Does Anthony Wilding deserve more respect historically?

[Michael;Kiwi]

I believe that Wilding was the greatest pre Gonzalez, Laver, Budge Rosewall player. However, no one has heard of him. He won Wimbledon 4 times in a row and it would have been more if not for dying in World War I.

 

[El Dude]

Nice random post, and welcome to the forum. I very much agree with you (except would say "greatest pre-Tilden player") and have said as much before in my blogs. He was super dominant until his death in a way that wasn't seen until Bill Tilden. According to TennisBase.com he was the #1 player seven of nine years from 1906-14, and #2 in the other two years.

 

[Horsa]

Nice random post, and welcome to the forum. I very much agree with you (except would say "greatest pre-Tilden player") and have said as much before in my blogs. He was super dominant until his death in a way that wasn't seen until Bill Tilden. According to TennisBase.com he was the #1 player seven of nine years from 1906-14, and #2 in the other two years.

I love your blogs as I think they're very well written & interesting. You have the ability to get people's attention, captivate them & make them want more. I haven't heard of those players & am fascinated by history. What are the chances of you writing a history-based tennis piece? (My history knowledge mainly includes soc. & economic, stage-coaching, medicine & all the usual.) I do love your mathematically involved pieces. Don't get me wrong. I used to do financial paperwork in a few places I was working & had to fill in statistical analysis forms of visitor & borrower figures when I worked in the library which I enjoyed. (I realise this may look like criticism but mean nothing wrong.) :0)

 

[El Dude]

Thanks, Ann. I don't really have the time right now, but a few years ago wrote a series on tennis generations, which you can still find on this site. It was more of a survey and focused on the Open Era, but is historical in nature.

 

[Horsa]

Thanks, Ann. I don't really have the time right now, but a few years ago wrote a series on tennis generations, which you can still find on this site. It was more of a survey and focused on the Open Era, but is historical in nature.

You're welcome, El Dude. I just thought I'd be cheeky as the worst thing you could say is no. Thank you very much for the information. I'll take a look.

 

[Mastoor]

My opinion is that, as far as tennis is concerned, New Zealanders should think about their future.

NZ is blessed with weather good enough to play tennis outdoors all year around, relatively large tennis base, clubs & courts on every couple of kilometers in urban areas, it is a rich country, there are some talents among children. However, besides everything on their side, there's hardly any recent success in tennis.

To compare with former Yugoslavia, that is not rich, where you can't play tennis in winter and with 10 times fewer registered players than NZ. They have 11 top 100 players at the moment, while there are no Kiwis at all in top 500 and only 5 in entire ATP list.

We had Chris Lewis here several years ago when he didn't want to talk about tennis in New Zealand.

 

[Horsa]

My opinion is that, as far as tennis is concerned, New Zealanders should think about their future.

NZ is blessed with weather good enough to play tennis outdoors all year around, relatively large tennis base, clubs & courts on every couple of kilometers in urban areas, it is a rich country, there are some talents among children. However, besides everything on their side, there's hardly any recent success in tennis.

To compare with former Yugoslavia, that is not rich, where you can't play tennis in winter and with 10 times fewer registered players than NZ. They have 11 top 100 players at the moment, while there are no Kiwis at all in top 500 and only 5 in entire ATP list.

We had Chris Lewis here several years ago when he didn't want to talk about tennis in New Zealand.

Huh? Where does this fit in with anything that's been said here before? I don't see any subtle word-play or word association links either. So please excuse my ignorance if I'm wrong but I just don't see any connection at all. No offence intended.

 

[Michael;Kiwi]

Huh? Where does this fit in with anything that's been said here before? I don't see any subtle word-play or word association links either. So please excuse my ignorance if I'm wrong but I just don't see any connection at all. No offence intended.

I'm a New Zealander as was Anthony Wilding. He is saying that I should focus on new prospects instead of looking at Pre World War I.

 

[Mastoor]

The topic is about a New Zealander who was before WW1 something like Federer is in last 15 years. Wilding is hardly ever mentioned in NZ, so no wonder they don't talk about him in the world.

 

[Mastoor]

I'm a New Zealander as was Anthony Wilding. He is saying that I should focus on new prospects instead of looking at Pre World War I.

Yes, but start from building a monument to Tony Wilding

 

[Horsa]

I'm a New Zealander as was Anthony Wilding. He is saying that I should focus on new prospects instead of looking at Pre World War I.

O.K. I know you were from New Zealand but didn't know Anthony Wilding was. I disagree with Mastoor. I find history as a whole fascinating & I think a lot of other people do so would be very interested in seeing more historical pieces. (I'm reading the age of horses at the moment which is about man's relationship with horses throughout history though it goes on to mention the horse's oldest ancestor the eohippus but any historical pieces at all would be interesting for me & maybe many more people.)

 

[Horsa]

The topic is about a New Zealander who was before WW1 something like Federer is in last 15 years. Wilding is hardly ever mentioned in NZ, so no wonder they don't talk about him in the world.

O.K. Thank you very much for your information. I get you now. Sorry for sounding a bit off it.

 

[Mastoor]

O.K. I know you were from New Zealand but didn't know Anthony Wilding was. I disagree with Mastoor. I find history as a whole fascinating & I think a lot of other people do so would be very interested in seeing more historical pieces. (I'm reading the age of horses at the moment which is about man's relationship with horses throughout history though it goes on to mention the horse's oldest ancestor the eohippus but any historical pieces at all would be interesting for me & maybe many more people.)

Speaking about horses and New Zealanders, they do have a Phar Lap statue in Timaru. They need one of Wilding.

 

[Horsa]

Speaking about horses and New Zealanders, they do have a Phar Lap statue in Timaru. They need one of Wilding.

You know I've got horses on the brain & if there's any way I can get horses into the conversation I will do. That sounds lovely. If I knew more about Wilding I would be able to offer my opinion but as I don't have enough information I have to stay out of this.

 

[Mastoor]

There is a statue somewhere, but I don't think it is anywhere in New Zealand

https://www.allposters.com.au/-sp/Statue-of-the-Tennis-Player-Anthony-Wilding-posters_i12777105_.htm

 

[Horsa]

There is a statue somewhere, but I don't think it is anywhere in New Zealand

https://www.allposters.com.au/-sp/Statue-of-the-Tennis-Player-Anthony-Wilding-posters_i12777105_.htm

In that case, I'll state that I change my mind about my right to have & air an opinion & say that as he was a New Zealand player & another country has a statue of him his own country should too.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

Yes, but start from building a monument to Tony Wilding

Sadly they not only forget their tennis history but also lose the young talent, namely Ben McLachlan who just switched allegiance to Japan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_McLachlan

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

history has not been kind to wilding.

.in fact his own time wasn't kind to his career, ww1 interrupted it, then he got blown up which was also bad news for his career.

better clay stats in terms of win/loss % than nadal. and possibly better w/l % on grass than Federer. (?)

won loads of tourneys from around 1902 or something till the great war. there is a great photo somewhere of wilding in mid action during one of his Wimbledon finals, with the early 20th c well to do spectators, ump, and scoreboard in view..i blew it up to 3or400% once to have a gander.

 

[El Dude]

I tend to see tennis history in three great eras:

"Prehistory" - starting around 1860 and before 1877; development of lawn tennis from various other games.
First Era - Starts in 1877 with the first Wimbledon.
Second Era - Starts in 1926 with the beginning of the pro circuit. Pro/amateur split era.
Third Era (Open Era) - Starts in 1968 to present.

Wilding was probably the greatest player of that first era, or at least until Bill Tilden came along in 1915 (although Tilden wasn't truly dominant until 1920 or so). Though the eras were quite different, he was about as dominant in his prime (1906-1914) as Tilden was in the 20s/30s, Gonzales in the 50s, or Laver in the 60s.

Using TennisBase's rankings (which I haven't had access to for a few years as they started charging exhorbitant prices), here are the players who they ranked #1 for at least three years:

13 Tilden
8 Laver
7 Wilding, Gonzales
5 L Doherty, Sampras, Federer
4 Ritchie, Budge, Lendl, Nadal, Djokovic
3 Barlow, Pim, Riggs, Rosewall, Connors, Borg, McEnroe

As you can see, it is a pretty short list and only two players had more years than Wilding. Of course given the size of the pool, the more recent the more each year is weighted. Regardless, Bill Tilden is also very underrated, perhaps partially because of his rather sordid proclivities.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

I tend to see tennis history in three great eras:

"Prehistory" - starting around 1860 and before 1877; development of lawn tennis from various other games.
First Era - Starts in 1877 with the first Wimbledon.
Second Era - Starts in 1926 with the beginning of the pro circuit. Pro/amateur split era.
Third Era (Open Era) - Starts in 1968 to present.

Wilding was probably the greatest player of that first era, or at least until Bill Tilden came along in 1915 (although Tilden wasn't truly dominant until 1920 or so). Though the eras were quite different, he was about as dominant in his prime (1906-1914) as Tilden was in the 20s/30s, Gonzales in the 50s, or Laver in the 60s.

Using TennisBase's rankings (which I haven't had access to for a few years as they started charging exhorbitant prices), here are the players who they ranked #1 for at least three years:

13 Tilden
8 Laver
7 Wilding, Gonzales
5 L Doherty, Sampras, Federer
4 Ritchie, Budge, Lendl, Nadal, Djokovic
3 Barlow, Pim, Riggs, Rosewall, Connors, Borg, McEnroe

As you can see, it is a pretty short list and only two players had more years than Wilding. Of course given the size of the pool, the more recent the more each year is weighted. Regardless, Bill Tilden is also very underrated, perhaps partially because of his rather sordid proclivities.

It could also have been due to homophobia in CA where Tilden lived. Even though today it seems unimaginable, people must have have been very homophobic back then, because sodomy law existed in CA until 1976.
According to his contemporary partners coaches and friends, including an authoritative biographer Frank Deford: "Tilden never made advances to players, whether other adults or his pupils". So, Tilden could have been framed into his acts, and said "sordid proclivities" were more a bias of social intolerance rather than an objective description.
EDIT: Note the charges against Tilden for his "proclivities" were filed when he was 53. Why not earlier? Another indication, he could have been framed after all.