How will Djokovic perform against the young generation in 2023?

Nadalfan2013

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Aug 23, 2018
Messages
2,735
Reactions
1,395
Points
113
Djokovic is:

0-1 vs Alcaraz
1-1 vs FAA
1-1 vs Rune

and he lost the last match against each...

These players can outhit him and outrun him...

I predict that he will have a losing record against all of them in 2023...

Will he able to avoid them at the AO?

Discuss... :popcorn


alcaraz.gif
 
Last edited:

MargaretMcAleer

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
41,556
Reactions
27,599
Points
113
Lets see if these youngsters can defeat Djokovic in a Grand Slam, best of 5, that will be the 'real test', so far it has been in the best of 3 sets., especially at the AO which is Novak's best GS record, he will be attempting to win his 10th AO title in 2023.Novak at age 35, to me is still in good physical shape, even recently at the end of year finals, not in his best physical shape he found a way to win the title.
 

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
16,880
Reactions
7,079
Points
113
Lets see if these youngsters can defeat Djokovic in a Grand Slam, best of 5, that will be the 'real test', so far it has been in the best of 3 sets., especially at the AO which is Novak's best GS record, he will be attempting to win his 10th AO title in 2023.Novak at age 35, to me is still in good physical shape, even recently at the end of year finals, not in his best physical shape he found a way to win the title.
That’s it. It’s one thing beating Novak in the Laver Cup, and another thing taking him down in a slam. I think Carlos has the best chance though.

Same question could be asked of Rafa too. They’re both going to face great youngsters next year, hopefully…
 

El Dude

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
9,709
Reactions
5,045
Points
113
To echo and expand upon what @MargaretMcAleer and @Kieran said, it is one thing to beat one of the top dogs in a best-of-three, quite another in a best-of-five, mainly because the former format is more volatile, and secondarily (but also quite importantly) because one area that the Big Three have excelled at--and younger generations fallen short--is the physical and mental fortitude of the five-setter.

Rafa actually went 22-1 in best-of-five matches in 2022, with one walkover, losing only to Tiafoe. He was 9-2 last year, with his two losses being to Novak and Tsitsipas. Novak was 11-1 this year, losing to Rafa, and 27-1 last year, losing to Medvedev. Meaning, 2021-22: Rafa 31-3, Novak 38-2 in best-of-fives, or 69-5 together, a 93.2 W%...which is a peak year for any of the Big Three. During that same timespan, they're 93-22 in best-of-threes, an 80.9 W%....a bit below career averages.

As far as generational dominance, I have a handy little metric which I call "title shares" which gives 10 points to a Slam, 6 to the TF, 4 to Masters, 3 to Olympics, 2 to ATP 500, and 1 to ATP 250. I then convert the totals into percentiles for a given year, and look at both generations and individual players (meaning, every year has "100 Title Shares" to divide up between generations and players...for context, the best single season TS for any player in the Open Era was Novak in 2015, with 42%...Roger in 2006 was 40%, Laver in '69 and Mac in '84 were 38%).

The thing I like about this metric is that it teases out actual titles, ignoring late-round appearances, so it is good for illustrating actual dominance rather than mere "presence."

From this metric (and others would yield similar results), I've found that the 1984-88 generation rose to dominance in 2008, peaked in 2011-16, and has been steadily declining since. Its best year was 2013 with 83%; from 2016 on it has fallen from 78% to 39, 54, 49, 43, 33, 35. Meaning, a steep decline after 2016, though 2017 was largely due to Roger's great year and Novak's fall, so we can really see the more "natural" curve from 2018-22: 54, 49, 43, 33, 35. But you can see 2018 (54%) still being far behind the peak range, and in 2021, Next Gen (50%) actually was the most dominant.

But I say that with a caveat and to further the point above, as this is ALL titles, not just Slams. Meaning, the dominance of Rafa-Novak (and Roger) has slowly eroded overall, but still held strong at Slams. We've seen one Slam go to a non-Big Three (and younger players) in each of the last three years, but it hasn't been more than one. While I suspect that will change in 2023, and we'll see Rafa-Novak only win 2 Slams between them, the times they are a changin (gods, I hope so).

As I said, though, this is mostly showing up in non-Slams. We can look at the "second tier" tournaments, the Masters, to see this more clearly. The 1984-88 generation won all 9 Masters in 2016--four by Novak, three by Murray, 1 each by Rafa and Cilic--and then 2017 saw not only Roger win three, but Zverev win two, Dimitrov and Sock one each. The Masters were largely reclaimed in 2018, with only two going to Next Genners, and but then it has fallen off since. Here are non-Slam big titles from 2016-22:

Screen Shot 2022-11-28 at 9.13.26 AM.png


Check out those last two years: Only two big titles by Rafa-Novak (and older gens in general) in each of the last two years, with 7 going to younger players in each year.

Anyhow, I'll be sharing more in another thread about this shift in generations, both recently and over time.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
42,553
Reactions
13,758
Points
113
From this metric (and others would yield similar results), I've found that the 1984-88 generation rose to dominance in 2008, peaked in 2011-16, and has been steadily declining since. Its best year was 2013 with 83%; from 2016 on it has fallen from 78% to 39, 54, 49, 43, 33, 35. Meaning, a steep decline after 2016, though 2017 was largely due to Roger's great year and Novak's fall, so we can really see the more "natural" curve from 2018-22: 54, 49, 43, 33, 35. But you can see 2018 (54%) still being far behind the peak range, and in 2021, Next Gen (50%) actually was the most dominant.

But I say that with a caveat and to further the point above, as this is ALL titles, not just Slams. Meaning, the dominance of Rafa-Novak (and Roger) has slowly eroded overall, but still held strong at Slams. We've seen one Slam go to a non-Big Three (and younger players) in each of the last three years, but it hasn't been more than one. While I suspect that will change in 2023, and we'll see Rafa-Novak only win 2 Slams between them, the times they are a changin (gods, I hope so).

As I said, though, this is mostly showing up in non-Slams. We can look at the "second tier" tournaments, the Masters, to see this more clearly. The 1984-88 generation won all 9 Masters in 2016--four by Novak, three by Murray, 1 each by Rafa and Cilic--and then 2017 saw not only Roger win three, but Zverev win two, Dimitrov and Sock one each. The Masters were largely reclaimed in 2018, with only two going to Next Genners, and but then it has fallen off since. Here are non-Slam big titles from 2016-22:
I do appreciate that chart, but I'm going to pull out the bolded point above, because, as you rightfully point out, and I think has been much said, the erosion of dominance by Big 3/2 in tournaments other than Slams is about, in part, them caring about them less, is it not? (With some caring about YEC and Olympics, I think it is fair to say.) Not to completely diss the youngsters, but it does help them that Rafa and Novak are basically at a completely different place in what they are interested in (legacy) compared to everyone else (career-building, and chasing titles they might actually get.) And they are (still?) at a completely different level of making it happen in best of 5. We'll see what happens at the Majors next year, but I do think it still looks like maybe Alcaraz is the only one with the talent, the "chill", and the belief to really challenge at Majors, should he confront either of them in a SF/Final. And, based on rankings, it would be that. If Rafa and Novak still "feeling it," they may yet be hard to beat in the long slog of Majors. Early upset might be the better option.
 

El Dude

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
9,709
Reactions
5,045
Points
113
I do appreciate that chart, but I'm going to pull out the bolded point above, because, as you rightfully point out, and I think has been much said, the erosion of dominance by Big 3/2 in tournaments other than Slams is about, in part, them caring about them less, is it not? (With some caring about YEC and Olympics, I think it is fair to say.) Not to completely diss the youngsters, but it does help them that Rafa and Novak are basically at a completely different place in what they are interested in (legacy) compared to everyone else (career-building, and chasing titles they might actually get.) And they are (still?) at a completely different level of making it happen in best of 5. We'll see what happens at the Majors next year, but I do think it still looks like maybe Alcaraz is the only one with the talent, the "chill", and the belief to really challenge at Majors, should he confront either of them in a SF/Final. And, based on rankings, it would be that. If Rafa and Novak still "feeling it," they may yet be hard to beat in the long slog of Majors. Early upset might be the better option.
Yeah, I don't really buy that argument because it implies that they could win if only they felt like it. I think they're both aging, missing some tournaments, but when they play, they play to win.We all know how competitive Rafa especially is: he plays to win every match, set, point. Novak played his heart out to win the Tour Final and also won a Masters this year.

I think the "slow erosion" is due to the sheer difficulty of maintaining their prior dominance...it inevitably starts cracking. It is just that the dream wall or dam starts popping leaks, and they can't plug them all (that is, win every single tournament).

Furthermore, Next Gen is basically peaking. The best of them were born in 1996-98, so they turned 24-26 this year...that's pretty much the heart of most players' peaks. And I think they're better, as a group, than both Lost Gen and the second tier of the Rafa-Novak generation. So the gap has narrowed, and in that narrowing the younger guys are gradually picking off the more volatile (best of three) tournaments.

Speaking of Masters, here's their performance this year:

Novak: 11-3, losses to Rune, Alcaraz, Fokina.
Rafa: 8-5, losses to Paul, Coric, Shapovalov, Alcaraz, Fritz.

All young guys, with Coric the "old guy" (born 1996) among them. Rafa lost 4 of his last 5 matches at Masters, including two losses on clay.

Compare to last year:

Novak: 9-2, losses to Rafa, Sinner.
Rafa: 9-2, losses to Zverev, Rublev (both on clay).

Now Rafa in particular is skipping more tournaments, though I'm not sure if that's because he doesn't care or (more likely) because he's feeling his age and dealing with nagging injuries. But when he plays, he plays to win. Novak, too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fiero425

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
42,553
Reactions
13,758
Points
113
Yeah, I don't really buy that argument because it implies that they could win if only they felt like it. I think they're both aging, missing some tournaments, but when they play, they play to win.We all know how competitive Rafa especially is: he plays to win every match, set, point. Novak played his heart out to win the Tour Final and also won a Masters this year.

I think the "slow erosion" is due to the sheer difficulty of maintaining their prior dominance...it inevitably starts cracking. It is just that the dream wall or dam starts popping leaks, and they can't plug them all (that is, win every single tournament).

Furthermore, Next Gen is basically peaking. The best of them were born in 1996-98, so they turned 24-26 this year...that's pretty much the heart of most players' peaks. And I think they're better, as a group, than both Lost Gen and the second tier of the Rafa-Novak generation. So the gap has narrowed, and in that narrowing the younger guys are gradually picking off the more volatile (best of three) tournaments.

Speaking of Masters, here's their performance this year:

Novak: 11-3, losses to Rune, Alcaraz, Fokina.
Rafa: 8-5, losses to Paul, Coric, Shapovalov, Alcaraz, Fritz.

All young guys, with Coric the "old guy" (born 1996) among them. Rafa lost 4 of his last 5 matches at Masters, including two losses on clay.

Compare to last year:

Novak: 9-2, losses to Rafa, Sinner.
Rafa: 9-2, losses to Zverev, Rublev (both on clay).

Now Rafa in particular is skipping more tournaments, though I'm not sure if that's because he doesn't care or (more likely) because he's feeling his age and dealing with nagging injuries. But when he plays, he plays to win. Novak, too.
I don't mean to imply that they'd win if they cared to. I just mean that they keep their powder dry for the big moments, and there isn't as much powder as there used to be. I agree that they don't show up at Masters and treat them like practice sessions, but they do understand something about moving towards peak for the right moments. And you can't hit peak after peak like you used to. Here's an example that's not too stale, and it's a Nadal one, but, hey, I pay more attention to his career than any one else's: in 2020, when they played the Italian Open and Roland Garros in the fall, Nadal lost to Schwartzman in Rome in the QFs in straights, which was a big upset. (Novak won the tournament beating Schwartzman in the final.) Just a couple of weeks later, Rafa beat Schwartzman in straights in the SF of RG, then pretty well skunked Novak in the final. There is something to be said for knowing when to peak for the big moments, and letting others slide a bit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jelenafan

Nadalfan2013

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Aug 23, 2018
Messages
2,735
Reactions
1,395
Points
113
Djokovic won the ATP Finals but he played none of the players that I listed. :nono:

As for Nadal he’s irrelevant to this thread because he already has the slam record. :good:

Therefore the pressure is on Djokovic to beat the new blood. The pressure is on him to beat Alcarunelix. :bye:
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
42,553
Reactions
13,758
Points
113
Djokovic won the ATP Finals but he played none of the players that I listed. :nono:

As for Nadal he’s irrelevant to this thread because he already has the slam record. :good:

Therefore the pressure is on Djokovic to beat the new blood. The pressure is on him to beat Alcarunelix. :bye:
Rafa is still playing, so don't make him irrelevant. The rise of the youngsters will affect them both.

For the record:

Nadal is:

2-1 vs Alcaraz
2-1 vs FAA
0-0 vs Rune
 
  • Like
Reactions: MargaretMcAleer

Nadalfan2013

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Aug 23, 2018
Messages
2,735
Reactions
1,395
Points
113
Rafa is still playing, so don't make him irrelevant. The rise of the youngsters will affect them both.

For the record:

Nadal is:

2-1 vs Alcaraz
2-1 vs FAA
0-0 vs Rune

The point is that if they take over and stop them both then Nadal is at 22 slams and Djokovic at 21. So like I said, it's not about Nadal as he is the GOAT already and it's all about Djokovic. :bye:
 
  • Wow
Reactions: Fiero425

Jelenafan

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
3,601
Reactions
4,870
Points
113
Location
California, USA
The Danish angel Holger is ranked # 11, nobody wants him in the 4th round of the AO, including Djokovic.

Carlos & Holger are 19 and, barring major injury, probably far from peaking. Carlos won 3 consecutive 5 set matches in route to winning the USO, in addition to winning 2 Masters, and little Holger beat 5 top 10 players in 5 consecutive matches to win his first Masters. Those wins were not flukes by any stretch of the imagination.

I think that in 2023 and by extension the rest of his career Novak will end up on the losing end of the head2head with both Holger & Carlos.

If the Federites could scream/whine that Federer was beyond ancient (5 year gap) when Rafa/Novak were besting him by ages 19 & 21 and Federer was near dementia by ages 26/27, surely Novak ( and Rafa) understandably could start losing more to these guys that are 16 & 17 years younger than they are and in turn will turn 37 & 36 themselves next year.

Felix is an ancient 22 and his best days may be behind him. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moxie and tented

El Dude

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
9,709
Reactions
5,045
Points
113
I don't mean to imply that they'd win if they cared to. I just mean that they keep their powder dry for the big moments, and there isn't as much powder as there used to be. I agree that they don't show up at Masters and treat them like practice sessions, but they do understand something about moving towards peak for the right moments. And you can't hit peak after peak like you used to. Here's an example that's not too stale, and it's a Nadal one, but, hey, I pay more attention to his career than any one else's: in 2020, when they played the Italian Open and Roland Garros in the fall, Nadal lost to Schwartzman in Rome in the QFs in straights, which was a big upset. (Novak won the tournament beating Schwartzman in the final.) Just a couple of weeks later, Rafa beat Schwartzman in straights in the SF of RG, then pretty well skunked Novak in the final. There is something to be said for knowing when to peak for the big moments, and letting others slide a bit.
I hear you and basically agree (like the powder analogy ;)). The superhuman version would have more powder, I suppose.

I think the key, though, as far as regime change is concerned, is that no one can yet match Rafa's or Novak's A game. Maybe Alcaraz and Rune will get there, and maybe FAA and Sinner, but by the time those four peak--maybe 2-3 years--Rafa will likely be gone, and Novak a stringy old Serb hanging out in the 10-20 range.

So I think 2023 will be fun from a tennis perspective - assuming Rafa and Novak are healthy-ish, and the young guys are on the up and up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moxie

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
42,553
Reactions
13,758
Points
113
I hear you and basically agree (like the powder analogy ;)). The superhuman version would have more powder, I suppose.

I think the key, though, as far as regime change is concerned, is that no one can yet match Rafa's or Novak's A game. Maybe Alcaraz and Rune will get there, and maybe FAA and Sinner, but by the time those four peak--maybe 2-3 years--Rafa will likely be gone, and Novak a stringy old Serb hanging out in the 10-20 range.

So I think 2023 will be fun from a tennis perspective - assuming Rafa and Novak are healthy-ish, and the young guys are on the up and up.
I'm not sure how many we will get anytime soon anyone who can match Rafa/Novak/Roger's A-game, and certainly with their kind of sustainability for it. That's why eyes are on Alcaraz, because he's got a LOT of all of them in his kit bag. And while I hate to admit it, @Jelenafan's sainted young Rune, too, is looking impressive. And still have a lot of hope in FAA and Sinner, too, as you say. But the changing of the guard has been a slow, drawn out affair. Rafa and Novak not yet willing to cede the big turf. I will be very curious to see what 2023 brings.

The thing about this OP is that it mentions players, and including the ones we've added in, that have hit pretty high rankings. I'm curious about some of the lower-ranked comers, as spoilers. Coric is one, that fella Botic van den whatsis, Foki, Korda, and that perennial, Kyrgios. Guys like that.
 
Last edited:

El Dude

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
9,709
Reactions
5,045
Points
113
I'm not sure how many we will get anytime soon anyone who can match Rafa/Novak/Roger's A-game, and certainly with their kind of sustainability for it. That's why eyes are on Alcaraz, because he's got a LOT of all of them in his kit bag. And while I hate to admit it, @Jelenafan's sainted young Rune, too, is looking impressive. And still have a lot of hope in FAA and Sinner, too, as you say. But the changing of the guard has been a slow, drawn out affair. Rafa and Novak not yet willing to cede the big turf. I will be very curious to see what 2023 brings.

The thing about this OP is that it mentions players, and including the ones we've added in, that have hit pretty high rankings. I'm curious about some of the lower-ranked comers, as spoilers. Coric is one, that fella Botic van den whatsis, Foki, Korda, and that perennial, Kyrgios. Guys like that.

One of the events of 2022 that sort of passes us by and is forgotten is Carreno Busta's Masters title. He was the top ranked Lost Gen player this year, the only one in the top 20, and has been in the top 30 for seven years in a row. Not an elite, but quietly consistently good.

Among Millenials, Fokina is a guy who seems like he's been on the verge of a breakthrough for a couple years, but sort of stalled out in the 30-50 range. But I'm expecting him to jump to the 10-20 range soon, and start winning a minor tournament or two. Cerundolo, at least on clay, is another....at least as a "distant spoiler." Other under-the-radar guys: Brooksby, Nakashima, Draper, Baez. Kecmanovic has been around for a few years in the latter half of the top 100, and hasn't really taken that next step up.

I've also got my eye on a couple young French men (or boys): Luca Von Assche and Arthur Fils, as well as Italian Luca Nardi and Chinese Juncheng Shang. Not sure if they're any good, but very young (all teens..Shang is still 16, born in 2006!) and all ranked in the top 250.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tented and Moxie

El Dude

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
9,709
Reactions
5,045
Points
113
Nadalfan2013 is obsessed with Novak. Gee, I wonder why.
 
  • Like
Reactions: atttomole

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
42,553
Reactions
13,758
Points
113
That will actually catch on if those players do well. It’s better than Fedalovic or Fjokaladerer. Alcarunelix sounds like a rebel warrior king from Gaul running, raids on Julius Caesar…
It does sound like that French comic book. :)