Wimbledon 2014 final: Federer vs Djokovic

[DarthFed]

RE: Rankings

I give him credit for fighting back in both matches. He showed a champ's heart both times. Nothing wrong with that, feller...

So he was supposed to badly underachieve and get blown out? He did amazing to pull off the 4th but played an awful 5th set this year. Still I will agree that he fought great throughout until the 5th, the 3rd set was amazing stuff from both guys really. Roger had to be shocked he lost it with the way he served and that might have led to his big dropoff at the start of the 4th.

In 2008 he decided to show up after 2.5 sets...and then still showed a lot of weakness in the 5th, hitting errors left and right in the big moments at the end.

Trust me... in 2008 it was too dark to play. At the time my house was a 5 minute walk away from the courts. I would have stopped playing on the public courts in Wimbledon Park with the light at the start of the 5th set. Clearly Rafa handled the dark better than Roger did. I recall feeling the same way as a Roddick loss in the dark against Monfils at Roland Garros one year. Couldn't believe they were still playing...

It did seem questionable but they both played in the same conditions. Fair play to whoever handles them better.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Rankings

And your memory is free of bias I suppose?

I should know never to debate someone who is always correct! We will always disagree on 2008, and it is especially rich to suggest anything would've been different had there been no rain delay. It was 5-5 in the 3rd so you're basically left saying Rafa would've broken serve at 5-5 right away or Roger would've played an awful tiebreak had there been no delay.

It didn't take much heart to get back in that match...his level went from non existent to normal. At no point did he really step up to a great level in that match aside from the 3rd set TB and 2nd half of the 4th set TB.

I didn't say it would be different if there was no rain delay - I felt Rafa should have broke at 0-40 and 4-3 up in the 3rd. But that's the life, eh? Good to have a minor Fedal war before lunch. Novak got lost in all this, but that's the way of these things...

 

[DarthFed]

RE: Rankings

Ah, Rafa should have broken at 0-40 but Roger shouldn't have been better than 1-12 on bp's? Roger had multiple break points earlier in the 3rd than Rafa did. All said and done Rafa got let off the hook easily that day as in Rafa didn't have to play at a very high level to win and mostly let Roger drown in a million UE's. But Roger wasn't going to totally humiliate himself.

 

[Federberg]

RE: Rankings

Ah, Rafa should have broken at 0-40 but Roger shouldn't have been better than 1-12 on bp's? Roger had multiple break points earlier in the 3rd than Rafa did. All said and done Rafa got let off the hook easily that day as in Rafa didn't have to play at a very high level to win and mostly let Roger drown in a million UE's. But Roger wasn't going to totally humiliate himself.

I admire your persistence Roger has consistently been one of the best at defending breakpoints, but people with bias don't let the facts get in the way of a dodgy narrative. No attention is paid to the fact that he even underperforms his shakey breakpoint conversion rate when he plays Rafa. People will focus on what they want to because of their biases

 

[DarthFed]

RE: Rankings

^ No question about that. It gets funny after awhile having these conversations. It's a very backwards way of thinking from Kieran...Roger only does well when he loses. I think Rafa's best match is his loss to Soderling. What an incredible performance

 

[Federberg]

RE: Rankings

^ No question about that. It gets funny after awhile having these conversations. It's a very backwards way of thinking from Kieran...Roger only does well when he loses. I think Rafa's best match is his loss to Soderling. What an incredible performance

Too funny! It's just damning by faint praise. A very transparent, if slippery tactic :laydownlaughing

 

[Kieran]

RE: Rankings

It's a very backwards way of thinking from Kieran...Roger only does well when he loses.

:laydownlaughing

If only that was what I said, eh? lot

 

[herios]

RE: Rankings

No matter what the thread is, you guys are ending up discussing that famous Wimbledon 2008 final:laydownlaughing
Then you have to research how on earth the narrative ended up there, that is like a magnet, or a black holeuzzled

 

[DarthFed]

RE: Rankings

It's a very backwards way of thinking from Kieran...Roger only does well when he loses.

:laydownlaughing

If only that was what I said, eh? lot

Usually the only times you "praise" him is after he loses a big match...

 

[Billie]

You should have merged these few posts to Wimbledon 2008 final, tented.

:laydownlaughing

 

[Billie]

It's a very backwards way of thinking from Kieran...Roger only does well when he loses.

:laydownlaughing

If only that was what I said, eh? lot

Usually the only times you "praise" him is after he loses a big match...

When is the time when you praise Rafa?:exclamation:

 

[DarthFed]

Never! I don't play petty games, yall should know that by now

 

[the AntiPusher]

Nah, You aint petty.. you just aint gonna ever show Rafa any love.. it aint Happening

 

[Fiero425]

Nah, You aint petty.. you just ain't gonna ever show Rafa any love.. it ain't happening

Since I'm on a roll trying to squash any recognition of the existence of Rafa Nadal, let me add on the subject of "no love" for a player! I think we all have what some might call a bias, when in our minds we have a legitimate reason why a particular player is not so deserving of all their accolades! In my era the top dog was Jimmy Connors and the obvious villain and foil when there was a single's contest! He has the most complete record for his time winning 3 majors (AO,W, USO) in '74 alone, but like Rafa, he had obvious holes in his game and weaknesses were glaring! He came along with a very aggressive game from the baseline as well and took advantage of the players put forth; old man Rosewall in both W and USO finals in '74! :cover His confidence was fueled and he went from there until his opponents started being more cerebral in their approach to playing him; Ashe & Borg at W, Orantes at '75 USO, and Ilie Nastase when he could control his emotions! I feel good about Connors' status as it is now; recognized well, but nowhere near as ICONIC as he would have thought when he retired! :clap

I can only hope besides Roger holding onto his legend and records, that other players like Nole will surpass Rafa in some circumstances as well! In my mind, I won't ever be able to get it to wrap around such a player being THE GOAT with obvious deficiencies! Like Serena with her on again, off again willingness to play and represent "the game," Nadal hasn't been able to hold onto the #1 ranking for any real length of time in comparison to Fed and Sampras! He normally fades after the summer with horrible losses in the fall and no Masters win! Even players like Nalbandian, Corretja, and Davydenko have won the WTF! :nono He owns all 4 majors and should be commended for it, but it's a little weighted on clay winning 9 FO! Other greats have more of a balance with more USO's and Wimbledons! He has got to take another couple majors in London and New York before I get off this feeling! So far, it hasn't looked promising losing earlier and earlier on grass to wildcards, qualifiers, and never-weres! You just didn't see that happen too often to Sampras, Federer, Borg, Connors, and even Lendl! Enough of my rant! Sorry! :angel: :nono :dodgy:

 

[Kieran]

Never apologise for your rants, Fiero, they're a white knuckle ride, if only to see if you ever use full stops instead of exclamations! But I get it, Rafa excites you that much... :snigger

 

[the AntiPusher]

Nah, You aint petty.. you just ain't gonna ever show Rafa any love.. it ain't happening

Since I'm on a roll trying to squash any recognition of the existence of Rafa Nadal, let me add on the subject of "no love" for a player! I think we all have what some might call a bias, when in our minds we have a legitimate reason why a particular player is not so deserving of all their accolades! In my era the top dog was Jimmy Connors and the obvious villain and foil when there was a single's contest! He has the most complete record for his time winning 3 majors (AO,W, USO) in '74 alone, but like Rafa, he had obvious holes in his game and weaknesses were glaring! He came along with a very aggressive game from the baseline as well and took advantage of the players put forth; old man Rosewall in both W and USO finals in '74! :cover His confidence was fueled and he went from there until his opponents started being more cerebral in their approach to playing him; Ashe & Borg at W, Orantes at '76 USO, and Ilie Nastase when he could control his emotions! I feel good about Connors' status as it is now; recognized well, but nowhere near as ICONIC as he would have thought when he retired! :clap

I can only hope besides Roger holding onto his legend and records, that other players like Nole will surpass Rafa in some circumstances as well! In my mind, I won't ever be able to get it to wrap around such a player being THE GOAT with obvious deficiencies! Like Serena with her on again, off again willingness to play and represent "the game," Nadal hasn't been able to hold onto the #1 ranking for any real length of time in comparison to Fed and Sampras! He normally fades after the summer with horrible losses in the fall and no Masters win! Even players like Nalbandian, Corretja, and Davydenko have won the WTF! :nono He owns all 4 majors and should be commended for it, but it's a little weighted on clay winning 9 FO! Other greats have more of a balance with more USO's and Wimbledons! He has got to take another couple majors in London and New York before I get off this feeling! So far, it hasn't looked promising losing earlier and earlier on grass to wildcards, qualifiers, and never-weres! You just didn't see that happen too often to Sampras, Federer, Borg, Connors, and even Lendl! Enough of my rant! Sorry! :angel: :nono :dodgy:

to be revisited next year.. I make sure I will give it a bump

 

[Federberg]

Nah, You aint petty.. you just ain't gonna ever show Rafa any love.. it ain't happening

Since I'm on a roll trying to squash any recognition of the existence of Rafa Nadal, let me add on the subject of "no love" for a player! I think we all have what some might call a bias, when in our minds we have a legitimate reason why a particular player is not so deserving of all their accolades! In my era the top dog was Jimmy Connors and the obvious villain and foil when there was a single's contest! He has the most complete record for his time winning 3 majors (AO,W, USO) in '74 alone, but like Rafa, he had obvious holes in his game and weaknesses were glaring! He came along with a very aggressive game from the baseline as well and took advantage of the players put forth; old man Rosewall in both W and USO finals in '74! :cover His confidence was fueled and he went from there until his opponents started being more cerebral in their approach to playing him; Ashe & Borg at W, Orantes at '76 USO, and Ilie Nastase when he could control his emotions! I feel good about Connors' status as it is now; recognized well, but nowhere near as ICONIC as he would have thought when he retired! :clap

I can only hope besides Roger holding onto his legend and records, that other players like Nole will surpass Rafa in some circumstances as well! In my mind, I won't ever be able to get it to wrap around such a player being THE GOAT with obvious deficiencies! Like Serena with her on again, off again willingness to play and represent "the game," Nadal hasn't been able to hold onto the #1 ranking for any real length of time in comparison to Fed and Sampras! He normally fades after the summer with horrible losses in the fall and no Masters win! Even players like Nalbandian, Corretja, and Davydenko have won the WTF! :nono He owns all 4 majors and should be commended for it, but it's a little weighted on clay winning 9 FO! Other greats have more of a balance with more USO's and Wimbledons! He has got to take another couple majors in London and New York before I get off this feeling! So far, it hasn't looked promising losing earlier and earlier on grass to wildcards, qualifiers, and never-weres! You just didn't see that happen too often to Sampras, Federer, Borg, Connors, and even Lendl! Enough of my rant! Sorry! :angel: :nono :dodgy:

For my part I'm no fan of Nadal, but I struggle to identify glaring weaknesses. Yes he's markedly stronger on clay than on other surfaces, but I think he's done enough on other surfaces to garner respect. If I have any issues where he's concerned it's more to do with his antics which - in my opinion - border on unsportsmanlike (time-wasting, opportune injury/ toilet breaks and of course the biggest one... coaching). He's by no means the worst or the only player in some of these aspects, I just find it particularly annoying from him because I really don't think it's necessary.

Even with all this, my frustration is at least partially directed at officialdom and their utter spinelessness in terms of reigning it in. Even greater than the aforementioned is my contempt for some (I repeat.. some..) Rafa-fans who seem to have such deficits in their lives it almost seems as if they try to exist vicariously through his success, but hey.. it is what it is. Others like Moxie and BS (to name a few) are completely reasonable.

My final (and probably biggest) bug bear is the manufactured narrative in the media and also amongst his fans that most of his losses are due to injuries.. at least it feels that way to us non fans.

But as to the quality of his tennis? It simply cannot be denied. It's simply too good, too strong and he's unquestionably one of the 3 most accomplised players to ever play the game. The facts just can't be argued with. To do so is to open oneself to accusations of being delusional in my view. You don't have to like the guy.. but.. he really is that good I don't get any particular joy from watching him play, it's true.. but it's just a question of taste

 

[Fiero425]

Never apologise for your rants, Fiero, they're a white knuckle ride, if only to see if you ever use full stops instead of exclamations! But I get it, Rafa excites you that much... :snigger

I should really preview my posts! Going from memory in my advancing years, I sometimes blow a date by a year! Orantes won USO over Jimmy Connors in '75, not '76! It was on clay and what makes it more noteworthy, Orantes had to survive late into the night coming back in 5 sets against Vilas! I didn't give Manuel much of a chance, but he toyed with Connors, giving him no pace and didn't come into the net for Jimmy to have a target to hit at! It was a well thought out plan like Ashe at Wimbledon a couple months before with the touch and feel of Nastase! I wonder why they don't play any of those classic matches?

 

[Denis]

That was spot on Federberg.

 

[Fiero425]

Nah, You aint petty.. you just ain't gonna ever show Rafa any love.. it ain't happening

Since I'm on a roll trying to squash any recognition of the existence of Rafa Nadal, let me add on the subject of "no love" for a player! I think we all have what some might call a bias, when in our minds we have a legitimate reason why a particular player is not so deserving of all their accolades! In my era the top dog was Jimmy Connors and the obvious villain and foil when there was a single's contest! He has the most complete record for his time winning 3 majors (AO,W, USO) in '74 alone, but like Rafa, he had obvious holes in his game and weaknesses were glaring! He came along with a very aggressive game from the baseline as well and took advantage of the players put forth; old man Rosewall in both W and USO finals in '74! :cover His confidence was fueled and he went from there until his opponents started being more cerebral in their approach to playing him; Ashe & Borg at W, Orantes at '76 USO, and Ilie Nastase when he could control his emotions! I feel good about Connors' status as it is now; recognized well, but nowhere near as ICONIC as he would have thought when he retired! :clap

I can only hope besides Roger holding onto his legend and records, that other players like Nole will surpass Rafa in some circumstances as well! In my mind, I won't ever be able to get it to wrap around such a player being THE GOAT with obvious deficiencies! Like Serena with her on again, off again willingness to play and represent "the game," Nadal hasn't been able to hold onto the #1 ranking for any real length of time in comparison to Fed and Sampras! He normally fades after the summer with horrible losses in the fall and no Masters win! Even players like Nalbandian, Corretja, and Davydenko have won the WTF! :nono He owns all 4 majors and should be commended for it, but it's a little weighted on clay winning 9 FO! Other greats have more of a balance with more USO's and Wimbledons! He has got to take another couple majors in London and New York before I get off this feeling! So far, it hasn't looked promising losing earlier and earlier on grass to wildcards, qualifiers, and never-weres! You just didn't see that happen too often to Sampras, Federer, Borg, Connors, and even Lendl! Enough of my rant! Sorry! :angel: :nono :dodgy:

For my part I'm no fan of Nadal, but I struggle to identify glaring weaknesses. Yes he's markedly stronger on clay than on other surfaces, but I think he's done enough on other surfaces to garner respect. If I have any issues where he's concerned it's more to do with his antics which - in my opinion - border on unsportsmanlike (time-wasting, opportune injury/ toilet breaks and of course the biggest one... coaching). He's by no means the worst or the only player in some of these aspects, I just find it particularly annoying from him because I really don't think it's necessary.

Even with all this, my frustration is at least partially directed at officialdom and their utter spinelessness in terms of reigning it in. Even greater than the aforementioned is my contempt for some (I repeat.. some..) Rafa-fans who seem to have such deficits in their lives it almost seems as if they try to exist vicariously through his success, but hey.. it is what it is. Others like Moxie and BS (to name a few) are completely reasonable.

My final (and probably biggest) bug bear is the manufactured narrative in the media and also amongst his fans that most of his losses are due to injuries.. at least it feels that way to us non fans.

But as to the quality of his tennis, it simply can't be denied. It's simply too good, too strong, and he's unquestionably one of the 3 most accomplished players to ever play the game. The facts just can't be argued with. To do so is to open oneself to accusations of being delusional in my view. You don't have to like the guy.. but.. he really is that good I don't get any particular joy from watching him play, it's true.. but it's just a question of taste.

You hit the rest of it about his "unsportsmanlike" behavior! My post was already the length of a pamphlet! lol! :snigger