Wimbledon 2014 final: Federer vs Djokovic

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Kieran

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Roger squeaked the first set, Darth, Novak should have been towelling off after a routine straight sets, or 4 set, victory in that match. He threw away the first and fourth sets. Got a dose of the vapours.

Roger didn't hand him anything on a silver platter...
 

Denis

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Kieran said:
Roger squeaked the first set, Darth, Novak should have been towelling off after a routine straight sets, or 4 set, victory in that match. He threw away the first and fourth sets. Got a dose of the vapours.

Roger didn't hand him anything on a silver platter...

That's how I saw it too. Granted Federer did play very well at the end of the fourth, but it should not have come to that.
 

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DarthFed said:
Novak wasn't dominant in sets 1 or 3. And Roger handed him the 5th on a silver platter.
Actualy he was ,had SP in all of 5 sets, spetially he should won that first set of Wimbledon final.
 

masterclass

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First time I heard that a player can be dominant while losing a set or even eking out a close one.

Dominating a sport in almost all definitions I've seen means you are practically totally in control, in tennis that would be winning most of your service games easily (rarely reaching deuce) and putting pressure on almost every service game of the opponent and breaking them a couple of times.

In the Wimbledon 2014 final, the first set saw neither player force a break point, though there were a few games (mostly Federer's) that went to deuce. A tiebreak was required to decide the first set and it saw Federer come from two separate set points down to take it 9–7.

1st set conclusion: Federer eked the set win out, but it obviously wasn't a set dominated by either player.


The second set had Djokovic breaking early, on Federer's second service game of the set, following a long hold on his 1st service game of the set. Thereafter, Djokovic called for a trainer, but he seemed fine when he resumed play, and it was pretty even the rest of the set with both players holding serve comfortably until Djokovic served for the set at 5-4 and it went to deuce. Federer had a break point but could do nothing with it, and Djokovic took the set 6-4.

2nd set conclusion: With the single break of serve, Djokovic was better in the set, but hardly dominating.

The 3rd set went very routinely with both players holding serve comfortably, with Federer's serve becoming more and more potent including a perfect ace game to move ahead 5-4. Djokovic held well again for 5-5. Then on the Federer serve, it went to deuce and Novak had a break point before Federer came back with some good serving to hold for 6-5. Novak leveled for 6-6 to force a tiebreaker. Novak got the early mini-break to go ahead 3-2, but Federer gets it back to make it 4-3. But then Federer gave it right back when he hit a forehand wide to make it 3-5. He closed the gap to 4-5 with a good serve, but then Nole closed it out on his next two serves.

3rd set conclusion: An even set, eked out by Djokovic in the tiebreaker (a reversal on the 1st set)

The 4th set was probably the most intriguing and up and down of the match. All was even until Djokovic broke Federer to go up 3-1. When many Federer fans feared the worst, Federer broke Djokovic straight back for 2-3 with some of his most aggressive play from the ground in the match. But then Federer was broken again with some loose errors to give Nole a 4-2 lead. When Djokovic held serve for 5-2, it looked all but over. But Federer hung in there, holding his serve comfortably for 3-5. Djokovic served for the match and seemed tight, handing Federer some unforced errors, but evened it at 30-30 before sending a shot wide, and then Federer broke when Djokovic fell and made it on serve at 4-5. Federer then had a very tough hold as he faced match point at 30-40, but then seemingly went into overdrive and hit aces as needed to hold. On his next serve, Djokovic looked shaken, and Federer was up 0-40 including a double fault. Djokovic recovered with a couple of good serves, but was ultimately broken to go a break down at 5-6, and Federer closed the set out with his 5th straight game.

4th set conclusion: A Topsy-turvy set with Djokovic having the better of the battle of breaks early to get to a 5-2 single break lead, and then Federer winning late to take 5 straight games for the set and wrested the momentum to his side.

The 5th set was delayed a bit in starting as Djokovic headed off for a toilet break, and Federer decided to follow him. Djokovic started serving in the set, and both players held comfortably to 2-1 Djokovic, when Novak took another medical timeout before Federer's serve for some discomfort in his lower leg. But Novak returned and again seemed to have recovered his condition, and Federer held serve comfortably. It stayed comfortable until Novak's service game at 3 all where the game was forced to deuce with some aggressive play from Roger and a double fault from Novak. But Novak held with excellent serving for a 4-3 lead. But then Roger had a difficult time on his service going down 15-40, before Roger brought it back to deuce. Roger finally held after 3 deuces to even the match at 4-4. In the Djokovic service game, at 15 all, Roger dumped a rare overhead smash into the net giving Nole a 30-15 lead instead of 15-30. Maybe it was significant, maybe not, we will never know. Nole afterwards held and led 5-4. After a tough previous service game and then the failed overhead in Novak's game, Federer's energy level at this point had deteriorated, while Nole looked like he had managed to get a second or third wind, following the medical timeout. Federer quickly went down 15-40 on his service with some errant shots, and the aces he had been coming up with previously were nowhere to be found, and he finally capitulated with a rather weak shot into the net in a rather anti-climatic end to the match and the Wimbledon title belonged to Novak Djokovic.

5th set conclusion: Federer ended the 4th set with the momentum, but in my opinion the toilet break and medical timeout diffused this advantage. In any event, Djokovic regrouped, the set was even until the last game and then Federer's energy level dipped right at the end and Djokovic won the very close match. There was no domination in this set either.


Match conclusion: If any period of "domination" occurred, it was in the 4th set when Federer won 5 straight games, but since he had gone down a break twice earlier, the set overall was not dominated. Otherwise it was pretty close throughout with Nole edging it out at the last.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

Kieran

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Okay, "dominant" is too loose a term: he was the stronger player in every set and he should have won the first and fourth, except he got tight.

I think Federer was blessed to take it to five. Had Novak been less tight, it could have been routine...
 

masterclass

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Kieran said:
Okay, "dominant" is too loose a term: he was the stronger player in every set and he should have won the first and fourth, except he got tight.

I think Federer was blessed to take it to five. Had Novak been less tight, it could have been routine...

Hmm, and that makes him the stronger player in the set? Ok...right. :)

I'll would say in terms of the entire set, Novak was the somewhat stronger player in sets 2, and 5. Sets 1 and 3 were virtually identical but mirror images, and set 4 Roger was somewhat stronger. Nole had 1 more somewhat stronger set and it was the 5th to win the match. :cool:

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

Kieran

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masterclass said:
Kieran said:
Okay, "dominant" is too loose a term: he was the stronger player in every set and he should have won the first and fourth, except he got tight.

I think Federer was blessed to take it to five. Had Novak been less tight, it could have been routine...

Hmm, and that makes him the stronger player in the set? Ok...right. :)

I'll would say in terms of the entire set, Novak was the somewhat stronger player in sets 2, and 5. Sets 1 and 3 were virtually identical but mirror images, and set 4 Roger was stronger.

Respectfully,
masterclass

In set 4 Roger was stronger - after Novak got tight... ;)
 

DarthFed

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You guys are also forgetting Roger got hosed on an enormous call late in the 3rd set. Some fat cow lineswoman missed an easy out that would have made it 0-30 on Nole's serve. The 3rd set was the most even of the entire match. Nole was slightly better in the 1st set that Roger pulled out. Nole had a set point on Roger's serve, so it's hardly "blessed" or getting tight not to convert that. Obviously Nole should have won the 4th, Roger was dreadful that set until his back was against the wall.

5th set was probably the easiest of the match, Roger provided zero resistance and it was smooth sailing for Nole.

And the other problem with the logic is thinking the match would go the same way had Roger lost the 1st. I don't think his level would've dipped so quickly in set 2 if he was down a set and fighting to stay in the match.

It's similar to what I told you ahead of the Shanghai match (something you of course didn't want to hear)...on a fast court Nole is up against it even now vs. Roger. Djokovic had to play out of his mind to squeak out a win that match vs. a fairly average, albeit clutch Federer. Nole has beaten Roger easily in 1 fast match his entire career, Dubai 2011. Otherwise the narrative is that Roger usually wins, often easily, whereas Nole pulls out wins at the very end by the skin of his teeth.
 

Federberg

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DarthFed said:
Novak wasn't dominant in sets 1 or 3. And Roger handed him the 5th on a silver platter.

Why bother having this conversation? :) If it's a tight set and Roger wins it, it's surely because Novak threw it away :puzzled If it's a tight set and Novak wins it, it's because Roger was never going to win it anyway. Truth be told I felt that Roger was slightly off. He didn't seem able to do the things he normally does against Novak to break his rhythm. But people who want to have a dig against the old man will take the opportunity. Anyway I wasn't that bothered as I feared for Novak's mentality if he'd lost that match. I spent more time packing for my trip to Brazil than watching that 5th set, I wasn't feeling it at all!
 

DarthFed

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^ Kieran has the weird attitude that Roger should feel good about himself when he loses 5 setters at Wimbledon. Let's not kid ourselves...Roger losing to Nole and Rafa on grass is very weak on paper. Those guys are nothing special on grass. But this past Wimbledon I thought Roger did decent for himself in many ways, it was the lack of a forehand that hurt him as he couldn't dictate from the baseline. But Roger had one of his best days serving and played really tough throughout until his Achilles heel (5th set). Djokovic basically transformed back to 2011...and it was still barely enough.
 

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DarthFed said:
^ Kieran has the weird attitude that Roger should feel good about himself when he loses 5 setters at Wimbledon. Let's not kid ourselves...Roger losing to Nole and Rafa on grass is very weak on paper. Those guys are nothing special on grass. But this past Wimbledon I thought Roger did decent for himself in many ways, it was the lack of a forehand that hurt him as he couldn't dictate from the baseline. But Roger had one of his best days serving and played really tough throughout until his Achilles heel (5th set). Djokovic basically transformed back to 2011...and it was still barely enough.

Yes his forehand inexplicably disappeared. Right from the first few games of the match I had a bad feeling. He played as poor a match as in 2009 against Roddick. He got away with it that time, to me this was payback. As for what others think... utterly irrelevant to me. I saw what I saw. An off form old man takes a youngster playing at his peak to 5 sets and now he's lost his last chance to win a slam? I'm not having it :cool:
 

Kieran

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^^ Darth has the weird attitude that Roger taking down Roddick a bunch of times on grass - and the Infant Ralph - means he's always entitled to win every match easily on the surface. Federer did very well to take this year's final to five, likewise in 2008. I give him immense credit for that.

Mirka's milk is keeping him young, which is great for tennis this year, with Rafa playing part-time and Nole dialing off after Wimbledon. For me, Federer's best Wimbledons were 2007, and 2012...
 

DarthFed

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No my attitude is that Roger is better than both those guys on grass by a good margin and therefore should normally beat them. 08 was mostly pathetic from Roger, this past year was a lot about Nole playing better than normal.

You always give Roger "immense credit" when he is weak enough to lose. Why is that again? :)

I wish Mirka was keeping him young, he still had his 2nd worst year of the past 12. If you're looking for him to sink to 2013 depths again you'll probably be waiting until he turns 40.
 

Kieran

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I give him credit for fighting back in both matches. He showed a champ's heart both times. Nothing wrong with that, feller...
 

Federberg

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DarthFed said:
No my attitude is that Roger is better than both those guys on grass by a good margin and therefore should normally beat them. 08 was mostly pathetic from Roger, this past year was a lot about Nole playing better than normal.

You always give Roger "immense credit" when he is weak enough to lose. Why is that again? :)

I wish Mirka was keeping him young, he still had his 2nd worst year of the past 12. If you're looking for him to sink to 2013 depths again you'll probably be waiting until he turns 40.

Armchair critics trying to make patronizing comments about the most successful player of all time? That tells you more about them trying to channel the success of their favorite player :cover I would just ignore stuff like that utterly... or feel embarrassed for them :D
 

Kieran

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federberg said:
DarthFed said:
No my attitude is that Roger is better than both those guys on grass by a good margin and therefore should normally beat them. 08 was mostly pathetic from Roger, this past year was a lot about Nole playing better than normal.

You always give Roger "immense credit" when he is weak enough to lose. Why is that again? :)

I wish Mirka was keeping him young, he still had his 2nd worst year of the past 12. If you're looking for him to sink to 2013 depths again you'll probably be waiting until he turns 40.

Armchair critics trying to make patronizing comments about the most successful player of all time? That tells you more about them trying to channel the success of their favorite player :cover I would just ignore stuff like that utterly... or feel embarrassed for them :D

So where do you sit when you watch tennis? Or do you slither about on your belly in front of the telly?
 

DarthFed

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Kieran said:
I give him credit for fighting back in both matches. He showed a champ's heart both times. Nothing wrong with that, feller...

So he was supposed to badly underachieve and get blown out? He did amazing to pull off the 4th but played an awful 5th set this year. Still I will agree that he fought great throughout until the 5th, the 3rd set was amazing stuff from both guys really. Roger had to be shocked he lost it with the way he served and that might have led to his big dropoff at the start of the 4th.

In 2008 he decided to show up after 2.5 sets...and then still showed a lot of weakness in the 5th, hitting errors left and right in the big moments at the end.
 

Kieran

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Your memory of the fifth set in 2008 has been shown previously to be slightly biased. ;)

I think he was showing the aftershock of a record shellacking received in Paris for the first 2 sets in Wimbledon 2008 - and Rafa could have had him out of there before the first rain delay. Roger showed immense heart to get back into it, and take it so far as 9-7 in the fifth...
 

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DarthFed said:
Kieran said:
I give him credit for fighting back in both matches. He showed a champ's heart both times. Nothing wrong with that, feller...

So he was supposed to badly underachieve and get blown out? He did amazing to pull off the 4th but played an awful 5th set this year. Still I will agree that he fought great throughout until the 5th, the 3rd set was amazing stuff from both guys really. Roger had to be shocked he lost it with the way he served and that might have led to his big dropoff at the start of the 4th.

In 2008 he decided to show up after 2.5 sets...and then still showed a lot of weakness in the 5th, hitting errors left and right in the big moments at the end.

Trust me... in 2008 it was too dark to play. At the time my house was a 5 minute walk away from the courts. I would have stopped playing on the public courts in Wimbledon Park with the light at the start of the 5th set. Clearly Rafa handled the dark better than Roger did. I recall feeling the same way as a Roddick loss in the dark against Monfils at Roland Garros one year. Couldn't believe they were still playing...
 

DarthFed

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And your memory is free of bias I suppose? :)

I should know never to debate someone who is always correct! We will always disagree on 2008, and it is especially rich to suggest anything would've been different had there been no rain delay. It was 5-5 in the 3rd so you're basically left saying Rafa would've broken serve at 5-5 right away or Roger would've played an awful tiebreak had there been no delay.

It didn't take much heart to get back in that match...his level went from non existent to normal. At no point did he really step up to a great level in that match aside from the 3rd set TB and 2nd half of the 4th set TB.