Roger Federer is the standard right now

El Dude

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Before you Rafalites and Novakians get your panties in a wad, I am NOT saying Roger is the best player in the game right now - clearly he's not. But a thought struck me this evening, after Roger defeated a reeling Andy Murray. While it is generally agreed that the two best players in the sport right now are Nadal and Djokovic, and by a significant margin over the rest of the field, the idea came to me that it is actually Roger Federer, at least right now, that is setting the standard, the bar if you will, as to what defines a champion. Let me explain.

Consider who Roger has lost to this year:

Tsonga at Toronto
Djokovic at Wimbledon
Gulbis at Roland Garros
Chardy at Rome
Wawrinka at Monte Carlo
Nishikori at Miami
Djokovic at Indian Wells
Nadal at the Australian Open
Hewitt at Brisbane

Almost without exception, each of those players was playing at their peak level when they defeated Roger. Tsonga was having the tournament of his life and had mowed down Murray and Djokovic as well, not to mention Dimitrov; Djokovic had to pull out all the stops to beat Roger at Wimbledon (and their 2014 record is still tied at 2-2); Gulbis was finally fulfilling his potential and having the best Slam of his career at Roland Garros, also beating Berdych before losing to Djokovic in the SF; Chardy might be the sole outlier in the list - I have no idea what happened there; Wawrinka was still playing at a very high level, in the best year of his career; Nishikori was also playing at a high level; Djokovic is Djokovic; Nadal - nuff said; and Hewitt was on his home turf, desperately wanting to beat the best player of his generation for the first time in over a decade (Hewitt was 8-2 in their first ten matches, 1-16 since).

I know I just wrote a post about how I don't think Roger has the full game any more to win a big tournament, that he will always either have to face a Nadal-Djokovic in the final, neither of whom he can seemingly beat anymore in a best of five, or a near-elite player like Tsonga playing his heart out - and in either case Roger doesn't quite seem to be able to muster the level required to win. But in a way I'm writing this as a counter, because I think you can look at the same data and see how Roger was always there, right in the mix to the end, but simply lost to a player who was playing as good as he possibly could.

As Niels Bohr once said, while the opposite of a fact is a falsehood, the opposite of one profound truth may be another profound truth. And so it is that my last commentary on Roger, and this one, both hold some truth - even though both are opposed in some way. I do think Roger is no longer able to get to that high level that was his hallmark during his extended peak of 2003-09, which we saw flash for awhile in 2012, but he does seem to be playing consistently at a level that is setting a standard in recent tournaments, a bar against which the eventual winner has to surpass. When no one is able to do so, Roger will win - because he's there, because he's setting that standard.

So if we look at the rest of Cincinnati, we have a hungry Milos Raonic wanting to win his first match against Federer (0-5), especially after a disappointing defeat at Wimbledon. For Raonic to do so, he's going to have to play the match of his life. Why? Because Roger will exploit anything less - he'll find a way to win.

And then after that we've got either Benneteau or Ferrer. Benneteau is known for having defeated Roger twice, and almost beating him at Wimbledon in 2012. Given that, he'll still have to play the match of his life to win. Ferrer simply can't beat Roger at all (0-15) and will have to play beyond his usual capacity to beat him.

We can look at those excellent players who have fallen to Roger recently - perhaps most notably Andy Murray, who has lost their last two match-ups after winning three of the previous four. We all know about Andy's recent struggles, and this is a case in point: A struggling Andy Murray cannot beat Roger Federer c. 2014. Or look at Lopez, Ferrer, and Cilic in Toronto - all players who have played well in 2014, yet none of whom could muster that extra something to defeat Roger.

At Wimbledon, Roger defeated Stan Wawrinka before beating Raonic. Wawrinka has slowed since his torrid first half, and when he isn't playing at his very best can't beat Roger.

I could go on. Again, the point is that Roger is setting a kind of standard that defines what a champion is right now. If you play better than Roger, you win, if you play worse, you lose. I know, it sounds like a truism - but I don't think any player is defining that standard in the same way Roger is right now. When Rafa and Novak are on their games they will defeat anyone (except, perhaps, each other). Yet Roger is beatable by any very good player if that player is playing his absolute best. But that's the thing - anything less than one's best, or very close to one's best, and it won't happen.

OK, I've gone on too long!
 

DarthFed

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With all due respect I'm not bothering to read this mini bible. Roger hasn't won anything of note in 2 years. In that time you have guys like Wawrinka, Ferrer, and Tsonga winning MS/GS events.

Let's hope that changes come Sunday but even then the only way we say Roger had a good 2014 is if he is lifting the USO championship in 3 weeks.
 
N

NADAL2005RG

Wimbledon is Federer's best chance at adding to the slam count......so it will be important for him to win a masters event before next year's Wimbledon, to prepare him mentally to cash-in should he get the chance of another Wimbledon Final. Federer is in desperate need of the Cincy title. Not the end of the world though if he doesn't win it. The way Djokovic is playing (or not playing), Federer may also get a shot at Shanghai, Paris or World Tour Finals.
 

El Dude

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DarthFed said:
With all due respect I'm not bothering to read this mini bible.

Which is why you completely missed the point of my post and your response has little to do with what I wrote.

I don't mind being disagreed with, but at least disagree with what I actually said.
 

Billie

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El Dude said:
DarthFed said:
With all due respect I'm not bothering to read this mini bible.

Which is why you completely missed the point of my post and your response has little to do with what I wrote.

I don't mind being disagreed with, but at least disagree with what I actually said.

I am sorry, I fail to see what you intended with your original post. Federer is setting a standard on being a champion without actually winning tournaments? Players have to play well to beat him? Well not out of their mind, some didn't play that well and still beat him. I don't think you guys understand that it is so difficult to keep winning like before so any player who wins one of the big trophies has to be close to top of his game in order to win a Masters1000 or a major.
 

DarthFed

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^ I read part of it but stopped early on. Goes back to what I said on earlier threads, not sure why everyone figured Roger would be awful at age 33? I doubt he will be awful at age 35-36 if he is still around.

The only great players he lost to this year are Djokovic and Nadal. You can come up with a couple reasons as to why it is decent for him to lose to guys like Tsonga, Gulbis, Wawrinka, etc. but I will disagree in advance... It is near sighted to just look at Roger's age and declare he "should" be doing worse than he is. When you saw the man play at 25 did you think he wouldn't be top 10 at 30+?
 
N

NADAL2005RG

I'd be shocked if Federer is able to win 3 five-setters at a slam event at age 35 (Agassi at the US Open), but I think he'll still be able to beat Djokovic/Murray when when he's 35.
 

coban

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I think the crux of the article is that: Federer is ALWAYS there, and you can't fault him for that and put an asterix* on these wins.
 

I.Haychew

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OK, I've gone on too long!
[/quote]

Agreed. Iph this isn't phanboyism, then I don't know what is. Your standard is the matches that he's lost? What has he actually won? I admit that I have a short attention span, but I just don't get it.
 

El Dude

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I. Haychew said:
OK, I've gone on too long!

Agreed. Iph this isn't phanboyism, then I don't know what is. Your standard is the matches that he's lost? What has he actually won? I admit that I have a short attention span, but I just don't get it.
[/quote]

No, you don't - so let's just leave it at that!

I should have known not to post something with any degree of subtlety or requires an attention span to read and digest. I won't bother next time around!
 

Billie

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El Dude, don't get discouraged. Some of us may not get it and maybe we should stay out of it but some might. I apologize for my comments if those are a bit insensitive towards your topic.:cool:
 

mrzz

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I'll help you, El Dude.

The OP argues that, if someone wants to win a tournament, or go deep and be one of the names to mention, he will need to reach a certain level that RF is bringing to ALL tournaments. So, in this sense, he is seting the standard.

If RF wins a few tournaments himself, this notion of "standard seting" converges to the usual one (that is, you have to beat him to win).

I see the point, but is far too subtle indeed.
 

calitennis127

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El Dude said:
Before you Rafalites and Novakians get your panties in a wad, I am NOT saying Roger is the best player in the game right now - clearly he's not. But a thought struck me this evening, after Roger defeated a reeling Andy Murray. While it is generally agreed that the two best players in the sport right now are Nadal and Djokovic, and by a significant margin over the rest of the field, the idea came to me that it is actually Roger Federer, at least right now, that is setting the standard, the bar if you will, as to what defines a champion. Let me explain.

Consider who Roger has lost to this year:

Tsonga at Toronto
Djokovic at Wimbledon
Gulbis at Roland Garros
Chardy at Rome
Wawrinka at Monte Carlo
Nishikori at Miami
Djokovic at Indian Wells
Nadal at the Australian Open
Hewitt at Brisbane

Almost without exception, each of those players was playing at their peak level when they defeated Roger. Tsonga was having the tournament of his life and had mowed down Murray and Djokovic as well, not to mention Dimitrov; Djokovic had to pull out all the stops to beat Roger at Wimbledon (and their 2014 record is still tied at 2-2); Gulbis was finally fulfilling his potential and having the best Slam of his career at Roland Garros, also beating Berdych before losing to Djokovic in the SF; Chardy might be the sole outlier in the list - I have no idea what happened there; Wawrinka was still playing at a very high level, in the best year of his career; Nishikori was also playing at a high level; Djokovic is Djokovic; Nadal - nuff said; and Hewitt was on his home turf, desperately wanting to beat the best player of his generation for the first time in over a decade (Hewitt was 8-2 in their first ten matches, 1-16 since).

I know I just wrote a post about how I don't think Roger has the full game any more to win a big tournament, that he will always either have to face a Nadal-Djokovic in the final, neither of whom he can seemingly beat anymore in a best of five, or a near-elite player like Tsonga playing his heart out - and in either case Roger doesn't quite seem to be able to muster the level required to win. But in a way I'm writing this as a counter, because I think you can look at the same data and see how Roger was always there, right in the mix to the end, but simply lost to a player who was playing as good as he possibly could.

As Niels Bohr once said, while the opposite of a fact is a falsehood, the opposite of one profound truth may be another profound truth. And so it is that my last commentary on Roger, and this one, both hold some truth - even though both are opposed in some way. I do think Roger is no longer able to get to that high level that was his hallmark during his extended peak of 2003-09, which we saw flash for awhile in 2012, but he does seem to be playing consistently at a level that is setting a standard in recent tournaments, a bar against which the eventual winner has to surpass. When no one is able to do so, Roger will win - because he's there, because he's setting that standard.

So if we look at the rest of Cincinnati, we have a hungry Milos Raonic wanting to win his first match against Federer (0-5), especially after a disappointing defeat at Wimbledon. For Raonic to do so, he's going to have to play the match of his life. Why? Because Roger will exploit anything less - he'll find a way to win.

And then after that we've got either Benneteau or Ferrer. Benneteau is known for having defeated Roger twice, and almost beating him at Wimbledon in 2012. Given that, he'll still have to play the match of his life to win. Ferrer simply can't beat Roger at all (0-15) and will have to play beyond his usual capacity to beat him.

We can look at those excellent players who have fallen to Roger recently - perhaps most notably Andy Murray, who has lost their last two match-ups after winning three of the previous four. We all know about Andy's recent struggles, and this is a case in point: A struggling Andy Murray cannot beat Roger Federer c. 2014. Or look at Lopez, Ferrer, and Cilic in Toronto - all players who have played well in 2014, yet none of whom could muster that extra something to defeat Roger.

At Wimbledon, Roger defeated Stan Wawrinka before beating Raonic. Wawrinka has slowed since his torrid first half, and when he isn't playing at his very best can't beat Roger.

I could go on. Again, the point is that Roger is setting a kind of standard that defines what a champion is right now. If you play better than Roger, you win, if you play worse, you lose. I know, it sounds like a truism - but I don't think any player is defining that standard in the same way Roger is right now. When Rafa and Novak are on their games they will defeat anyone (except, perhaps, each other). Yet Roger is beatable by any very good player if that player is playing his absolute best. But that's the thing - anything less than one's best, or very close to one's best, and it won't happen.

OK, I've gone on too long!




Good post El Dude. Now let me ask you: so you think age really matters in the Raonic-Federer series? Who is the better mover?

Regarding Darth, all he sees is titles, which is a good way to be as a player or a coach in the heat of battle but not as an analyst. If you don't win the title, he thinks you suck and you're terrible.

The fact is, though, Federer has been right in the mix throughout the year. In my mind, the most disappointing loss he had was the one in Monte Carlo to Wawrinka.
 
N

NADAL2005RG

2014 Federer reminds me of 2008-2011 Murray (except Murray beat Nadal twice at slams during that period, while Federer has not beaten Nadal/Djokovic at a slam since 2012). Admirable consistency, albeit only for 8 months.
 

tented

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El Dude said:
DarthFed said:
With all due respect I'm not bothering to read this mini bible.

Which is why you completely missed the point of my post and your response has little to do with what I wrote.

I don't mind being disagreed with, but at least disagree with what I actually said.

It's a subtle, but interesting post, El Dude. (And worth reading in full, Darth.)

Perhaps the better way to express it is through stats: Federer has won more matches this year than anyone else, including Djokovic and Nadal, the top-two ranked players. He's been in four finals in a row, winning two, losing two (including two Masters and a GS). He's currently accruing more points than the others. He's 10-4 vs. Top 10 players (I think that's right). Etc.
 

El Dude

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mrzz said:
I'll help you, El Dude.

The OP argues that, if someone wants to win a tournament, or go deep and be one of the names to mention, he will need to reach a certain level that RF is bringing to ALL tournaments. So, in this sense, he is seting the standard.

If RF wins a few tournaments himself, this notion of "standard seting" converges to the usual one (that is, you have to beat him to win).

I see the point, but is far too subtle indeed.

You got it, although it is not as much that the winner of a given tournament needs to reach the level Federer brings, but that he is playing at the level that the winner needs to surpass. He is setting the bar - if you can play above that level (which Rafa and Novak can on most occasions) then you can win a big tournament.

calitennis127 said:
Good post El Dude. Now let me ask you: so you think age really matters in the Raonic-Federer series? Who is the better mover?

Regarding Darth, all he sees is titles, which is a good way to be as a player or a coach in the heat of battle but not as an analyst. If you don't win the title, he thinks you suck and you're terrible.

The fact is, though, Federer has been right in the mix throughout the year. In my mind, the most disappointing loss he had was the one in Monte Carlo to Wawrinka.

Hey Cali, you don't need the whole damn thing, by the way ;)

Anyhow, to answer your question, age isn't the only factor when looking at Raonic and Federer. It is like saying, is age a factor in who could win a game of one-on-one basketball, a 51-year old Michael Jordan or a 32-year old Seth Rogen? It isn't a fair comparison.

Now clearly comparing Federer and Raonic is closer than Jordan and Rogen. But my point is, you also have to compare Roger's movement now, at age 33, to his movement at his ultimate peak, in 2004-07, when he was 22-26 years old. Do you think he's getting around the ball as well now as he did then?

As for disappointing losses, Wimbledon has to be number one. I've felt for awhile that 18 Slam titles just sounds right for Roger, and I still hold out hope that he can do it. But yeah, Monte Carlo was one that got away.

tented said:
It's a subtle, but interesting post, El Dude. (And worth reading in full, Darth.)

Perhaps the better way to express it is through stats: Federer has won more matches this year than anyone else, including Djokovic and Nadal, the top-two ranked players. He's been in four finals in a row, winning two, losing two (including two Masters and a GS). He's currently accruing more points than the others. He's 10-4 vs. Top 10 players (I think that's right). Etc.

Yep. Also, mrzz put it well. Roger has actually been the most consistent player on tour. Not the best, but he's there (almost) every time.
 

The Big Bad Wolf

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Well, you might as well say that I simply don't get it, but this could actually be applied to any other player that has been this consistent in a season, and well, we are talking about Roger (enough said :D ), so, if anyone can do it, it is him.
Oh and sorry for leaving this reply days after the thread was made, but I just forgot eveytime.