Young Guns Discussion

El Dude

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True. Obviously we just don't know, and almost certainly some of the young guns won't pan out. On that list, the only players I feel confident in saying will "probably" be top 10 are--aside from Thiem, who is already there--Kyrgios, Zverev, Fritz, and probably Pouille. I could go either way on Tiafoe, Kozlov and Rublev, but all three have the talent to be top 10 (although from what I gather, Kozlov isn't quite as talented but has good tennis smarts--maybe a David Goffin type). Coric looks more like another Tomic or Simon to me (so more top 20). It is too soon to say re: Shapovalov, but all signs are good.
 

herios

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El Dude said:
True. Obviously we just don't know, and almost certainly some of the young guns won't pan out. On that list, the only players I feel confident in saying will "probably" be top 10 are--aside from Thiem, who is already there--Kyrgios, Zverev, Fritz, and probably Pouille. I could go either way on Tiafoe, Kozlov and Rublev, but all three have the talent to be top 10 (although from what I gather, Kozlov isn't quite as talented but has good tennis smarts--maybe a David Goffin type). Coric looks more like another Tomic or Simon to me (so more top 20). It is too soon to say re: Shapovalov, but all signs are good.

I would say let's wait and see what happens. You just cannot pick all the teenagers on the radar and slap them together like the bunch who will lead the sport in a few years., It does not work like that.
For some reason some are pretty strong among juniors, then they just stop developing.
Remember Christian Garin hyped here a year or so ago ? He was higher ranked when 17 or 18 than at 19. Or Ymer, who got stuck in the top 100-200 for sometime now? Then there is the Harrison trajectory or even worse the Janowicz who managed SF in a slam and now he plays challengers.
Some of them will just get passed or play second or third type of roles, or simply top 100 journeyman.
 

El Dude

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Yes, which is why I said "true." My re-framing was based on the idea that you can't just pick all teenagers and project them forward. For example, in 2010 the top ranked player age 20 and under was Ricardas Berankis at #87. He's pretty much been a lower top 100 player since. There are many other such examples.

That said, the point of this thread is to talk about young players who have a chance to be very good, even great. All the names I mentioned have potential.

But it is interesting to consider what makes a talented young player blossom and what leads to stagnation. A player I've been touting for awhile is Andrey Rublev, whose game I just like. But he's been very stagnant this year and now I've had to temper expectations, to the point that I really question whether he has that "X-factor" needed to succeed.

Finally, as I've mentioned in various blog articles, there are some significant benchmarks to keep an eye out for. For instance, top 100 before turning 19. Not every such player turns into a star, but a good percentage do.

By way of example, of players born in the 80s, 21 reached the top 100 as 18-year olds. I think 21 players is large enough of a sample size to be, if not definitive, at least meaningful. Here are how those 21 breakdown:

3 became all-time greats (6+ Slams): Federer, Nadal, Djokovic
3 became multi-Slam winners (2-5 Slams): Safin, Hewitt, Murray
2 became single Slam winners: Roddick, del Potro
3 won at least a Masters: Robredo, Coria, Berdych
6 became good players: Youzhny, Ancic, Monfils, Gasquet, Gulbis, Nishikori
4 didn't amount to much: Vinciguerra, Acasuso, Korolev, Young

To put that another way, about two-fifths (38%) won at least a single Slam, more than half (52%) won at least a Masters, and 81% had at least good careers. Only 19% were flops.

Here are the players in the 90s that have reached the top 100 as 18-year olds (so far): Tomic, Chung, Coric, Zverev, Fritz. Tiafoe is on the cusp and should get there. Shapovalov has tons of time and barring major set-backs will get there. A few others have outside chances: Kozlov, Rublev, Lee, Tsitsapis, etc. Of the five who have made it so far, I would guess that Zverev and Fritz will be Slam winners, Coric and Tomic will be (is already, for Tomic) top 20 types ("good") and Chung will disappoint. So that would be very similar percentages.

As a side note, it looks clear that far fewer players born in the 90s will reach this benchmark. This breaks from historical precedent, as by my count, 20 players born in both the 60s and 70s reached the benchmark. Even given that I may be missing one or two players in each decade, that is remarkable consistency. But among players born in the 90s, it looks like anywhere from about 6 to 10 will accomplish the feat. I'm not sure the same rough percentages will hold up; maybe that there are fewer indicates that it is more rarified, and thus the players that do reach this benchmark could be better.
 

herios

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El Dude said:
True. Obviously we just don't know, and almost certainly some of the young guns won't pan out. On that list, the only players I feel confident in saying will "probably" be top 10 are--aside from Thiem, who is already there--Kyrgios, Zverev, Fritz, and probably Pouille. I could go either way on Tiafoe, Kozlov and Rublev, but all three have the talent to be top 10 (although from what I gather, Kozlov isn't quite as talented but has good tennis smarts--maybe a David Goffin type). Coric looks more like another Tomic or Simon to me (so more top 20). It is too soon to say re: Shapovalov, but all signs are good.

Just watch what they are able to accomplish right here at the USO. Kozlov is out in he first round of Q, losing to veteran Berrer in 3 sets. their anking was very close to each other, Berrer at 145 and Kozlov at 155.
 

El Dude

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I'm watching. That result in and of itself doesn't tell us much, except that Kozlov is competitive--but not dominant--at his ranking, which is pretty good for an 18-year old, especially in today's context.

As our resident Canadian expert, can you give me a sense of Shapovalov's game and upside? Weapons, movement, serve, etc? I did watch a few minutes of a match and liked what I saw, although like Zverev and the other young guys I didn't see anything obviously explosive.
 

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Reilly Opelka is going to miss the top 100 by 19 wicket, which for him closes this Sunday, but he has a good shot of making an impact in the future. Hopefully a little bit more than an Isner/Karlovic redux, but that isn't really all that bad of a career either.

I'm hoping for Zverev or Fritz to make a QF run this year. Don't know or really care which one- but I think one of them is going to do it.
 

El Dude

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Zverev is closer to it, but he also seems tired and has seen his performance drop off a bit the last month or two.

Opelka seemed to come out of nowhere. How does he move for a big guy?
 

delPoFearhand

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El Dude said:
Opelka seemed to come out of nowhere. How does he move for a big guy?

It seems pretty good (given his size). I've only watched one match of his, but have heard various American players & commentators talking him up.

Also, his form on all of his strokes seems to be really good- obviously a big serve, but also consistent and powerful FH and BH. Of course, I was watching him right after watching a Tiafoe match so... his form could hardly look bad.
 

herios

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El Dude said:
Opelka seemed to come out of nowhere. How does he move for a big guy?


Opelka is the winner of the Wimbledon boys event in 2015, where he beat Fritz in the final. Then he did not do much for over a year or so, but I think he may have been injured.

So he is in the same category as Fritz or Tommy Paul (who won RG boys event).
So far Fritz has had the best start on the main ATP tour of these three, Opelka now catching up to Paul, who is not able to make much inroads.
 

El Dude

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I get to correct herios, for once! Opelka beat Mikael Ymer in the 2015 boy's Wimbledon final, not Taylor Fritz. He beat Fritz in the SF.
 

herios

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Not impressed by Rublev either, lost in QR1 at the USO to a serbian Zekic, I have never heard of.
 

herios

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El Dude said:
I get to correct herios, for once! Opelka beat Mikael Ymer in the 2015 boy's Wimbledon final, not Taylor Fritz. He beat Fritz in the SF.

Yes, you are correct, it was my mistake.
 

El Dude

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In a few months I'll do a "Young Guns Year in Review" blog, where I look at all the young guys and talk about how they did and maybe try to pinpoint breakout candidates for next year.

I'm holding out hope that Rublev will figure things out, but he's been really stagnant for most of this year. He's in danger of becoming another Jared Donaldson or Elias Ymer: stuck in Qualification/Challenger limbo.

As I see it, there are actually several breakthroughs, or mini breakthroughs, to look for - and I'm not talking about my criteria thing. There's the "first breakthrough," which is essentially mastering the Futures and getting into the Challenger circuit, so getting into the top 250 or so. Shapovalov is trying to get over the hump right now and seems to be on his way.

The second breakthrough is winning a Challenger or two, getting on the cusp of the top 100. This is where players like Ymer, Donaldson, and Rublev are stuck.

The third breakthrough is a big one, because it means getting into the top 100 and past Qualification Hell. But it is also easy to get stuck there, in 40ish to 100s range - or rather, un-seeded at Slams (so ranked outside the top 32). Tiafoe is just on the cusp of this; Fritz did it earlier in the year, and Coric has been stuck here for over a year now.

The fourth breakthrough usually involves winning a lower title or two and going deeper into Slams, getting from the 20-40 range into the top 20. We've seen Nick Kyrgios and Lucas Pouille accomplish this this year.

The fifth breakthrough is a furthering of the last, getting into the top 10 as a true elite player. Dominic Thiem is the example this year.

I suppose you could say there's a sixth and seventh; the sixth being top 5 and a Slam title, and the seventh being #1.
 

El Dude

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16-year old Felix Auger Aliassime just beat the #1 boy, Stefanos Tsitsipas, in the boy's semifinal, reaching his second Slam final this year (he lost the French Open).

Anyhow, if you want a potential next great player, Aliassime is as good a candidate as any. The sky is the limit with this kid and I think he's going to breakthrough very young. I just hope he can stay healthy (he's got a heart condition).
 

delPoFearhand

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Gotta give it up for Jared Donaldson- snubbed for a main draw wildcard and overlooked by many (including myself). Goes out there, wins three qualifying matches handily and takes two matches off of much higher ranked players. Maybe could have gone further if he hadn't run into good serving day Dr. Ivo. Hopefully he can back it up in the Asian hard court season, and move more solidly into the top 100 by the beginning of next year.

I think a realistic stretch goal for him is to get automatic entry to the AO.
 

herios

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delPoFearhand said:
Gotta give it up for Jared Donaldson- snubbed for a main draw wildcard and overlooked by many (including myself). Goes out there, wins three qualifying matches handily and takes two matches off of much higher ranked players. Maybe could have gone further if he hadn't run into good serving day Dr. Ivo. Hopefully he can back it up in the Asian hard court season, and move more solidly into the top 100 by the beginning of next year.

I think a realistic stretch goal for him is to get automatic entry to the AO.


He did that already. He is now ranked 97.
He will need to back it up, as you say, because the 80-120 ranking range is very slippery.
For example, the 20 y old Khachanov, who also just recorded a new ranking high at 81, will drop next week right out of the top 100, slipping 20 spots. I am guessing some points earned on the challenger circuit a year ago are removed.
 

El Dude

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Although Khachanov is #92 in the Race rankings, so he still should be able to finish the year in the top 100. Donaldson's at #93 in the Race rankings. Tiafoe's really close at 113.
 

El Dude

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Another young guy to keep an eye on: Norwegian Casper Ruud. He started the year as the #1 junior and just won his first Challenger at the tender age of 17. He turns 18 in December. He's currently ranked #227 in the live Race to London rankings, just behind fellow 17-year old Denis Shapovalov at #207.
 

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Seville is a beautiful city to do anything in, so congrats to him for winning a tennis tournament there.
 

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El Dude said:
Another young guy to keep an eye on: Norwegian Casper Ruud. He started the year as the #1 junior and just won his first Challenger at the tender age of 17. He turns 18 in December. He's currently ranked #227 in the live Race to London rankings, just behind fellow 17-year old Denis Shapovalov at #207.

As a Norwegian myself, the whole country is rooting for him.

His father is Christian Ruud, which was ranked 30-40s on ATP at one point, they have the money, sponsors, experience, coach. He will likely succeed in due time. The question is only how far he can go.

I am struggling to see his weapons, he looks to have a Nishikori'esque style..

/BC