US Politics Thread

[Federberg]

some interesting views here..

 

[Kieran]

some interesting views here..

These are excellent summaries of the situation, with citations and historical background. Thanks for that!

 

[Kieran]

I haven't been following the Trump-Venezuela situation too clearly, but only somebody with a heart of stone could fail to be thrilled that Maduro no longer rules that poor country. "Poor", literally, which is criminal given their oil assets. My good and gorgeous friend Thais from Venezuela struggled to get back there seven years ago to pay her mothers medical bills, and she entered the country basically with a stuffed suitcase full of notes that were worth much less than the suitcase. And she was afraid she might not be allowed to leave. Venezuela - as we know - is nominally socialist, which is exactly the same in effect as being socialist. It's dirt poor, run by criminals, fill with despair.

More or less, Socialist.

Now, I'm full of admiration for the fact the US actually swooped and gathered up Maduro and his missus so daringly. This is movie-time, filled with typical Trump directness and disregard for the feelings of snowflakes. It's galling to hear the far-left complain that he's going to become a dictator, unless you put this into context: they only want a mono-cultural, political dictatorship of the far-left. Truth doesn't matter to them. They regularly impugn their political opponents as enemies, nazis, fascists, deplorables, triggering and applauding left-wing permanent revolution violence on the streets, protesting things that they don't give a shit about - they only want to disrupt and destroy the most successful societal experience in human history.

I don't know how it will end, but I know Venezuelans are celebrating and suddenly hopeful again, while also cautious about what'll happen next. That's an upgrade for these great people...

 

[mrzz]

I haven't been following the Trump-Venezuela situation too clearly, but only somebody with a heart of stone could fail to be thrilled that Maduro no longer rules that poor country. "Poor", literally, which is criminal given their oil assets. My good and gorgeous friend Thais from Venezuela struggled to get back there seven years ago to pay her mothers medical bills, and she entered the country basically with a stuffed suitcase full of notes that were worth much less than the suitcase. And she was afraid she might not be allowed to leave. Venezuela - as we know - is nominally socialist, which is exactly the same in effect as being socialist. It's dirt poor, run by criminals, fill with despair.

More or less, Socialist.

Now, I'm full of admiration for the fact the US actually swooped and gathered up Maduro and his missus so daringly. This is movie-time, filled with typical Trump directness and disregard for the feelings of snowflakes. It's galling to hear the far-left complain that he's going to become a dictator, unless you put this into context: they only want a mono-cultural, political dictatorship of the far-left. Truth doesn't matter to them. They regularly impugn their political opponents as enemies, nazis, fascists, deplorables, triggering and applauding left-wing permanent revolution violence on the streets, protesting things that they don't give a shit about - they only want to disrupt and destroy the most successful societal experience in human history.

I don't know how it will end, but I know Venezuelans are celebrating and suddenly hopeful again, while also cautious about what'll happen next. That's an upgrade for these great people...

Kieran, don't get me wrong, I am obviously happy to see Maduro go. Venezuela is a big fat failed experiment, if it ever was an experiment.

My comment above was about the end result for both Venezuela and Trump. Of course it is good to get rid of Maduro, and, probably, this means that the Venezuelan regime is one step closer to its end, but... as you know, the match only ends after the match point.

 

[Kieran]

Kieran, don't get me wrong, I am obviously happy to see Maduro go. Venezuela is a big fat failed experiment, if it ever was an experiment.

My comment above was about the end result for both Venezuela and Trump. Of course it is good to get rid of Maduro, and, probably, this means that the Venezuelan regime is one step closer to its end, but... as you know, the match only ends after the match point.

Oh I agree! There’s lots of Unknown Unknowns in this one, but getting rid of Madura opens up a lot of possibilities for that country. Hopefully his cronies follow, but we’ll see.

As for Trump, well, we’re seeing. He’s a man of action, where we like what he does or not.

 

[Federberg]

She makes some great points. We don't have to support the deeper motives of Trump to be happy with what's happened. Two things can be true

 

[Moxie]

She makes some great points. We don't have to support the deeper motives of Trump to be happy with what's happened. Two things can be true

No one is going to miss Maduro, but you should watch the video that comes after "Venezuelans Condemn the Invasion." That was the one that came up for me.

 

[Moxie]

I haven't been following the Trump-Venezuela situation too clearly, but only somebody with a heart of stone could fail to be thrilled that Maduro no longer rules that poor country. "Poor", literally, which is criminal given their oil assets. My good and gorgeous friend Thais from Venezuela struggled to get back there seven years ago to pay her mothers medical bills, and she entered the country basically with a stuffed suitcase full of notes that were worth much less than the suitcase. And she was afraid she might not be allowed to leave. Venezuela - as we know - is nominally socialist, which is exactly the same in effect as being socialist. It's dirt poor, run by criminals, fill with despair.

More or less, Socialist.

Now, I'm full of admiration for the fact the US actually swooped and gathered up Maduro and his missus so daringly. This is movie-time, filled with typical Trump directness and disregard for the feelings of snowflakes. It's galling to hear the far-left complain that he's going to become a dictator, unless you put this into context: they only want a mono-cultural, political dictatorship of the far-left. Truth doesn't matter to them. They regularly impugn their political opponents as enemies, nazis, fascists, deplorables, triggering and applauding left-wing permanent revolution violence on the streets, protesting things that they don't give a shit about - they only want to disrupt and destroy the most successful societal experience in human history.

I don't know how it will end, but I know Venezuelans are celebrating and suddenly hopeful again, while also cautious about what'll happen next. That's an upgrade for these great people...

No one is going to be sad about Maduro, but "only somebody with a heart of stone," as you say, could miss the fact that this was an illegal action on the part of the US. Did Venezuela ask them to come in and overturn their (yes, probably illegal) government? They ARE still a sovereign nation. You may admire it for the machismo and cinematic nature of it, but I'm sure you also have some respect for international law. I hope you have respect for the laws of the US, too. Trump was not authorized by Congress to do this. It's a Dic(k)tatorial move.

Trump has 3 more years to do whatever he wants, and the Supreme Court has basically told him he won't be held accountable, so he is riding roughshod over our laws and our Constitution. He has fully copped to it being about their oil, now, and the interests of US oil companies. I promise you, the people in the US, who are still suffering with the cost of their daily lives, and now even more, their healthcare, are not going to be impressed by this.

As @mrzz says, let's see how this plays out.

 

[mrzz]

(yes, probably illegal)

Definitely illegal. A perfect analogy to what they did is this: a group of people cast their votes to elect a leader. They write down their votes, then someone counts them and says "I am the leader", but does not let anyone else see and count the votes too. This is precisely what happened there. No one denies that, not even the government. They simply said that they do not need to present anything (apart from a piece of paper saying "we won").

Apart from that, the opposition has produced evidence that they actually won, which probably (most likely) it is the case. But there is zero doubt that election results are illegitimate given the argument above.

 

[Moxie]

Definitely illegal. A perfect analogy to what they did is this: a group of people cast their votes to elect a leader. They write down their votes, then someone counts them and says "I am the leader", but does not let anyone else see and count the votes too. This is precisely what happened there. No one denies that, not even the government. They simply said that they do not need to present anything (apart from a piece of paper saying "we won").

Apart from that, the opposition has produced evidence that they actually won, which probably (most likely) it is the case. But there is zero doubt that election results are illegitimate given the argument above.

I understand that. I couched it just for the sake of not making a new argument.

The problem is that Trump's actions are also illegal, At the risk of being trite: 2 wrongs don't make a right. Trump has never made clear to the American people what he is going for, with this. I understand there is an indictment, and it seems plausible that Maduro was actually involved in drug trafficking. But it still is true that Venezuela tends to traffic cocaine, and most of it to Europe. So what has this to do with the fentanyl crisis that Trump is so exercised about? It has nothing to do with it.

This is the guy who gifted himself with a military parade on his birthday. He's a man-child playing at war. Wait and see who suffers the consequences.

 

[Kieran]

No one is going to be sad about Maduro, but "only somebody with a heart of stone," as you say, could miss the fact that this was an illegal action on the part of the US. Did Venezuela ask them to come in and overturn their (yes, probably illegal) government? They ARE still a sovereign nation. You may admire it for the machismo and cinematic nature of it, but I'm sure you also have some respect for international law. I hope you have respect for the laws of the US, too. Trump was not authorized by Congress to do this. It's a Dic(k)tatorial move.

Trump has 3 more years to do whatever he wants, and the Supreme Court has basically told him he won't be held accountable, so he is riding roughshod over our laws and our Constitution. He has fully copped to it being about their oil, now, and the interests of US oil companies. I promise you, the people in the US, who are still suffering with the cost of their daily lives, and now even more, their healthcare, are not going to be impressed by this.

As @mrzz says, let's see how this plays out.

You know they still debate the legality of Obama’s strikes in Libya, and I’m sure you complained about them too. But Madura is definitely not a sovereign leader of a country that voted him out. He’s a cruel tyrant who didn’t care a bit about that great country he was busy raping. And the country that you’re clutching your pearls for is celebrating the end of this animals reign.

It was daring and well planned and successful operation. Meanwhile, the “No Kings” twits are out in force protesting in favour of a tyrant. Natch. You couldn’t make this stuff up. If the American left were fiction, people would say that book is too far fetched…

 

[Kieran]

I understand that. I couched it just for the sake of not making a new argument.

The problem is that Trump's actions are also illegal, At the risk of being trite: 2 wrongs don't make a right. Trump has never made clear to the American people what he is going for, with this. I understand there is an indictment, and it seems plausible that Maduro was actually involved in drug trafficking. But it still is true that Venezuela tends to traffic cocaine, and most of it to Europe. So what has this to do with the fentanyl crisis that Trump is so exercised about? It has nothing to do with it.

This is the guy who gifted himself with a military parade on his birthday. He's a man-child playing at war. Wait and see who suffers the consequences.

Two wrongs don’t make a right? Seriously, a cliche covers all this? If Hitler had been assassinated to stop his murder of Jews, would you say, “two wrongs don’t make a right?”

Speaking of, I see guy who would have celebrated Bondi Beach is upset over Trumps move. Don’t you understand - yet - that if the Greta’s and AOC’s and Mamdani’s of this world are upset by something, it default setting means that thing is good?

 

[Federberg]

No one is going to miss Maduro, but you should watch the video that comes after "Venezuelans Condemn the Invasion." That was the one that came up for me.

can you post it?

 

[Federberg]

Two wrongs don’t make a right? Seriously, a cliche covers all this? If Hitler had been assassinated to stop his murder of Jews, would you say, “two wrongs don’t make a right?”

Speaking of, I see guy who would have celebrated Bondi Beach is upset over Trumps move. Don’t you understand - yet - that if the Greta’s and AOC’s and Mamdani’s of this world are upset by something, it default setting means that thing is good?

I think you can both applaud Maduro's ouster and still be concerned about the purpose/consequences of this adventure. You brought up Libya. Gaddafi was a tyrant and promoted instability across African for the greater idea of a Pan-African continent. I didn't have a problem with Gaddafi being removed, but what was horrific was that there was zero thought given to what would come after. Sometimes what comes after is WORSE. Look at Saddam's ouster. That opened the door to ISIS. With Gaddafi, it turns out he was the glue that kept the tribal conflicts suppressed, and has now led to Libya being the primary staging point for mass migration into Europe. From the sounds of it, Maduro turned Venezuela, one of the most resource rich countries in the world into a criminal/mafia state. But again... has any thought been given... serious thought.. into what it's going to look like in the aftermath? If the answer is no, given what we've learned from Syria, Libya and Iraq... then mate... this is just one massive clusterfuck. And that's not a leftie or rightie conclusion. It's an experience based conclusion that all common sense folk should agree with

 

[Federberg]

Trying to think my way thru the implications of this intervention in Venezuela. Does it invite countries like China and Russia to do the same in their "areas of influence"? The obvious concern is Taiwan... but there's another way to look at this. This is a terrifying advertisement of US military power. Venezuela had, supposedly, the most comprehensive air defence capabilities in South America, courtesy of the Chinese. Yet US Special Forces waltzed in and out with no resistance. Following on from what Trump did in Iran, again a country supported by both Russia and China.... it doesn't scream to me that either Russia or China is going to be encouraged to act with impunity in countries that have American support. That doesn't mean that the concept of might is right is a good thing. But it might not be as immediately threatening as some of us are worried about..

 

[Federberg]

 

[Kieran]

This guy is very clear and knowledgable about the situation, I appreciate these videos. The only people I see complain on social media about this are the ones with modish flags on their profiles. They’re eagerly googling the Venezuelan flag to replace the Palestinian one…

 

[Jelenafan]

You know they still debate the legality of Obama’s strikes in Libya, and I’m sure you complained about them too. But Madura is definitely not a sovereign leader of a country that voted him out. He’s a cruel tyrant who didn’t care a bit about that great country he was busy raping. And the country that you’re clutching your pearls for is celebrating the end of this animals reign.

It was daring and well planned and successful operation. Meanwhile, the “No Kings” twits are out in force protesting in favour of a tyrant. Natch. You couldn’t make this stuff up. If the American left were fiction, people would say that book is too far fetched…

Are you frigging kiddin me??!!! The US history shows it only supports sovereign nations with fair elections and cannot abide cruel tyrants who rape their country?!

Whatever your smoking Kieran it obviously works…

 

[Jelenafan]

At a conference I attended last year prior Secretary of state John Kerry stated “there is nothing foreign about foreign policy”

In the US’s case it is protecting our self interests both domestically & in specific foreign regions. How we go about it is always the eternal debate but what happened this time ( and in countless other times over decades if not several hundred years) isn’t about some lofty ideal of concern for the Venezuelan people or “Democracy”. There are plenty of despots and not fairly elected dictators we have supported. Was it Harry Truman ( or LBJ) who said “he might be a sunofabitch, but he’s OUR sunofabutch”

The self interests?

Oil.
Curtailing Chinese encroachment in our “sphere” which is Latin America.
Crippling Cuba.
Other natural resources of Venezuela are in play.
Perceived good media optics of a quick hit. And so forth and so on,

Oil.

Oil.

It’s irrelevant that Maduro was a POS.
Was this done for genuine concern for the Venezuelan people? Don’t make me laugh.

I am curious how many “insiders” of the Maduro regime are complicit in this raid, and short of direct military intervention how do you fold their oil infrastructure to American oil companies. This isn’t at all played out , though the opposition parties & leaders including the woman who probably won the last election , can’t see them simply acquiescing to Trump’s claim of direct running of their country. Heck aren’t Maduro supporters actually still running the country?

 

[Federberg]

At a conference I attended last year prior Secretary of state John Kerry stated “there is nothing foreign about foreign policy”

In the US’s case it is protecting our self interests both domestically & in specific foreign regions. How we go about it is always the eternal debate but what happened this time ( and in countless other times over decades if not several hundred years) isn’t about some lofty ideal of concern for the Venezuelan people or “Democracy”. There are plenty of despots and not fairly elected dictators we have supported. Was it Harry Truman ( or LBJ) who said “he might be a sunofabitch, but he’s OUR sunofabutch”

The self interests?

Oil.
Curtailing Chinese encroachment in our “sphere” which is Latin America.
Crippling Cuba.
Other natural resources of Venezuela are in play.
Perceived good media optics of a quick hit. And so forth and so on,

Oil.

Oil.

It’s irrelevant that Maduro was a POS.
Was this done for genuine concern for the Venezuelan people? Don’t make me laugh.

I am curious how many “insiders” of the Maduro regime are complicit in this raid, and short of direct military intervention how do you fold their oil infrastructure to American oil companies. This isn’t at all played out , though the opposition parties & leaders including the woman who probably won the last election , can’t see them simply acquiescing to Trump’s claim of direct running of their country. Heck aren’t Maduro supporters actually still running the country?

Venezuelan oil is the heavy sort that is optimal for many US refineries