Cincinnati Master 1000

[Moxie]

You answered your own question in brackets. It takes a long time to adjust and actually there is no guarantees that a player will successfully adjust to the new stick. THAT's the risk. It takes a real serious and risky commitment . So many players cannot pull the trigger on this issue because this is tinkering above and beyond. I am just a NTRP 6.0 player and it took me 30 years to finally give up the 85 Pro Staff (Old Sampras racket) . Imagine a guy like Roger giving up something that he won so much with. But he knew...and pulled the trigger. It is a lot more difficult than many think.

I'm not saying it wasn't difficult. I think it took him a long time to commit to it. This is my disagreement with Darth, who seems to remember that it worked out great, immediately.

 

[The Strokes]

Sampras knew that too, said afterwards many times, but he could not pull the trigger. It is a huge step, a huge risk that is not even guaranteed to work out.

The drummer part is still there but I have a drum shop now that takes most my time If you are not too far, drop by We'll talk tennis and music !

Yep, I think Ferrer changed recently (he had to be the last pro using a Prince, I always thought it was more frying pan than racquet) maybe that accounts for his drop in rankings, but now his seemingly sudden reappearance as a strong player.

Even I, as a public court hacker (but a great one) got so adapted to a Head, that I found all other racquets very hard to deal with. They're like extensions of your body.

The drum shop looks amazing (I checked out your link). I love drums, and would not mind being born again as a drummer. I may just wander up your way sometime in the future ... I'm in the GTA.

You like jazz? I have some great memories of seeing Art Blakey, Max Roach and Elvin Jones, live.

 

[DarthFed]

Perhaps we remember it differently, and I won't look it up now, but I remember Roger starting with the new stick, then going back for quite some time before he got used to it. I would challenge you that it paid dividends right away. Let's see whose memory is better.

The weight added to Rafa's stick is about adding heat to his serve, not topspin.

He first changed to the new racquet in the middle of 2013 when he was obviously struggling badly. He played two tournaments with it before the USO and decided to switch back. He then started using it again at the start of 2014 and clearly he was playing better right away than 2013 though being healthy was a big factor too. I'm not saying he did great with it in 2014 and 2015 (slamless years) but I think it helped and he would've been worse off sticking with the old racquet. It's tough to argue that he was "struggling" to adapt.

I remember certain Rafa and Nole fans insisting that his level was incredible for his age in 2014 and 2015. You'll remember I laughed at that notion and insisted he could do a hell of a lot better and here we are.

As for Rafa I'm pretty sure he's added weight to his racquet on several occasions with the purpose of generating more spin but I could be wrong.

 

[Murat B.]

I'm not saying it wasn't difficult. I think it took him a long time to commit to it. This is my disagreement with Darth, who seems to remember that it worked out great, immediately.

The part that is the key here is committing to it . Because it is such a big decision for a player, many end up never making it because it is not guaranteed to work. In Roger's case it paid dividends and extended his career. It might not have. That's why I look at it as a huge tinkering.

 

[Murat B.]

Yep, I think Ferrer changed recently (he had to be the last pro using a Prince, I always thought it was more frying pan than racquet) maybe that accounts for his drop in rankings, but now his seemingly sudden reappearance as a strong player.

Even I, as a public court hacker (but a great one) got so adapted to a Head, that I found all other racquets very hard to deal with. They're like extensions of your body.

The drum shop looks amazing (I checked out your link). I love drums, and would not mind being born again as a drummer. I may just wander up your way sometime in the future ... I'm in the GTA.

You like jazz? I have some great memories of seeing Art Blakey, Max Roach and Elvin Jones, live.

Thank you ! I love my jazz and the trio you mention above is the Mount Rushmore of jazz drummers right there It is awesome that you are in the GTA . Drop by any time !

 

[Moxie]

The part that is the key here is committing to it . Because it is such a big decision for a player, many end up never making it because it is not guaranteed to work. In Roger's case it paid dividends and extended his career. It might not have. That's why I look at it as a huge tinkering.

I'm perfectly admiring of Roger's adjustments. I was just reacting to Front's idea that he was the best ever at making them. He'd waited a long time to effect any changes. I do believe that Rafa has been the better at tinkering with his game, between the two of them.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

He first changed to the new racquet in the middle of 2013 when he was obviously struggling badly. He played two tournaments with it before the USO and decided to switch back. He then started using it again at the start of 2014 and clearly he was playing better right away than 2013 though being healthy was a big factor too. I'm not saying he did great with it in 2014 and 2015 (slamless years) but I think it helped and he would've been worse off sticking with the old racquet. It's tough to argue that he was "struggling" to adapt.

I remember certain Rafa and Nole fans insisting that his level was incredible for his age in 2014 and 2015. You'll remember I laughed at that notion and insisted he could do a hell of a lot better and here we are.

As for Rafa I'm pretty sure he's added weight to his racquet on several occasions with the purpose of generating more spin but I could be wrong.

The problem is not one of lack of commitment to the new racquet. The problem is bad timing to change the racquet. When you change it in the middle of the season, you are not giving yourself time to adjust to new wand. Once Roger realized that is the issue, he decided ok let me get used to the new wand during off season and then switch to it.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Yeah, but he waited a long time to make the change. Your contention that, "no one to date has been able to re-invent themselves to the extent he has," I think is not just a stretch, but fallacious. Of all the differences between Federer and Nadal, I think this is one of the more glaring. Nadal has always been adaptable, and Federer has come to it late in his career. Obviously Roger likes to play fast, and it benefits him as he gets older. But it's in part because he's not been as strong in the long run.

Rafa has not yet adapted to dealing with big servers. We all remember so many losses of him off clay to all sorts of big servers.

 

[Moxie]

Rafa has not yet adapted to dealing with big servers. We all remember so many losses of him off clay to all sorts of big servers.

Big servers get the better of them all once in a while, but Roger took until 35 to develop a better BH and somehow the stamina to withstand a 5-setter.

 

[Moxie]

The problem is not one of lack of commitment to the new racquet. The problem is bad timing to change the racquet. When you change it in the middle of the season, you are not giving yourself time to adjust to new wand. Once Roger realized that is the issue, he decided ok let me get used to the new wand during off season and then switch to it.

That took more than one season.

 

[Front242]

I'm perfectly admiring of Roger's adjustments. I was just reacting to Front's idea that he was the best ever at making them. He'd waited a long time to effect any changes. I do believe that Rafa has been the better at tinkering with his game, between the two of them.

Keep telling yourself that next time Rafa plays a 4+ hour match against a nobody while Roger is off the court in under 80 minutes. Confucius say: he who hits more winners and serves better finishes first.

 

[Front242]

Big servers get the better of them all once in a while, but Roger took until 35 to develop a better BH and somehow the stamina to withstand a 5-setter.

The latter part of your quote above re stamina is a nonsense notion started by Kieran who thinks Roger is now juicing, despite Rafa showing way more obvious signs of this for most of his career.

Roger's stamina has not improved much and he hasn't played any very long matches in quite some time. None of his 5 setters at the AO were physically draining matches really as the sets he lost, he lost by quite some margin which isn't anything like losing them in a close tiebreak and likewise the ones he won, were done and dusted pretty quickly. So no major impact on fatigue there.

 

[DarthFed]

Big servers get the better of them all once in a while, but Roger took until 35 to develop a better BH and somehow the stamina to withstand a 5-setter.

You mean it took until 35 and coming off a serious injury for him to become more aggressive. He always could've been doing this off his backhand and return but that wasn't his game. And there's the tinkering/reinventing aspect.

And stamina in 5th sets has rarely been the issue, just the mind mostly. Still laugh any time I see a Rafa fan imply another player's drug use.

 

[DarthFed]

Also I asked in an earlier post how Rafa is so adaptable and tinkered with his game? His serve was a downright liability when he started out and he still has extended periods where it sucks and I'm guessing that's what you are going to point out. I will say that he's a lot better at net, he used to be allergic to it. Roger, aside from a high 1HBH, had no weaknesses, so adapting to a much more aggressive game after 16 slams and changing to a new racquet after 17 slams is pretty impressive.

 

[Federberg]

I don't see why Roger would get so much cred for changing his racquet, (which actually took him a long time to adapt to,) when Rafa has been tinkering with his game, all along. And Rafa has added weight to the head of his racquet, which seems to be helping his serve.

They've all been tinkering with their games. I don't see anything exceptional in all of this. All players evolve. Not sure Roger has done anything unique, he's just been far more successful at it than anyone else. I would only add that Rafa's adaptations have generally been more player specific, that's far less profound that re-engineering your game against the entire field which I think is the distinction some people are making. The fact that it took Roger so long to adapt to playing against Rafa cannot be anything less than a demerit for Roger, and I'm a huge Fedfan. My attitude to what he's done this year is... "about fucking time!!!". But at the same time I can understand why it took Federer so long. If you're beating the field as successfully as he's done it really made no sense for him to change. At the end of the day you play professional tennis to win titles which he's done at a prodigious rate, so it's hard to criticise him too much

 

[The Strokes]

They've all been tinkering with their games. I don't see anything exceptional in all of this. All players evolve. Not sure Roger has done anything unique, he's just been far more successful at it than anyone else. I would only add that Rafa's adaptations have generally been more player specific, that's far less profound that re-engineering your game against the entire field which I think is the distinction some people are making. The fact that it took Roger so long to adapt to playing against Rafa cannot be anything less than a demerit for Roger, and I'm a huge Fedfan. My attitude to what he's done this year is... "about fucking time!!!". But at the same time I can understand why it took Federer so long. If you're beating the field as successfully as he's done it really made no sense for him to change. At the end of the day you play professional tennis to win titles which he's done at a prodigious rate, so it's hard to criticise him too much

Great post!
Rafa had that problem in 2011, beating everyone but Djok, so hard to want to change his game when it worked against all the rest. Total reliance on the ISOFH CC. Djok could send it back with interest.
But then in 2013 Rafa did handle Djok--it wasn't really that Rafa changed his game, Djok's level fell and Rafa's rose. But now, at least up until MOntreal, I would say Rafa's game has changed profoundly. This had to be Moya. But also being totally healthy again.
Rafa was very slow to bring in additional coaching. And now, without MOya there, we see alot of his old, not so great habits, coming back. I don't think Roger re-engineered his entire game, btw. It just looks like he learned to take the BH earlier.
I have noticed he can only do this on somewhat short BHs.

 

[The Strokes]

Rafa has not yet adapted to dealing with big servers. We all remember so many losses of him off clay to all sorts of big servers.

I thought this too, but after a few times he does get the read. Raonic, Isner, he beat Kyr twice in a row before this recent loss. He doesn't deal well with big servers he's not familliar with yet, and boom-boom nothing to lose lower ranked or young players on fast surfaces.

 

[mrzz]

I think -- a bit in line with what @Federberg said, that one thing is to evolve and improve shots, and other is to "reinvent" your game. When you improve your backhand -- and/or decide to use it more agressively, you're not reinventing your whole game. Also, I do not see where Nadal "reinvented" his game, at least not in this decade -- he has always been an extremely good tactician and most of the things we see on court were changes he was always able to do mid-match. From his teenage years up to 25, yes, his game evolved quite a bit. The later biggest change would be the serve at 2013 US open.

In other words, to change your tactics against one single player is just that, match tactics. Dimitrov killed Kyrgios with low slices in the Cincy final... smart tactics, but he did not reivented his game.

I would say that Federer started changing his overall strategy back with Annacone. But it was a natural, logical step back then, other steps were taken afterwards, and putting it all together, the move towards more aggression, the new racquet, training, rest, one tweak on the backhand, it all seems like a huge revolution, but it is not. It does not mean it is not difficult, specially the change of racquets as Murat is stressing.

All in all, Federer was able to reach a new, higher level of play (in comparison to his own self in the last five years to say the least), and that´s the great accomplishment.

In the "reinvention" category, I guess Nadal and Federer are close, but unlike other aspects, they are both not to high up in this scale. I am quite sure if we had time to pay more attention to lower ranked guys, we could see much bigger transformations (after all, those are the guys who actually need them).

 

[Carol]

Well, sometimes is not only to "reinvent" the game, it's also to reinvent the mind and then they can see more clear how to beat the opponent. Like mrzz has said Dimitrov just played with smart tactics. Hope Rafa will be able to do it too in the USO, he did before he can do now too it doesn't matter who will be at the other side of the net

 

[Federberg]

Great post!
Rafa had that problem in 2011, beating everyone but Djok, so hard to want to change his game when it worked against all the rest. Total reliance on the ISOFH CC. Djok could send it back with interest.
But then in 2013 Rafa did handle Djok--it wasn't really that Rafa changed his game, Djok's level fell and Rafa's rose. But now, at least up until MOntreal, I would say Rafa's game has changed profoundly. This had to be Moya. But also being totally healthy again.
Rafa was very slow to bring in additional coaching. And now, without MOya there, we see alot of his old, not so great habits, coming back. I don't think Roger re-engineered his entire game, btw. It just looks like he learned to take the BH earlier.
I have noticed he can only do this on somewhat short BHs.

I'm intrigued, in what way has Rafa profoundly changed his game. I haven't noticed too much this year, only his health. In fact the one thing I've noticed has been that a lot of people have employed similar tactics to Roger against Rafa. Go hard into Rafa's forehand. What do you see that Rafa has done this year that marks a profound change?