drastically.

A little history is in order, because it helps us understand how we got here. Up until Pete Sampras hit his stride, most people assumed Roy Emerson's record of 12 major singles titles would not be broken in the Open era. The game had changed too much, they thought. The depth in the ATP was too great. Nobody was even bothering to play the Australian Open, where Emerson had collected six of his singles titles.

But two critical things were also happening: the rehabilitation of the Australian Open (a tournament that icons Bjorn Borg, Jimmy Connors and John McEnroe had played a combined total of just eight times in a total of 49 years of Grand Slam play) and the homogenization of the Grand Slam surfaces.

By the time Sampras emerged, it was no longer a three-Slam game. The opportunity to win a major every year increased by 25 percent. Just as important, over time, the hard courts at the US Open and Australia became medium-to-fast-paced (depending on the year), the fast grass at Wimbledon was slowed to hard-court-like speed, and the changes in equipment and court maintenance helped eliminate the dreaded clay-court specialists who once terrorized seeds at the French Open.

"One of the ingredients in the success of the Big Four, other than their being incredibly gifted, is that they don't have to adjust as much to different styles or surfaces," Tennis Channel analyst Paul Annacone, who has coached both Sampras and Federer, recently told ESPN.com. "Back in the day, the discrepancy between surfaces opened opportunities and presented challenges. Now the only thing different is the movement, but even that's changing. It used to be you'd slide on clay; now guys are also sliding on hard, so how different can the movement really be?"

True, Nadal is still a different player on clay; his exceptional record (86-2, 11 singles titles), which is unmatched at any major by any player, proves it. But apart from that detail, today's majors don't reward some styles while punishing others. They favor the most talented all-court players and reduce risk for them. Hence, the rich get richer.

The speed at which these three titans eclipsed Sampras' record, after Emerson's had stood for so long, means a basic haul of major titles is just the entry fee into the GOAT debate. Other aspects of the record then become much more important. Those include head-to-head records, success in other first-rate events (like Masters 1000s) and overall winning percentage.

Let's not forget that because he spanned the amateur and Open eras, Rod Laver was denied the opportunity to play majors for six years starting at age 24, the year after he completed a calendar-year Grand Slam. Laver returned in the Open era and then accomplished another sweep of the majors in 1969. He remains the only Open era player with two calendar Grand Slams.

All this suggests there's no real GOAT -- maybe there's a herd of them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fiero425

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
42,675
Reactions
13,865
Points
113
These are things that we know, and are well-laid out, but it won't make the Federer fans happy, in particular.
 

El Dude

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
9,757
Reactions
5,131
Points
113
I have said as much at various times over the years. A "herd of GOATs" (or the technical term is actually a tribe, if we're talking about the animal) may seem like a bit of a cop-out, but makes sense if you consider that a GOAT candidate is a player who dominates his era, and it is difficult if not impossible to compare different eras.

A couple years ago I dabbled with an article called "Tribe of GOATs" in which I created a list of 11 players who all had some degree of "GOATdom." The list in chronological order was, with a brief note on each:

Tony Wilding: Possibly the first truly dominant player; died while still in his prime.
Bill Tilden: Combined the longevity of Rosewall with the dominance of Laver, just very long ago.
Pancho Gonzales: Best player of the 50s, but only won 2 Slams because he went pro at 20 years old; beat a 19-year old Jimmy Connors when he was 43.
Ken Rosewall: Here because of longevity, although he was probably the best player in the sport for a few years sandwiched between Gonzales and Laver.
Rod Laver: Best player of the 60s; arguably more dominant in his time than any other player.
Bjorn Borg: Doesn't have the longevity but has the mystique.
John McEnroe: Like Borg, doesn't belong on the short list (plus you could argue that Lendl was equal or greater), but has the mystique.
Pete Sampras: Now clearly surpassed by the Big Three.
Roger Federer: Has the best resume of the Open Era.
Rafael Nadal: Looked like he could at least come close to Roger's resume, but maybe not with the resurgence of Novak.
Novak Djokovic: Best chance to surpass Roger, but time is limited.

Of those eleven players, only Tilden, Laver, Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic are true GOAT candidates (if we insist upon a singular GOAT). Tilden will never be considered the GOAT because of how long ago he played, so it might end up being Laver vs. whomever of the Big Three ends up with the best resume.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fiero425

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
42,675
Reactions
13,865
Points
113
I have said as much at various times over the years. A "herd of GOATs" (or the technical term is actually a tribe, if we're talking about the animal) may seem like a bit of a cop-out, but makes sense if you consider that a GOAT candidate is a player who dominates his era, and it is difficult if not impossible to compare different eras.

A couple years ago I dabbled with an article called "Tribe of GOATs" in which I created a list of 11 players who all had some degree of "GOATdom." The list in chronological order was, with a brief note on each:

Tony Wilding: Possibly the first truly dominant player; died while still in his prime.
Bill Tilden: Combined the longevity of Rosewall with the dominance of Laver, just very long ago.
Pancho Gonzales: Best player of the 50s, but only won 2 Slams because he went pro at 20 years old; beat a 19-year old Jimmy Connors when he was 43.
Ken Rosewall: Here because of longevity, although he was probably the best player in the sport for a few years sandwiched between Gonzales and Laver.
Rod Laver: Best player of the 60s; arguably more dominant in his time than any other player.
Bjorn Borg: Doesn't have the longevity but has the mystique.
John McEnroe: Like Borg, doesn't belong on the short list (plus you could argue that Lendl was equal or greater), but has the mystique.
Pete Sampras: Now clearly surpassed by the Big Three.
Roger Federer: Has the best resume of the Open Era.
Rafael Nadal: Looked like he could at least come close to Roger's resume, but maybe not with the resurgence of Novak.
Novak Djokovic: Best chance to surpass Roger, but time is limited.

Of those eleven players, only Tilden, Laver, Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic are true GOAT candidates (if we insist upon a singular GOAT). Tilden will never be considered the GOAT because of how long ago he played, so it might end up being Laver vs. whomever of the Big Three ends up with the best resume.
Oh, what a cop out! You went for the "herd/tribe of GOATs," laid out a lot of options, and then capitulated at the end, and finished with the usual Big 3 + Laver. What about all the other fine points in the Bodo article? Your own fine points? Isn't there actually some "herd of goats," by your own admission? You're actually just going for the modern definition, from what I see. Why even work so hard, just to end up at the usual place?
 

GameSetAndMath

The GOAT
Joined
Jul 9, 2013
Messages
21,141
Reactions
3,398
Points
113
There may be a herd of goats; But, one always stands out and it is not difficult to spot.

goats-pheasantviewgoatsoap.jpg
 

El Dude

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
9,757
Reactions
5,131
Points
113
Oh, what a cop out! You went for the "herd/tribe of GOATs," laid out a lot of options, and then capitulated at the end, and finished with the usual Big 3 + Laver. What about all the other fine points in the Bodo article? Your own fine points? Isn't there actually some "herd of goats," by your own admission? You're actually just going for the modern definition, from what I see. Why even work so hard, just to end up at the usual place?

Moxie, the reason you think I'm copping out is because you (mistakenly) believe that I'm settling on "Singular Goat Theory." I'm not (notice how in that last paragraph I said "If you insist upon a singular GOAT"). In actuality, I see it as a matter of how you choose to look at it. There is no objective, scientific way to determine the GOAT, or even to approach the question itself. It depends upon what perspective you want to take.

As I see it, there are two dominant approaches/perspectives, with perhaps several other variations:

1. Singular GOAT Theory (SGT): To quote Highlander, there can only be one. This is probably the most popular way of looking at it, and leads to endless debates, mainly because there is no agreed upon way of determining the GOAT. The most common way is through Slam count, but this is overly simplistic. There are more complicated formulas, but because they take the subjective element out end up not feeling quite right. Anyhow, this is a fun and common way to approach the issue; the problem is finding agreed upon criteria.

2. Herd/Tribe of GOATs (Plural GOAT Theory?): This is what Bodo is getting at, and where I started with above. The idea is that because SGT is impossible to settle on, and because of the problem of comparison across eras, the GOAT is better looked as a plurality than a singularity.

There are probably others, but they tend to be variations of those two.

Anyhow, I don't think one is right and the other wrong. I think they are simply different ways of addressing the question. I think in either case, we need to determine what "greatness" means, and what the most basic criteria is required to even be in the conversation. For instance, I think we can agree that Bjorn Borg deserves to be mentioned, but probably not Boris Becker. What is the difference between the two? I think it is this:

"A GOAT candidate must have been the most dominant player on tour for an extended period of time." What all of that means, depends. But Borg, we know, was the best player in the sport for at least a couple years, and one of the two or three best for all of his peak. All of the GOATs share that, while the mere "all-time greats" like Becker are rarely the most dominant player for more than a year or two.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fiero425 and Moxie

El Dude

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
9,757
Reactions
5,131
Points
113
Here's a little nerdery I just wasted over an hour on. I was thinking about this notion that greatness is most essentially about extended dominance. I have often thought that rankings are rather underrated in terms of assessing greatness - that they combine everything a player does into one nice number, relative to the field. They aren't perfect, but they work pretty well.

So what I did was come up with a number that was "Equivalent Weeks at #1." It gives 1 "share" for every week at #1; 0.5 for every week at #2; 0.33 for every week at #3; 0.2 for weeks at #4-5; and 0.1 for weeks at #6-10. I think that outside the top 10 doesn't impact a player's greatness.

I then added up the total for the best players of the Open Era, then divided that number but matches played to give a kind of "greatness percentage" - a number that was a combination of equivalent weeks at #1, but divided by overall matches played - thus emphasizing dominance, but with some degree of longevity factored in. Here is how the top players of the Open Era ranked:

1. Laver .425
2. Sampras .382
3. Djokovic .356
4. Nadal .352
5. Federer .346
6. Lendl .295
7. Borg .284
8. Connors .275
9. McEnroe .261
10. Rosewall .253
11. Newcombe .221
12. Agassi .207
13. Murray .190
14. Edberg .189
15. Becker .182
16. Wilander .147
17. Hewitt .142
18. Kuerten .142
19. Courier .137
20. Roddick .121

Laver, Rosewall, and Newcombe were for their Open Era numbers only, which makes Laver and Rosewall all the more impressive because they both actually had most of their best years before the Open Era.

By this measure, Laver is the GOAT - and by a good margin. What is surprising is just how high Sampras is ranked. He was just simply that dominant, and with less matches than the Big Three.

Notice how clumped together the Big Three are. I bet that before all is said and done, they'll be even closer as Roger's number is more dilluted by decline than the other two. Nadal and Djokovic will both lower somewhat.

And then there's a big drop. So this confirms that there is a clear Big Five of the Open Era, with a second tier of Lendl, Borg, Connors, McEnroe, and Rosewall.

Again, not saying this is some kind of objective truth - just another angle on this.
 

MikeOne

Masters Champion
Joined
Sep 29, 2015
Messages
654
Reactions
480
Points
63
Bodo just coming up with something to write about... Some fair points but to me, Federer, Nadal or Djokovic would absolutely dominate Laver so i cannot consider Laver GOAT. Some think GAOT is how you fared vs your competition but to me, it's also how you measure up against the current players. Laver was 5'8, a good athlete but sport has evolved. He would be no match for today's greats and so simply cannot consider him GOAT.
 

Ricardo

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
2,673
Reactions
646
Points
113
You can’t convince anyone with any intelligence to believe that Murray is ranked ahead of Edberg and Becker, just don’t bother with your stupid list.....or Sampras above the big 3. Talk about insane stats, one is either nuts or just plain stupid.
 

Ricardo

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
2,673
Reactions
646
Points
113
Bodo just coming up with something to write about... Some fair points but to me, Federer, Nadal or Djokovic would absolutely dominate Laver so i cannot consider Laver GOAT. Some think GAOT is how you fared vs your competition but to me, it's also how you measure up against the current players. Laver was 5'8, a good athlete but sport has evolved. He would be no match for today's greats and so simply cannot consider him GOAT.
Since when is height a prerequisite as being relevant measure of greatness?
 
  • Like
Reactions: tented

isabelle

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
4,673
Reactions
634
Points
113
goat's cheese's delight for sure...
 

Federberg

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 22, 2013
Messages
15,436
Reactions
5,495
Points
113
You can’t convince anyone with any intelligence to believe that Murray is ranked ahead of Edberg and Becker, just don’t bother with your stupid list.....or Sampras above the big 3. Talk about insane stats, one is either nuts or just plain stupid.
not sure I could have said it better. I didn't want to be the one to say it this time :D
 

atttomole

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
3,315
Reactions
1,101
Points
113
These are things that we know, and are well-laid out, but it won't make the Federer fans happy, in particular.
I am not bothered by this at all. As you said, we know about this already. With surface variety however, Roger would have been the best by far because he is probably the most versatile player to play the game. Roger would have competed well on all surfaces. And we know about that too.
 

El Dude

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
9,757
Reactions
5,131
Points
113
not sure I could have said it better. I didn't want to be the one to say it this time :D

The point of statistical-based lists is that they offer something that isn't based on mere opinion. Your opinion may disagree with the statistics, but its just that: your opinion (or to quote the Big Lebowski, "That's just your opinion, man").

Now what you and that other guy don't realize is that I don't necessarily agree with that list above. But I do think it is interesting to devise systems that are based on actual numbers rather than just stick to my own personal opinions. You can deride it all you want, but all you're doing is saying "my opinion = good, your statistically-based list = bad, because it goes against my subjective opinion."

Again, the point of these lists is NOT to come up with some kind of definitive "this is how things are" list. It is to provide a perspective to entertain. If you want to eschew all statistics and stick to your opinion that's your right, but as Dirty Harry said, "opinions are like assholes; everyone's got one."

And again, I don't agree with that list as "the" GOAT rankings. I just think it is an interesting perspective to entertain. It brings up some talking points that would be interesting if we were willing to have open-minded discussions, rather than just the usual shit-flinging.
 

El Dude

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
9,757
Reactions
5,131
Points
113
You can’t convince anyone with any intelligence to believe that Murray is ranked ahead of Edberg and Becker, just don’t bother with your stupid list.....or Sampras above the big 3. Talk about insane stats, one is either nuts or just plain stupid.

Ricardo, you continue to display no actual capacity with reading comprehension. No one is saying that Murray is ahead of Edberg or Becker overall. He just happens to be a hair ahead of them in this one statistical formula, which is not meant to be definitive - just another perspective to entertain.

If you don't understand that, well, who is "just plain stupid?"

(But I probably should take Mark Twain's advice: "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.")
 

Federberg

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 22, 2013
Messages
15,436
Reactions
5,495
Points
113
lol! Let's not go around again mate. I just don't care enough. But please.... there's barely any relationship between that list of yours and statistics or "actual numbers". For a start your coefficients are entirely arbitrary so it's all about your opinion. For your sake I do wish you would stop trying to impose numerical structure to your arguments/opinions

But thanks for telling us what we don't realise. Arrogant much? :D
 

DarthFed

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,724
Reactions
3,477
Points
113
Bodo just coming up with something to write about... Some fair points but to me, Federer, Nadal or Djokovic would absolutely dominate Laver so i cannot consider Laver GOAT. Some think GAOT is how you fared vs your competition but to me, it's also how you measure up against the current players. Laver was 5'8, a good athlete but sport has evolved. He would be no match for today's greats and so simply cannot consider him GOAT.

I think your definition of great might be a bit distorted. If Laver was born 50 years later it'd be different rackets, different nutrition. Hell, the guy would probably be a few inches taller. Greatness is about achievements, part of which is dominance in the era you play in. If you have a time machine with the current big 3 and take them to 2070 to play the top players chances are Fed, Nadal and Djoker would be easily dispatched. But that doesn't necessarily mean the top guys at that point will all be greater than the current top 3.
 

DarthFed

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,724
Reactions
3,477
Points
113
Here's a little nerdery I just wasted over an hour on. I was thinking about this notion that greatness is most essentially about extended dominance. I have often thought that rankings are rather underrated in terms of assessing greatness - that they combine everything a player does into one nice number, relative to the field. They aren't perfect, but they work pretty well.

So what I did was come up with a number that was "Equivalent Weeks at #1." It gives 1 "share" for every week at #1; 0.5 for every week at #2; 0.33 for every week at #3; 0.2 for weeks at #4-5; and 0.1 for weeks at #6-10. I think that outside the top 10 doesn't impact a player's greatness.

I then added up the total for the best players of the Open Era, then divided that number but matches played to give a kind of "greatness percentage" - a number that was a combination of equivalent weeks at #1, but divided by overall matches played - thus emphasizing dominance, but with some degree of longevity factored in. Here is how the top players of the Open Era ranked:

1. Laver .425
2. Sampras .382
3. Djokovic .356
4. Nadal .352
5. Federer .346
6. Lendl .295
7. Borg .284
8. Connors .275
9. McEnroe .261
10. Rosewall .253
11. Newcombe .221
12. Agassi .207
13. Murray .190
14. Edberg .189
15. Becker .182
16. Wilander .147
17. Hewitt .142
18. Kuerten .142
19. Courier .137
20. Roddick .121

Laver, Rosewall, and Newcombe were for their Open Era numbers only, which makes Laver and Rosewall all the more impressive because they both actually had most of their best years before the Open Era.

By this measure, Laver is the GOAT - and by a good margin. What is surprising is just how high Sampras is ranked. He was just simply that dominant, and with less matches than the Big Three.

Notice how clumped together the Big Three are. I bet that before all is said and done, they'll be even closer as Roger's number is more dilluted by decline than the other two. Nadal and Djokovic will both lower somewhat.

And then there's a big drop. So this confirms that there is a clear Big Five of the Open Era, with a second tier of Lendl, Borg, Connors, McEnroe, and Rosewall.

Again, not saying this is some kind of objective truth - just another angle on this.

If you come up with a completely arbitrary list like the above you shouldn't be so sensitive to a bit of pushback. In a list regarding rankings you should see how silly it is that your list has Roger at #5. He's been ranked #1 the longest and has mostly been in the top 3 since Caesar crossed the Rubicon.
 

El Dude

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
9,757
Reactions
5,131
Points
113
lol! Let's not go around again mate. I just don't care enough. But please.... there's barely any relationship between that list of yours and statistics or "actual numbers". For a start your coefficients are entirely arbitrary so it's all about your opinion. For your sake I do wish you would stop trying to impose numerical structure to your arguments/opinions

But thanks for telling us what we don't realise. Arrogant much? :D

I agree, let's not go around because I don't care all that much either...you couldn't help throwing in your little jab, and now you say "let's not talk about it, but here's why you're wrong." And then you call me arrogant? Haha.

If you come up with a completely arbitrary list like the above you shouldn't be so sensitive to a bit of pushback. In a list regarding rankings you should see how silly it is that your list has Roger at #5. He's been ranked #1 the longest and has mostly been in the top 3 since Caesar crossed the Rubicon.

I don't mind pushback - I just want it to be based upon actually understanding what people were actually pushing back against. Anyhow, you are misunderstanding that list. It is NOT a GOAT list; it is a list based upon a formula that I made up on the spot for shits and giggles that relates rankings to quantity of matches played. In baseball terms, it is more of a percentage stat like batting average than it is a counting stat like hits - and thus it would make sense that Roger is below Rafa and Nadal, as by other measures (e.g. ELO, win%) he is lower...mostly because he's played longer, has declined more. In the same sense that a great hitter will have a higher batting average the closer they are to their peak; once they start declining, their rate stats will also decline.