US Politics Thread

[Moxie]

It is possible that she did not see officer B, yes. But he was in the front of the car all along, even before she went backwards (a bit more to the right of her, but surely still in her sight). In one video is very clear that he is hit reasonably hard and that he fires his gun after he is hit. If it is possible that she did not see him, it is also possible that he fired his gun as the natural reflex of being hit by a car (which is a way more reasonable suposition, by the way), which would make it all a very sad coincidence.

Again, I'm going to ask you if you watched the video I posted, because what you say above is not consistent with it. If it doesn't play for you, I can send it to you privately as a gift and you can watch it. Officer B was NOT in front of the vehicle all along. He came around from the back left, filming, then disappears from view. He next appears in front, but moving to the left front of the vehicle. It's impossible to know how long he was actually in front of the vehicle, but not when it was moving forward. By then, he was more off to the side, and she was turning to the right, away from him. I also don't believe you can reasonably see that he fires only after he is hit. It seems awfully close in the synched videos. But even if he did shoot after the vehicle hit him, his feet were far away from the vehicle, and it would likely only have been a glancing blow. And let's say he fired accidentally as a result of the blow. That did not require him to fire twice more. If he shot her accidentally, he would likely have rushed more actively to administer aide.

Not sure how unharmed he was, we can see him walkin straight, but he did take a blow strong enough push him back quite hard.

He clearly is walking fine. The blow does look harder from a higher angle, shot from farther away, and pretty grainy, but not in the closer footage.

But, again, there is zero doubt that she did drove over the officer, and there is zero doubt that she hit him.

She didn't "drive over" the officer. This is what Kristi Noem says. Perhaps this is a gap in your generally flawless English, but to "drive over" someone requires them to be under the wheels of the car, and Officer B was not. Not even his foot. This is not a gap in Kristi Noem's English. For, however much she is a sycophant and an idiot, she knows exactly what she said, and that it's a lie.

This is speculation. Again, he fired after being hit. It was monster bad luck that he hit her in the head. From all the multiple videos of police approaches in the US, it seems that once officers draw their weapons, it is pretty common that they aim them at the people involved. Sounds harsh, yes, but again, if that is a problem, change the procedure, don't blame the people following it.

It may have been instinctual, or accidental, that he shot her, but you can also consider there was no reason for him to have his gun drawn.

It has been said that ICE has no training in crowd control, which regular cops do, and they shouldn't be performing this duty. It is clear that their presence in many cities has escalated anxieties and the entire situation, and they are not rising well to the occasion. Many have also said that they are not well-trained, though by what I've raid, this particular officer, B, was experienced, and rather long on the job. But it is the job of law enforcement to de-escalate, not escalate situations, and ICE seems to have no competence or training in that area.

Why is she with the car in the middle of the road in that position? There is no other street that she could have come from. There could be a lot of different explanations, but the most obvious one is that she deliberately trying to block their passage. People were already filming what was going on. The person filming the most popular video is screaming like crazy before the shooting. Sorry, this people know what they are doing. They are fighting a guerrilla war against ICE. Whoever asked them to join this war probably made a very good case, and most likely forgot to mention that war has casualties.

She could have been trying to block the agents, but she was obviously not blocking them completely, as any could have gone around. She could also have been making a U-turn to get out of there. We have to wait for information. Of course people were already filming. They were already there. You can hear the whistles. This was already an on-going ICE raid. She could have stumbled into it, and tried to back up and go the way she came, waiting for traffic before going back the way she came. Or she could have been attempting to block them, but they weren't fully blocked, as you can see. I think you overstate this, in any case, to call it a guerrilla war. Most are bringing a whistle to a gunfight, if that's the case.

Edit: New video emerged and confirmed she could see the agent.

If that's the case, then post it, please.

 

[Moxie]

Ah, OK, I see where you were going with your last sentence, now. I thought you were still talking about civilians and ICE activities. I still think that your point is a little naive. "Do what you want to now, but know that the law will come for you eventually." I'm not sure we have confidence that that is true, these days. Trump is running roughshod over rules and norms, and rolling over Congress. With the Supreme Court supporting him. And I hope, but I'm not sure we can rely on making a statement with our vote next November. Trump is making a lot of noise that he knows he won't do well in that election. So, what if there isn't one? I hate to say that's possible, but look at the chaos he has sown in the not-quite 12 months he's been in office?

 

[britbox]

It looks more like you're being put on a war footing than anything else. The Venezuelan narco thing is a side narrative. It's more likely oil for the war machine that's required. That would also explain the massive proposed hike in defence funding for the Pentagon and all the horse trading about Greenland. Many of the European leaders are talking about conscription. Nobody in the west is interested in peace - they need a reset. The economic cycle has run it's course, and a new world needs to be birthed.

 

[mrzz]

Again, I'm going to ask you if you watched the video I posted, because what you say above is not consistent with it. If it doesn't play for you, I can send it to you privately as a gift and you can watch it. Officer B was NOT in front of the vehicle all along. He came around from the back left, filming, then disappears from view. He next appears in front, but moving to the left front of the vehicle. It's impossible to know how long he was actually in front of the vehicle, but not when it was moving forward. By then, he was more off to the side, and she was turning to the right, away from him. I also don't believe you can reasonably see that he fires only after he is hit. It seems awfully close in the synched videos. But even if he did shoot after the vehicle hit him, his feet were far away from the vehicle, and it would likely only have been a glancing blow. And let's say he fired accidentally as a result of the blow. That did not require him to fire twice more. If he shot her accidentally, he would likely have rushed more actively to administer aide.

I watched the video you posted. I had already seen everything it is shown there.

In order to be on the left side of the vehicle, he had to pass in front of it, as he came from the right (as you said). He was extremely close. It is not reasonable to expect that it was possible to avoid him by turning the steering wheel.

I watched one video in slow motion (vantage point is on the left side of the vehicle), the flashes of the gun are after his body moves backward. But you make a fair point, the other shots were intentional. But, again, a car had just ran towards and hit him (yes, not run over, for sure).

It may have been instinctual, or accidental, that he shot her, but you can also consider there was no reason for him to have his gun drawn.

It has been said that ICE has no training in crowd control, which regular cops do, and they shouldn't be performing this duty. It is clear that their presence in many cities has escalated anxieties and the entire situation, and they are not rising well to the occasion. Many have also said that they are not well-trained, though by what I've raid, this particular officer, B, was experienced, and rather long on the job. But it is the job of law enforcement to de-escalate, not escalate situations, and ICE seems to have no competence or training in that area.

If it was up to me, he would not be there with his gun drawn. We are in agreement here. But there is a context to it. They were not strolling around. We don't know for who were the warrants for. It could well be for violent criminals, and then own your way you find a car blocking the road. Yes, you can drive around it, at the risk of the car easily hitting yours. They had to stop and move the car out of the way. Point is that it is easy to make the point that now, in hindsight, the better decision would be not to draw their weapons.

De-escalate is the magic word. Nobody is trying to de-escalate. The ICE officers on the ground could handle a lot of situations way better (but, there are probably thousands and thousands of interactions each day, we only get to see precisely the ones that go wrong). And, given that they are constrained by the job they are supposed to do, it is more difficult for them to de-escalate. Higher up the command chain, yes, they could be doing a better job. But the people screaming, offending, shoving cameras on their faces, throwing sticks and stones, putting themselves in front of their cars, those people are not de-escalating, they are doing the exact opposite of it.

If that's the case, then post it, please.

It is on the front page of most news outlets, CNN included. You probably have seen it by now.

 

[Moxie]

I watched the video you posted. I had already seen everything it is shown there.

In order to be on the left side of the vehicle, he had to pass in front of it, as he came from the right (as you said). He was extremely close. It is not reasonable to expect that it was possible to avoid him by turning the steering wheel.

I watched one video in slow motion (vantage point is on the left side of the vehicle), the flashes of the gun are after his body moves backward. But you make a fair point, the other shots were intentional. But, again, a car had just ran towards and hit him (yes, not run over, for sure).



If it was up to me, he would not be there with his gun drawn. We are in agreement here. But there is a context to it. They were not strolling around. We don't know for who were the warrants for. It could well be for violent criminals, and then own your way you find a car blocking the road. Yes, you can drive around it, at the risk of the car easily hitting yours. They had to stop and move the car out of the way. Point is that it is easy to make the point that now, in hindsight, the better decision would be not to draw their weapons.

De-escalate is the magic word. Nobody is trying to de-escalate. The ICE officers on the ground could handle a lot of situations way better (but, there are probably thousands and thousands of interactions each day, we only get to see precisely the ones that go wrong). And, given that they are constrained by the job they are supposed to do, it is more difficult for them to de-escalate. Higher up the command chain, yes, they could be doing a better job. But the people screaming, offending, shoving cameras on their faces, throwing sticks and stones, putting themselves in front of their cars, those people are not de-escalating, they are doing the exact opposite of it.


It is on the front page of most news outlets, CNN included. You probably have seen it by now.

No I haven't seen the latest, because I'm busy responding to you...LOL!

I won't keep going around with you. You concede some points, as I do. I tend to lean that the woman was doing nothing nefarious, and the ICE cops used excessive force. You tend to lean that they are in extremis with these protestors, and it's understandable that these things happen. Or some version of that summary. We'll never get closer to agreement than this. Or, at least until more facts come out, and I doubt they will.

It does bother me that you take the death of a citizen as a consequence of all of this. I think that should not be so. I find these ICE agents to be too quick to throw their authority and force around. They're Customs and Immigration. They shouldn't be shooting so many people.

 

[Moxie]

For the record, the Department of Homeland Security does have policies about use of force:

https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mgmt/law-enforcement/mgmt-dir_044-05-department-policy-on-the-use-of-force.pdf

 

[Fiero425]

No I haven't seen the latest, because I'm busy responding to you...LOL!

I won't keep going around with you. You concede some points, as I do. I tend to lean that the woman was doing nothing nefarious, and the ICE cops used excessive force. You tend to lean that they are in extremis with these protestors, and it's understandable that these things happen. Or some version of that summary. We'll never get closer to agreement than this. Or, at least until more facts come out, and I doubt they will.

It does bother me that you take the death of a citizen as a consequence of all of this. I think that should not be so. I find these ICE agents to be too quick to throw their authority and force around. They're Customs and Immigration. They shouldn't be shooting so many people.

Again, this is another one of those situations where "they're only following orders!" You need to blame Trump, all the people who support his dictatorship, & the courts for not coming down harder on this admin. when they're obviously flaunting law & order! I'm only getting drips & drabs of this $#!t going on! Hard to believe it's getting worse w/ exposure! There's a large swath of people who must see this as something that's necessary or these jack-booted thugs would have been reined in by now! Assaulting citizens in the streets of their city is supposed to be the last thing like this to be going on! Our own local authority is not supposed to allow this amount of criminality to go unopposed! The Law has been turned on its head! I can't handle this! I just need to ignore the insanity or I'll end up in an ICU unit!

 

[Kieran]

Here’s Some Random Guy addressing the cops bodycam. Some things are very clear here: she hit him with the car after disobeying an order to get out of the car, and that herself and the other woman were taunting the officers.

We can see the position of the officer who fired the shots, and if she hadn’t been so busy showing off, and if she got out of the car as she was ordered to, she’d be still alive.

And the poor ICE agent wouldn’t be going through what he’s going through.

I see even sister @Moxie accepts she hit with her car, others have been denying and disputing this, but somehow this is downgraded immediately to a minor offence. It’s actually the reason why she is dead. That, and the fact she’s there in the first place, gloating at and taunting law enforcement officers doing their jobs.

Why is she doing this? What qualifies her to be making judgments and nasty remarks about law enforcement officers? I can only think it’s because the left have been waging a propaganda war against the police for years now, and they’ve been setting themselves up as the upholders of justice - they in fact are justice, in their own rebellious, deluded minds - and the police are bigoted, racist, fascist, etc. They demonise the police and law enforcement so much that they think delusionally that their disobedience and obstruction is actually the proper response to law enforcement.

As I said, the whole thing is tragedy, but it’s brought to us by far left entitlement, and disregard for law.

 

[Kieran]

“What is wrong with these people “, indeed. This is mental illness - and a total ignorance of the law: still, with the warrants.

 

[Federberg]

“What is wrong with these people “, indeed. This is mental illness - and a total ignorance of the law: still, with the warrants.

 

[Kieran]

Mainly peaceful riots and looting taking place in Minneapolis, and other places, in protest against what, again? This is a toxic, violent mentality, intolerant and dangerous.

I could never make the association between “a just cause” and “destroying peoples property”, but somehow the demented left make it, every single time…

 

[Moxie]

Here’s Some Random Guy addressing the cops bodycam. Some things are very clear here: she hit him with the car after disobeying an order to get out of the car, and that herself and the other woman were taunting the officers.

We can see the position of the officer who fired the shots, and if she hadn’t been so busy showing off, and if she got out of the car as she was ordered to, she’d be still alive.

And the poor ICE agent wouldn’t be going through what he’s going through.

I see even sister @Moxie accepts she hit with her car, others have been denying and disputing this, but somehow this is downgraded immediately to a minor offence. It’s actually the reason why she is dead. That, and the fact she’s there in the first place, gloating at and taunting law enforcement officers doing their jobs.

Why is she doing this? What qualifies her to be making judgments and nasty remarks about law enforcement officers? I can only think it’s because the left have been waging a propaganda war against the police for years now, and they’ve been setting themselves up as the upholders of justice - they in fact are justice, in their own rebellious, deluded minds - and the police are bigoted, racist, fascist, etc. They demonise the police and law enforcement so much that they think delusionally that their disobedience and obstruction is actually the proper response to law enforcement.

As I said, the whole thing is tragedy, but it’s brought to us by far left entitlement, and disregard for law.

I do think that guy is random, and overly convinced by his own opinion, with very little evidence. As are you. (See above.) The guy's sure that all the clattering he hears is the ICE agent being hit, and gun fire, maybe the guy being hit at the same time he fired. Well, yes, possible. But what is also very possible is that the car hitting him made him drop his cell phone, and, as the microphone is on the phone, the phone picked up a lot of noise when it hit the ground. I say this only because it's also a possibility. Look, we're all just "random guys" offering opinions, here. His is no more valid or well-thought out than ours.

I will say a couple of things here: I do think the woman was attempting to get away from the officers, and no more than glanced off that officer. He clearly wasn't hurt, so I don't think he was in fear of his life. His gun was already drawn. This is not de-escalating a situation.

Also, though, seeing this video, which I saw last night, those women were taunting those officers, which was ill-advised, and also childish. They were impeding the officers. At the same time, I do think these ICE officers are kind of cowboys. They have no training to interact with crowds. If it were my show, I would suggest that ICE work with local PD, make them aware of their movements when they plan to make an arrest of an illegal person, and have the local police come for crowd control. Police are trained for that. Here's an example of what police do: the other night in Greenwich Village, there was a report of a person in a BMW causing some unknown trouble. The police arrived, and ordered the person out of the car. The man came out brandishing a gun. (Which turned out to be a fake gun.) The cops ordered him 3 times to drop the weapon, and he did not, and only then did they shoot him. Now, THAT is a situation when cops are definitely in fear for their lives. And yet, they gave ample opportunity for the man to drop the weapon. (IMO opinion, it was a "suicide by cop," but that hasn't been mentioned yet, in the press.) I hope you see the comparison.

 

[Kieran]

I will say a couple of things here: I do think the woman was attempting to get away from the officers, and no more than glanced off that officer. He clearly wasn't hurt, so I don't think he was in fear of his life. His gun was already drawn. This is not de-escalating a situation.

Also, though, seeing this video, which I saw last night, those women were taunting those officers, which was ill-advised, and also childish. They were impeding the officers.

Your excelled yourself. You accept above that the woman committed 4 crimes - (1) impeding law enforcement officers in their duty, (2) refusing to get out of the car when ordered to, (3) attempting to escape from the scene of the crimes, and (4) hitting a law enforcement officer by reckless driving - and yet somehow still, you decide it’s the officer who’s at fault.

A man who is working to keep you safe, you downplay her role in all of it, reducing the seriousness of her driving straight at him to the level of being basically harmless? You don’t think he was in fear of his life. Based on what, do you don’t think that? How did you reach that conclusion?

And below all this you say they’re all “kind of cowboys.” Really?

Do you not think that this silly woman would still be alive if she hadn’t driven 5 hours to impede and insult and then violently drive her car towards this man who was trying to do his job?

Seriously! You can’t keep excusing the left and its violent sense of entitlement, and be taken seriously. This stupid woman had children. They deserve sympathy, the officer deserves sympathy, and maybe somewhere further down the chain she deserves sympathy too, for doing something so recklessly stupid that it cost her the ultimate price.

The ICE agents are doing the same exact job they did for The Deporter in Chief. Did you think they needed PR skills back then? If not, why not?

Or is there a change in the American political landscape, as in, your side have turned violently on anyone who doesn’t agree with them? Obama’s ICE didn’t face that, because ICE isn’t the issue. And he was a democrat president. The issue is that you have professional agitators constantly at the ready to cause trouble and destabilise your country - they will invent the “cause” in order to do this...

 

[Moxie]

Your excelled yourself. You accept above that the woman committed 4 crimes - (1) impeding law enforcement officers in their duty, (2) refusing to get out of the car when ordered to, (3) attempting to escape from the scene of the crimes, and (4) hitting a law enforcement officer by reckless driving - and yet somehow still, you decide it’s the officer who’s at fault.

A man who is working to keep you safe, you downplay her role in all of it, reducing the seriousness of her driving straight at him to the level of being basically harmless? You don’t think he was in fear of his life. Based on what, do you don’t think that? How did you reach that conclusion?

And below all this you say they’re all “kind of cowboys.” Really?

Do you not think that this silly woman would still be alive if she hadn’t driven 5 hours to impede and insult and then violently drive her car towards this man who was trying to do his job?

Seriously! You can’t keep excusing the left and its violent sense of entitlement, and be taken seriously. This stupid woman had children. They deserve sympathy, the officer deserves sympathy, and maybe somewhere further down the chain she deserves sympathy too, for doing something so recklessly stupid that it cost her the ultimate price.

The ICE agents are doing the same exact job they did for The Deporter in Chief. Did you think they needed PR skills back then? If not, why not?

Or is there a change in the American political landscape, as in, your side have turned violently on anyone who doesn’t agree with them? Obama’s ICE didn’t face that, because ICE isn’t the issue. And he was a democrat president. The issue is that you have professional agitators constantly at the ready to cause trouble and destabilise your country - they will invent the “cause” in order to do this...

She didn't drive straight at him. I think we've established that. Wheels turned away from him. Try to focus, and not just rant. At least I'm trying to be factual.

 

[mrzz]

She didn't drive straight at him. I think we've established that. Wheels turned away from him. Try to focus, and not just rant. At least I'm trying to be factual.

I did not want to go back to this issue, but there are three problems with this argument:

1) Given how close the officers was, is obviously pointless to turn the steering wheel;
2) She would need to turn the steering wheel anyway in order to align the car to the street direction, so you cannot affirm that she was trying to avoid the officer;
3) She first moved the vehicle forward and then turned the wheels.

Do I think she wanted to kill the officer? No. Do I think that she wanted to hit or injury him? Maybe. Do I think she did not give a damn about injuring any of the officers around her: Definitely.

What do I think that actually happened?

Officers simply had it after hours of "protest" by that little group, and became increasingly hostile, possibly in the (vain) hope that, with guns drawn, they could scare them off. Shot woman panicks when the other officer tries to open her door, then officer shoots after being hit.

Did the officer wanted to hit the driver? That's anybody's guess. What I can say for certainty is that is hard to hit a target after being hit by a car. There is an undeniable degree of randomness in that. My guess is that he simply wanted to fire his weapon.

I tend to think that the officers should not have their guns drawn, but again I do not know the context and neither their protocol. For sure law enforcement cannot let their guards down because someone looks harmless or says "it's ok".

If there were sensible, responsible people running the show (on both sides), in the next days there would be less people bringing whistles to a gunfight (stole your phrase, @Moxie), specially gunfights that they provoked, and a serious safety/deescalation new policy at least discussed on ICE. Neither will happen. Stay tuned for more....

 

[Fiero425]

She didn't drive straight at him. I think we've established that. Wheels turned away from him. Try to focus, and not just rant. At least I'm trying to be factual.

A bud is arguing the woman brought it on herself driving "at the agent!" I can't even watch! I'm sure both sides are complicit at this point! ICE shouldn't be allowed to terrorize a city regardless of their motives or who's giving them their directives!

 

[Moxie]

I did not want to go back to this issue, but there are three problems with this argument:

1) Giving how close the officers was, is obviously pointless to turn the steering wheel;
2) She would need to turn the steering wheel anyway in order to align the car to the street direction, so you cannot affirm that she was trying to avoid the officer;
3) She first moved the vehicle forward and then turned the wheels.

Do I think she wanted to kill the officer? No. Do I think that she wanted to hit or injury him? Maybe. Do I think she did not give a damn about injuring any of the officers around her: Definitely.

What do I think that actually happened?

Officers simply had it after hours of "protest" by that little group, and became increasingly hostile, possibly in the (vain) hope that, with guns drawn, they could scare them off. Shot woman panicks when the other officer tries to open her door, then officer shoots after being hit.

Did the officer wanted to hit the driver? That's anybody's guess. What I can say for certainty is that is hard to hit a target after being hit by a car. There is an undeniable degree of randomness in that. My guess is that he simply wanted to fire his weapon.

I tend to think that the officers should not have their guns drawn, but again I do not know the context and neither their protocol. For sure law enforcement cannot let their guards down because someone looks harmless or says "it's ok".

If there were sensible, responsible people running the show (on both sides), in the next days there would be less people bringing whistles to a gunfight (stole your phrase, @Moxie), specially gunfights that they provoked, and a serious safety/deescalation new policy at least discussed on ICE. Neither will happen. Stay tuned for more....

I did post the existing policy above.

Try watching this one, with commentary from a Homeland Security official. He points out how they didn't follow policy, how behavior was escalating. Interestingly, he also points out that the officer who shot Good, the one who was hit, should never have stood in front of a vehicle that was running.

Retired ICE agent reviews deadly Minneapolis shooting video frame-by-frame, questions tactics used

CBS News watched bystander video of the deadly ICE shooting in Minneapolis frame-by-frame with retired ICE agent Eric Balliet to discuss the tactics used. He raised a few key points that dispute the DHS narrative of what happened.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Moxie]

This is from a writer on Substack, which @britbox and @Federberg have said they prefer as news sources to MSM. I don't know where this guy got this interview, but it's interesting, if true. I find no "Kramer Hammy" by googling him. Only posts of this statement on FB and Insta. To me, it sounds like a made up name. LOL.

Tom Hoefling1d
Tom Hoefling

Former law enforcement officer, Kramer Hammy:
"It is clear that US citizens' ignorance of federal laws and law enforcement duties, procedures, and limits of authority is getting to the point where it is deadly. I spent probably 3 hours watching and re-watching, and finding every single video and angle I could of the situation in Minnesota yesterday and came to one immovable conclusion based off of what I saw and what I know from a professional standpoint. This is long, but please give it a read.
"As a former officer, let me make something clear: ICE agents ARE NOT police officers, deputy sheriffs, or troopers. They are not local/state law enforcement. They are not federal criminal law enforcement. They have an INCREDIBLY limited scope of authority, and that scope of authority exists in detaining and arresting with probable cause and/or SIGNED WARRANTS those investigated and suspected of being in the US illegally.
"They cannot just pull anyone over for a traffic violation or because their car is in a place they don't want it. They have NO authority to pull people over for ANYTHING other than immigration enforcement- and even then that involves probable cause, such as a known vehicle of someone they have been tracking, or a warrant. On very rare occasions they have the legal authority to pull someone over if they are threatening the lives of others, but that was not happening in this case. They do not have the training nor the authority to pull ANYONE else over. They cannot arrest legal citizens. They cannot detain legal citizens without probable cause to believe they might not be legal. They have ZERO authority to be attempting to force entry into a vehicle- without even identifying themselves, without a warrant, without exigent circumstances such as a life being directly threatened- that is trying to drive down the street without probable cause in relation to IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT.
"This ENTIRE situation in Minnesota was outside of the scope of legal authority from the get go. None of it was done within the scope of authority of ICE. Every single behavior those agents made was procedurally incorrect, done without proper authority, and was based off of intimidation and the assumption that people do not understand the law and their rights in regards to interactions with ICE.
"On no planet should an officer, agent, or any human being ever step in front of a car in 'drive' that is actively trying to leave and use their body as a shield to prevent a person from LEGALLY LEAVING a situation in which they are not legally being detained. It takes maybe a week of any kind of actual law enforcement training to understand that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES do you ever place yourself in front of a vehicle in 'drive.' That agent had every single opportunity to simply take two steps to the right and not be standing directly in front of a vehicle attempting to conduct their legal right to drive away.
"You can see the wheels are turned, [Renee] backed up and turned them to the right, moved forward a bit to leave, couldn't because an agent was standing in front of her, and continued to try to leave by TURNING HER WHEELS TO THE RIGHT and moving forward. He continually chose to stand there and not allow her to legally leave as she had every single right to do.
The officer pulling on her door and banging on her window and swearing at her had ZERO authority to order her out of her vehicle or attempt to make entry into her vehicle. NONE. A single day of actual training of the legal scope of authority and the LAW would've prevented that from happening.
"You now have a frightened citizen being blockaded by immigration agents (with another person in her vehicle) who had zero obligation to follow legally invalid orders from that agent, being blocked in and having a fully grown, masked man attempting to make entry into her car. If this were reversed, every single person would immediately feel she had every reasonable expectation to fear for her safety. It doesn't matter if she knew it was ICE because the agents weren't even acting in their scope of authority anyway.
"Whether or not she made the right decision by very CLEARLY- based off of how hard her wheels were turned and how low and to the driver corner windshield that shot was fired- trying to drive to the left of that agent is IRRELEVANT in the picture as a whole.
None of this would have happened if those agents had done even one single thing correctly. Not just correctly, but within their legal scope of authority. Every single moment of that interaction was escalated by untrained, unprofessional, procedurally inept "agents" who not only had zero control of themselves but everything around them. And not because they are helpless, but because their actions that did not fall under their scope of power CAUSED this. Their tempers, lack of training, and the knowledge that they can get away with violating their own scope of authority caused this.
"I will always be the first to defend law enforcement when lethal force very clearly is required. But this was not even remotely the case, and as an actual TRAINED professional in that field with experience and understanding of both the law and procedures, there is no justification for this- and it would benefit EVERYONE to actually read up on the laws, scope of authority, and use a single shred of common sense to see that this situation was started, escalated, and caused by the ICE agents involved. I have zero respect for those in power who are ignorant of the scope of their authority and abuse it at the cost of lives around them."

 

[Fiero425]

This is from a writer on Substack, which @britbox and @Federberg have said they prefer as news sources to MSM. I don't know where this guy got this interview, but it's interesting, if true. I find no "Kramer Hammy" by googling him. Only posts of this statement on FB and Insta. To me, it sounds like a made up name. LOL.

Tom Hoefling1d
Tom Hoefling

Former law enforcement officer, Kramer Hammy:
"It is clear that US citizens' ignorance of federal laws and law enforcement duties, procedures, and limits of authority is getting to the point where it is deadly. I spent probably 3 hours watching and re-watching, and finding every single video and angle I could of the situation in Minnesota yesterday and came to one immovable conclusion based off of what I saw and what I know from a professional standpoint. This is long, but please give it a read.
"As a former officer, let me make something clear: ICE agents ARE NOT police officers, deputy sheriffs, or troopers. They are not local/state law enforcement. They are not federal criminal law enforcement. They have an INCREDIBLY limited scope of authority, and that scope of authority exists in detaining and arresting with probable cause and/or SIGNED WARRANTS those investigated and suspected of being in the US illegally.
"They cannot just pull anyone over for a traffic violation or because their car is in a place they don't want it. They have NO authority to pull people over for ANYTHING other than immigration enforcement- and even then that involves probable cause, such as a known vehicle of someone they have been tracking, or a warrant. On very rare occasions they have the legal authority to pull someone over if they are threatening the lives of others, but that was not happening in this case. They do not have the training nor the authority to pull ANYONE else over. They cannot arrest legal citizens. They cannot detain legal citizens without probable cause to believe they might not be legal. They have ZERO authority to be attempting to force entry into a vehicle- without even identifying themselves, without a warrant, without exigent circumstances such as a life being directly threatened- that is trying to drive down the street without probable cause in relation to IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT.
"This ENTIRE situation in Minnesota was outside of the scope of legal authority from the get go. None of it was done within the scope of authority of ICE. Every single behavior those agents made was procedurally incorrect, done without proper authority, and was based off of intimidation and the assumption that people do not understand the law and their rights in regards to interactions with ICE.
"On no planet should an officer, agent, or any human being ever step in front of a car in 'drive' that is actively trying to leave and use their body as a shield to prevent a person from LEGALLY LEAVING a situation in which they are not legally being detained. It takes maybe a week of any kind of actual law enforcement training to understand that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES do you ever place yourself in front of a vehicle in 'drive.' That agent had every single opportunity to simply take two steps to the right and not be standing directly in front of a vehicle attempting to conduct their legal right to drive away.
"You can see the wheels are turned, [Renee] backed up and turned them to the right, moved forward a bit to leave, couldn't because an agent was standing in front of her, and continued to try to leave by TURNING HER WHEELS TO THE RIGHT and moving forward. He continually chose to stand there and not allow her to legally leave as she had every single right to do.
The officer pulling on her door and banging on her window and swearing at her had ZERO authority to order her out of her vehicle or attempt to make entry into her vehicle. NONE. A single day of actual training of the legal scope of authority and the LAW would've prevented that from happening.
"You now have a frightened citizen being blockaded by immigration agents (with another person in her vehicle) who had zero obligation to follow legally invalid orders from that agent, being blocked in and having a fully grown, masked man attempting to make entry into her car. If this were reversed, every single person would immediately feel she had every reasonable expectation to fear for her safety. It doesn't matter if she knew it was ICE because the agents weren't even acting in their scope of authority anyway.
"Whether or not she made the right decision by very CLEARLY- based off of how hard her wheels were turned and how low and to the driver corner windshield that shot was fired- trying to drive to the left of that agent is IRRELEVANT in the picture as a whole.
None of this would have happened if those agents had done even one single thing correctly. Not just correctly, but within their legal scope of authority. Every single moment of that interaction was escalated by untrained, unprofessional, procedurally inept "agents" who not only had zero control of themselves but everything around them. And not because they are helpless, but because their actions that did not fall under their scope of power CAUSED this. Their tempers, lack of training, and the knowledge that they can get away with violating their own scope of authority caused this.
"I will always be the first to defend law enforcement when lethal force very clearly is required. But this was not even remotely the case, and as an actual TRAINED professional in that field with experience and understanding of both the law and procedures, there is no justification for this- and it would benefit EVERYONE to actually read up on the laws, scope of authority, and use a single shred of common sense to see that this situation was started, escalated, and caused by the ICE agents involved. I have zero respect for those in power who are ignorant of the scope of their authority and abuse it at the cost of lives around them."

Hasn't precedent been set that citizens are allowed to attack law enforcement as Trump "pardoned" all those people convicted from Jan. 6th?

 

[Kieran]

She didn't drive straight at him. I think we've established that. Wheels turned away from him. Try to focus, and not just rant. At least I'm trying to be factual.

You’re like a parody account at this stage. Seriously, you’re going OTT with the non-objective blindly partisan nonsense. Her wheels. FFS. Do you really believe that he had time to look at her fucking wheels? And from the bodycam footage you can see her drive straight at him. He’s in front of the car. The car she’s been ordered to get out of. The car she’s smugly sitting in, taunting the law enforcement, committing crimes.

If she was Maga, you’d be cursing and swearing and backing the police. 4 crimes, and yet she’s a dote. He’s wrong. She drove 5 hours to get involved in something that had nothing to do with her, and she did that so that she could cause trouble and commit crimes.

Next time ask yourself, if she was Maga protesting and obstructing Obamas ICE work, would you feel the same?

We both know the answer.