US Politics Thread

[Kieran]

Are you frigging kiddin me??!!! The US history shows it only supports sovereign nations with fair elections and cannot abide cruel tyrants who rape their country?!

Whatever your smoking Kieran it obviously works…

Did I say that? You must have been smoking too!

 

[mrzz]

This isn’t at all played out , though the opposition parties & leaders including the woman who probably won the last election , can’t see them simply acquiescing to Trump’s claim of direct running of their country. Heck aren’t Maduro supporters actually still running the country?

We are in agreement but two details here:

Maria Corina Machado did not participate in the election, she was the primary oppostion figure, but she was not allowed to particpate. Then another female candidate replaced her, who also had "legal" trouble. Then came the next one, Edmundo Gonzalez, he was barred at first but after international pressure he was allowed to participate. It is funny that his name is almost never mentioned.

Trump chosing Delcy Rodriguez as his "pick" is indeed intriguing. I do not think this is such a master play as the guy in the video posted a few messages above believes, but it has a pragmactical sense that is surprising for Trump. She was next in line anyway, and anything else would mean civil war.

 

[Kieran]

I'll post this video as a good place to start for something I've been ruminating on for a while, but haven't yet had time to deep dive into, which may take me some time, because lately i seem to have little time to catch up.

The catastrophically fractured right in America. The courting of the worst, most detestable ideas and people by the likes of Candace Owens and Tucker Carlsen. The anti-semitism, conspiracy theories, Nick Fuentes. I don't always agree with Sam Harris, but on this I do. I'd like to read something by Douglas Murray on this, but I think he'd agree with Harris. it's often at the moment of great victory the most insane people come to the fore and show their colours.
It's about 12 minutes long. 6 minutes at double speed with subtitles.

 

[Moxie]

can you post it?

Actually, you did...it played right after the other one, but I'll try to make it play again and repost it separately.

 

[Moxie]

can you post it?

It's worth hearing from people on the ground. it wasn't a completely precision operation. It was impactful to the people there.

 

[Moxie]

You know they still debate the legality of Obama’s strikes in Libya, and I’m sure you complained about them too. But Madura is definitely not a sovereign leader of a country that voted him out. He’s a cruel tyrant who didn’t care a bit about that great country he was busy raping. And the country that you’re clutching your pearls for is celebrating the end of this animals reign.

It was daring and well planned and successful operation. Meanwhile, the “No Kings” twits are out in force protesting in favour of a tyrant. Natch. You couldn’t make this stuff up. If the American left were fiction, people would say that book is too far fetched…

You miss the point. As Federberg points out, neither of us will miss Maduro, who is an illegitimate leader, a tyrant and a criminal. I don't know why you always have to make a what-aboutism with Obama, but Obama went into Libya per a UN resolution, and with other NATO allies. When Congress asked him why he was extending the stay, he made his case, and they approved it. He was working with the UN, NATO, and Congress. Trump is acting alone. You may not care about the rule of law in my country, but I do.

 

[Kieran]

You miss the point. As Federberg points out, neither of us will miss Maduro, who is an illegitimate leader, a tyrant and a criminal. I don't know why you always have to make a what-aboutism with Obama, but Obama went into Libya per a UN resolution, and with other NATO allies. When Congress asked him why he was extending the stay, he made his case, and they approved it. He was working with the UN, NATO, and Congress. Trump is acting alone. You may not care about the rule of law in my country, but I do.

I don’t think you do. I think that’s transactional. The left care about law and order only when it comes to the right. And I would say that’s often the same in reverse. During the mostly peaceful riots, for example, the left didn’t care about law and order. They celebrated destruction and violence because it suited them politically.

This unfortunately is the default setting for tribal politics. It’s not exclusive in the west to your country, it only achieves greater heights of craziness there…

 

[Federberg]

this is what we're all worried about

https://apple.news/AOoXZdQKqQoKBuurM8mFuCA

 

[Kieran]

I wonder if Trump will collect the reward

 

[Kieran]

this is what we're all worried about

https://apple.news/AOoXZdQKqQoKBuurM8mFuCA

Absolutely. The next moves are shrouded in mystery. Will Trump do some horse trading? Hopefully not. He should stand up to Putin, and stand his ground on Maduro by working to get Venezuelans to eventually take control of their country. If America had stood up to Putin years ago, his name wouldn’t be getting mentioned in relation to this..

 

[Federberg]

I wonder if Trump will collect the reward

this is a complicated situation. Two things can be true. The bounty placed on Maduro by the Biden Administration does not legitimise going into another country and snatching a leader. I'm glad the guy is no longer in power, but let's be real here, from what I'm hearing about the regime, this doesn't really change the incumbent power of the Chavistas. We can only hope that it's the starting point and the Venezuelan people can take up the baton from here. If they need any inspiration they can look over at Iran..

 

[Kieran]

this is a complicated situation. Two things can be true. The bounty placed on Maduro by the Biden Administration does not legitimise going into another country and snatching a leader. I'm glad the guy is no longer in power, but let's be real here, from what I'm hearing about the regime, this doesn't really change the incumbent power of the Chavistas. We can only hope that it's the starting point and the Venezuelan people can take up the baton from here. If they need any inspiration they can look over at Iran..

Well, we have to always remember that Maduro isn’t a legitimately elected ruler of Venezuela, so Biden's intention in offering $25m for information leading to his arrest and conviction, presumably by the same nation who offered the bounty, and that same country scooping him up, are two points along the same spectrum - or similar.

Perhaps somebody close to Maduro will claim the bounty?

 

[Moxie]

I don’t think you do. I think that’s transactional. The left care about law and order only when it comes to the right. And I would say that’s often the same in reverse. During the mostly peaceful riots, for example, the left didn’t care about law and order. They celebrated destruction and violence because it suited them politically.

This unfortunately is the default setting for tribal politics. It’s not exclusive in the west to your country, it only achieves greater heights of craziness there…

*Sigh* It is so boring when you retreat to a banal and broad insult of the left, and of me. And, you've got a lot of nerve, here, because you're the one that doesn't care about US laws or international laws when it comes to grabbing a person in a sovereign state. You just liked the show of force. It's okay to also say that the way it was probably illegal, and maybe not so well-thought out.

 

[Kieran]

*Sigh* It is so boring when you retreat to a banal and broad insult of the left, and of me. And, you've got a lot of nerve, here, because you're the one that doesn't care about US laws or international laws when it comes to grabbing a person in a sovereign state. You just liked the show of force. It's okay to also say that the way it was probably illegal, and maybe not so well-thought out.

It wouldn’t kill you to say it was daring and brilliantly planned and achieved - and possibly legal and good for the suffering people in Venezuela. They’re being strangled to death by these murderous left wing tyrants, and Maduro deserves no sympathy, being a man who lost an election but grabbed power illegally.

I don’t think much of either the left or the right, actually. I think both these words have killed collaborative politics - “left” and “right”. I wish people would base their thinking solely on each issue based on its merits, and not simply repeating each “wings” tribal talking points. Old school liberals and conservatives understood that a car needs both brakes and an accelerator, and they were more open to reasonable discussion on when each should be applied. That’s a long time gone now, and political madness and bad manners reign in the west, which is going to lead to its self inflicted destruction, unfortunately.

I mean nothing personal to you, of course, you know me well outside here - I’m just trying to hammer back at types of political talk I disagree with - but that doesn’t mean I think less of anyone here. I’m no oracle of wisdom either, I just try tease things out deliberately and see where it leads..

 

[Moxie]

It wouldn’t kill you to say it was daring and brilliantly planned and achieved - and possibly legal and good for the suffering people in Venezuela. They’re being strangled to death by these murderous left wing tyrants, and Maduro deserves no sympathy, being a man who lost an election but grabbed power illegally.

It wouldn't kill you to engage with the fact that it was probably illegal, and impolitic, as a choice. We both agree that no one is sorry to be shed of Maduro. But there are ways to do things.

I don’t think much of either the left or the right, actually. I think both these words have killed collaborative politics - “left” and “right”. I wish people would base their thinking solely on each issue based on its merits, and not simply repeating each “wings” tribal talking points. Old school liberals and conservatives understood that a car needs both brakes and an accelerator, and they were more open to reasonable discussion on when each should be applied. That’s a long time gone now, and political madness and bad manners reign in the west, which is going to lead to its self inflicted destruction, unfortunately.

If that's true then stop making it all about right and left, all the time.

I mean nothing personal to you, of course, you know me well outside here - I’m just trying to hammer back at types of political talk I disagree with - but that doesn’t mean I think less of anyone here. I’m no oracle of wisdom either, I just try tease things out deliberately and see where it leads..

So stop telling me what I think, then. I'd appreciate that, for one thing. Stop grouping me with a mob you dislike. I'm trying to have a more nuanced conversation than that. I'd appreciate it if you'd do likewise.

 

[Kieran]

It wouldn't kill you to engage with the fact that it was probably illegal, and impolitic, as a choice. We both agree that no one is sorry to be shed of Maduro. But there are ways to do things.

And Trump did it. We all should be glad for that, at least.

If that's true then stop making it all about right and left, all the time.

It’s about left and right, I can’t do anything about that. And the left are dominating the culture wars with the worst ideas. They’re normalising mental illness, abusing children, trying to change the language to create new barriers, they don’t believe in truth, they’re explicit racists, sexist, etc.

You never criticise the constant “protests”, the violence, the anti-American strain to virtually everything these “activists” do.

So stop telling me what I think, then. I'd appreciate that, for one thing. Stop grouping me with a mob you dislike. I'm trying to have a more nuanced conversation than that. I'd appreciate it if you'd do likewise.

I’m not grouping you in with these people, you are, unfortunately..

 

[Federberg]

had to laugh!

 

[Federberg]

not a fan of the poster, I think he's a schill for Beijing, but there's some truth to this...

 

[Federberg]

 

[Federberg]

View attachment 10381

considering Mandelson's political history on the left, this is a particularly interesting Op-Ed piece...