Indian Wells, BNP Paribas Open, Masters 1000

[El Dude]

I don't now how many of you guys actually play tennis -- at any level -- but anyone who plays knows exactly what choking (in tennis) is, and it does not includes "anger". So, at least in tennis world, choking is one thing and getting pissed of is quite another. It could be other way in other sports/contexts, but in tennis those are completely different things.

Interesting. This is purely hypothetical, but would you say that some (but not necessarily all) players use anger as a way to prevent choking? In other words, let's say that choking is caused by anxiety and negative thoughts, even fear as Federberg says, which lead to impeded performance...do you think a player might generate anger to "burn away" the anxiety and negative thoughts?

 

[Federberg]

Huh? What does what I'm saying have to do with whether I watched the match or not?

What I'm saying has nothing do with the specific match, nor am I talking about "contextless advocacy of what the scores meant," nor am I saying that Roger did actually choke in this specific match (although it sounds like there was some degree of chokeage). I'm talking in general, re: the question of choking vs. being out-played, and whether a great player like Roger can choke, which I think he can.

I don't think anyone has said great players can't choke, so I don't know where you're going with that. If you've played sport to any level it should be quite clear what the difference between choking and being outplayed is. I don't know what to say to you. The very fact that you think loss of composure due to anger has anything to do with choking at all makes me wonder if there's any point to debating this issue with you. Happy for you to have your own view mate, mine's different

 

[El Dude]

I don't think anyone has said great players can't choke, so I don't know where you're going with that. If you've played sport to any level it should be quite clear what the difference between choking and being outplayed is. I don't know what to say to you. The very fact that you think loss of composure due to anger has anything to do with choking at all makes me wonder if there's any point to debating this issue with you. Happy for you to have your own view mate, mine's different

Did you read the post to mrzz above this one? Re: anger and choking. It doesn’t seem like you did.

You misunderstand what I am saying regarding choking and being outplayed. I am NOT saying they are the same thing; what I AM saying is that they can occur within the same match, even feed each other. It isn’t necessarily one or the other.

 

[Federberg]

Did you read the post to mrzz above this one? Re: anger and choking. It doesn’t seem like you did.

You misunderstand what I am saying regarding choking and being outplayed. I am NOT saying they are the same thing; what I AM saying is that they can occur within the same match, even feed each other. It isn’t necessarily one or the other.

I both read and responded to mrzz's post thank you. With the greatest of respect to him, and even though I agreed wholeheartedly with him, please don't quote him as an authority to me. I have my own understanding and I'm quite willing to stand on my own two feet.

I didn't say that you implied they were the same thing. I implied that you didn't seem to understand the difference. As I said it's probably best for you to hold to your view, and I'll stick with mine. Yes you can be outplayed and choke in the same match. But I completely disagree that they feed on each other. That's not my experience of choking. And this is why I question whether you've experienced a competitive situation where you are trying to access the best within yourself. It has nothing to do with the relative ability of the person you're facing. It's an internal thing, personal to any competitor. When you choke you are unable to activate that inner state that allows you to access even your default level, not to talk of your best level. It is one of the loneliest feelings on earth and if any emotion has any relationship with that state it's certainly not anger. Shame or sadness are closer. At least that's my experience. The clearest and most obvious case of choking I've seen in recent memory was the first set Cilic played in the Wimbledon final.

Anyway your understanding seems to be evolving through this thread...

 

[mrzz]

please don't quote him as an authority to me

You are not respecting my authority!!!!!!!!!!

 

[El Dude]

@Federberg, I'm not talking about that older post but the more recent one about anger in which I ceded @mrzz's view that anger doesn't cause choking, and I asked him the question as to whether he thinks players sometimes get angry to prevent choking. I think you are both right that choking isn't caused by anger, and that I was mistaken - at least as a primary cause.

As for the rest, you misunderstand me if you think I confuse choking and being outplayed. What I am saying is that not only can they co-occur (which you agreed with), but they can feed each other. In fact, it may be part of Roger's problem vs. Rafa years ago: what he did to beat most players didn't work with Rafa, which led to frustration and doubt, anxiety and even fear, which made him more "choke prone."

I do like your description of choking - very well written, and it goes with my own experience. I don't play sports, but like every human being, I have "choked" many times! I do agree that it is primarily an inner experience. Actually, this is where expectations of oneself come into play.

 

[mrzz]

Interesting. This is purely hypothetical, but would you say that some (but not necessarily all) players use anger as a way to prevent choking? In other words, let's say that choking is caused by anxiety and negative thoughts, even fear as Federberg says, which lead to impeded performance...do you think a player might generate anger to "burn away" the anxiety and negative thoughts?

Definitely. One possible way out of this is indeed through anger. It is true in my case, and I bet this is why we see some many professional players having outbursts regularly and not running to sports psychologists in the following morning. Probably they figure is better break some racquets and behave like an asshole then to be a complete hostage of your chokes. I am not saying that this is the perfect antidote, but maybe the only option for some (myself included).

Choking in tennis is one the weirdest feelings I ever experienced. @Federberg is completely right that it is an inner thing -- maybe some opponents will trigger it more than others -- but it is completely within you. And, that is the terrible part, it seems to be completely out of your control (that's why anger seems like the only solution). Hell, I have already punched me in the head trying to break free from it. The best solution, of course, would be to find a way to never feel it to begin with.

Of course there are levels. Sometimes it takes basically all the strength and confidence of your shot -- you lose focus and there you make the lamest shot of all time, that travels mere 2 meters and hits the ground hopelessly. Sometimes it just makes you that tiny bit tight, and you miss one shot by, oh!, so little. And then you start to second guess yourself, change the motions that should be automatic, and the snowball just grows and grows. Soon you're down and dusted. It is a weird combination of fear of missing, anxiety, some sort of desperation and a strange feeling of physical impotence.

One of the reasons I really love tennis is that I am completely sure that this level of choking only happens in tennis. The sport demands you a combination of physical strength, speed, technique, focus and calm, all while you are out there alone, and (this is the important part) you stop at every point, you have time to think and see "oh, I am so close", "Two more points and I am on the semis", etc and etc. But you need to win those two more points, you cannot just wait the clock to tick the time away.

That's why I have a giant admiration for Nadal. The way this guy can find a way to play his absolute best when his backs are against the wall -- and the son of a gun knows it perfectly -- is absurd beyond my comprehension. I used to hate the guy for this, but I quickly understood that I should applaud him for that -- something I did the only time I saw him playing live (even if I rooted against him as always). Of course he chokes too, as everyone does, but most of the time when others would be feeling his arms turn in to jelly, he is ripping winners out of nowhere.

 

[Moxie]

I don't think anyone has said great players can't choke, so I don't know where you're going with that. If you've played sport to any level it should be quite clear what the difference between choking and being outplayed is. I don't know what to say to you. The very fact that you think loss of composure due to anger has anything to do with choking at all makes me wonder if there's any point to debating this issue with you. Happy for you to have your own view mate, mine's different

In fairness, I did say that I don't think Federer can really choke anymore. And I don't mean by that all "elite players." With Rafa rather off his back, I don't think anyone makes him cringe mentally. I really like @mrzz's definitions of "choking" in tennis, and the distinction with other sports. And the distinction between taking things out in anger, as opposed to "choking." We're arguing definitions here, and I think Mrzz has the best one.

 

[Federberg]

I’m not sure I’m saying anything particularly different from him but whatever. I can tell you this for free, he is definitely incorrect about the uniqueness of tennis. Both golf and table tennis afford far greater opportunities to choke. I know, I play(ed) all 3 to a decent level. There is nothing worse than golf for it. You can walk on to the first tee and you already know you’re hell's bitch, simply nothing like it.

In the past coaches explained to me that the best way to combat choking is practice. Choking occurs when the parts of your game that have a conscious element to them break down, i.e, your head gets in the way. What practice does is to build muscle memory and make as much of your game - your technique - automatic and unaffected by conscious thought. Sports like tennis, golf and table tennis are all a weird mix of power, control and precision. When you're playing at your default levels in any of these activities your "feel" is automatic. When you choke it's normally because one of these elements moves from muscle memory to the conscious part of your brain. For me in tennis it's my distance control, all of a sudden I have to take conscious steps to make sure I keep the ball within the lines and everything goes to hell from there.

What makes Rafa amazing isn't that he doesn't choke, it's the measures he's used to combat his susceptibility to it. He practices at a far higher level than he's ever likely to play in real match conditions. Hitting the ball far far harder in practice than in match play. That way when he's on court he's building in such a mental margin as the perceived level of difficulty of his shot making is much lower than in practice. He still occasionally manifests tightness by hitting short balls though. This is the thing, we're all human, even the greats can lose the thread sometimes. That's ok though, that's what makes sports so compelling to watch

 

[mrzz]

Yes, @Federberg, I new from the start we were almost on the same page here. Only possible difference is that I am not 100% positive there was zero choke on that TB (and, again, I am done discussing that. As I said, good arguments both sides, and all we can do is to speculate).

About golf and table tennis, I could not know, even if table tennis at least I have played a bit. But there are two things in tennis that are surely different -- and thus my position (kind of speculative, yes): one is that tennis requires much more physical effort than both. Maybe the level of control -- which is great on all -- is a bit smaller on tennis, but the physical effort (and I only have to look at the energy of the ball to know that with 100% certainty) is in another order of magnitude, so if you lose energy, you are fried. But the big difference for me is the combination of timing and the pool of choices you have at each ball. I would say that in table tennis things go so fast that sometimes you don't have time to choke, while in tennis, in those 20 seconds between serve, you can picture all your life after that match win. In golf (never touched a club in my life), I guess you have far less options. In tennis you can drive it, slice it, down the line, cross court, short, deep, follow it to the net... there is a multitude of options. You know that one of the first things you do when you choke is to make stupid decisions.

Fair points about Nadal, but still that energy on important points amazes me -- as in fact he RAISES his level when most would crumble. The short balls have one explanation (not an "explanation", but a reason why it becomes so apparent), which is his top spin. I am pretty sure if you look at someone like Sock (who also spins the ball like hell), you will see the same short balls (and quite more often, in fact) in similar situations. Before someone mentions Federer (who also can add a lot of spin to his shots), one must remember that he, amazingly, varies his top spin rate a lot. He might fire a shot at almost 4000 RPM and follow it by an almost flat one on the very next shot.

But, and this is the main point, YOU ARE NOT RESPECTING MY AUTHORITAH!

 

[Federberg]

Yes, @Federberg, I new from the start we were almost on the same page here. Only possible difference is that I am not 100% positive there was zero choke on that TB (and, again, I am done discussing that. As I said, good arguments both sides, and all we can do is to speculate).

About golf and table tennis, I could not know, even if table tennis at least I have played a bit. But there are two things in tennis that are surely different -- and thus my position (kind of speculative, yes): one is that tennis requires much more physical effort than both. Maybe the level of control -- which is great on all -- is a bit smaller on tennis, but the physical effort (and I only have to look at the energy of the ball to know that with 100% certainty) is in another order of magnitude, so if you lose energy, you are fried. But the big difference for me is the combination of timing and the pool of choices you have at each ball. I would say that in table tennis things go so fast that sometimes you don't have time to choke, while in tennis, in those 20 seconds between serve, you can picture all your life after that match win. In golf (never touched a club in my life), I guess you have far less options. In tennis you can drive it, slice it, down the line, cross court, short, deep, follow it to the net... there is a multitude of options. You know that one of the first things you do when you choke is to make stupid decisions.

Fair points about Nadal, but still that energy on important points amazes me -- as in fact he RAISES his level when most would crumble. The short balls have one explanation (not an "explanation", but a reason why it becomes so apparent), which is his top spin. I am pretty sure if you look at someone like Sock (who also spins the ball like hell), you will see the same short balls (and quite more often, in fact) in similar situations. Before someone mentions Federer (who also can add a lot of spin to his shots), one must remember that he, amazingly, varies his top spin rate a lot. He might fire a shot at almost 4000 RPM and follow it by an almost flat one on the very next shot.

But, and this is the main point, YOU ARE NOT RESPECTING MY AUTHORITAH!

haha! Bow before Zod...

You'll be amazed, but when you play table tennis at a high level you expend a lot of energy, more than you think, a big part of it is mental, because precision is so important. I'm not saying it's as much as in tennis, but it's far more than you think. And regarding the amount of time you have to think? When you play at a high level, you're processing information very quickly. But the problem, is that the choking eliminates certain shots from your arsenal. You know... deep inside... you won't be able to make particular shots and it's paralysing. And as for the range of shots you have, trust me my friend, you have far far more options in table tennis than in tennis. The variety of spins and directions you can impart on the ball are amazing, it's not even remotely close. As for golf, you have to have played the sport to understand. There is no sport, and I mean this, absolutely none where the opportunity to choke is more available than in golf. I remember, in 2014, I spent 6 weeks in Salvador during the world cup. And we played golf at a resort some miles outside of the city a few times. On one hole, a par 3, where we had to hit over a lake on to the green. I hit the ball into the water 3 times in a row. Each time, trying a different shape shot, didn't matter. In my head no matter what I did I knew beforehand that I was going to dump it. My friends were laughing at me, but you know what? The next day, same thing happened to one of the other guys. This is what golf does to you. Messes with your mind!

 

[mrzz]

Your friends were laughing and you had a club on your hands? Good anger management!

 

[Federberg]

Your friends were laughing and you had a club on your hands? Good anger management!

It's golf mate. Deep down you all know your time will come. So when they were laughing at me, they were also laughing at themselves