The Ultimate FEDAL (Wars) Thread

mrzz

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^Hey, I am SUPPORTING your claim, remember? I just explained my train of tought... but I can refrain from supporting you, Murat wouldn't mind.
 

Moxie

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mrzz said:
^Hey, I am SUPPORTING your claim, remember? I just explained my train of tought... but I can refrain from supporting you, Murat wouldn't mind.

You should remember it, too. You have a 10% claim in my steak, so stop arguing with me. :lolz:
 

DarthFed

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Moxie629 said:
DarthFed said:
Roger was probably the 2nd best clay player by 2005. The semi at RG that year was the defacto final and Roger won Hamburg. I'd say 2005-2011 Roger was for the most part the 2nd best on clay.

At the risk of splitting hairs, I don't quite agree with this. It's a bit of a retrospective POV. Coria played the two best clay matches of 2005, MC and Rome, both of which he lost to Nadal, and he was generally perceived as the best clay-courter at that time. Re-watch either of those matches and you'll see how brilliantly Coria played on clay. Roger's game is so multi-faceted and adaptable that he fitted it to clay, too. But he really wasn't a better clay player than Coria in 2005.

Also, there was no concept that the RG semi of Fed v Nadal was the "de facto final" when it happened. Roger only played 3 clay tournaments that year, and won Hamburg. Of course, he was already considered a formidable player, in general. I really do think he became the 2nd-best on clay in 2006. Otherwise, I agree that he was until 2011.

Let's see, Coria won no MS events on clay in 2005 and lost in the 4th round of RG. You don't get credit for near misses vs. Rafa or anyone else.

And yes, even in 2005 everyone knew that semi at RG was the real final much like the 2013 semi with Rafa-Djokovic. Rafa had already gone on a crazy tear on clay and Roger had 2 losses on the season at the time of that match (and if we are giving credit for near misses we might mention that he had match point in both of those matches). It's kind of a stretch to think Puerta or Davydenko would've had even a puncher's chance vs. him. And FWIW had they met at 2005 RG I think it's pretty clear Roger would've been favored over Coria too.
 

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DarthFed said:
Moxie629 said:
DarthFed said:
Roger was probably the 2nd best clay player by 2005. The semi at RG that year was the defacto final and Roger won Hamburg. I'd say 2005-2011 Roger was for the most part the 2nd best on clay.

At the risk of splitting hairs, I don't quite agree with this. It's a bit of a retrospective POV. Coria played the two best clay matches of 2005, MC and Rome, both of which he lost to Nadal, and he was generally perceived as the best clay-courter at that time. Re-watch either of those matches and you'll see how brilliantly Coria played on clay. Roger's game is so multi-faceted and adaptable that he fitted it to clay, too. But he really wasn't a better clay player than Coria in 2005.

Also, there was no concept that the RG semi of Fed v Nadal was the "de facto final" when it happened. Roger only played 3 clay tournaments that year, and won Hamburg. Of course, he was already considered a formidable player, in general. I really do think he became the 2nd-best on clay in 2006. Otherwise, I agree that he was until 2011.

Let's see, Coria won no MS events on clay in 2005 and lost in the 4th round of RG. You don't get credit for near misses vs. Rafa or anyone else.

And yes, even in 2005 everyone knew that semi at RG was the real final much like the 2013 semi with Rafa-Djokovic. Rafa had already gone on a crazy tear on clay and Roger had 2 losses on the season at the time of that match (and if we are giving credit for near misses we might mention that he had match point in both of those matches). It's kind of a stretch to think Puerta or Davydenko would've had even a puncher's chance vs. him. And FWIW had they met at 2005 RG I think it's pretty clear Roger would've been favored over Coria too.

Well said. A point I made as well.
 

Moxie

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^ For the guy not giving credit for near misses, you're the one that brought up the RG SF, for which you are giving Roger credit, but no credit to Coria for much closer finals in two events. I still think your POV is too retrospective, but it's not completely wrong, I just don't think it's that clear, either.
 

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Moxie629 said:
^ For the guy not giving credit for near misses, you're the one that brought up the RG SF, for which you are giving Roger credit, but no credit to Coria for much closer finals in two events. I still think your POV is too retrospective, but it's not completely wrong, I just don't think it's that clear, either.

How am I giving Roger credit for the RG Semifinal? He lost the match and in fairly easy fashion too. Unless you're still hung up on me calling that semi the true final. If that's the case we will agree to disagree. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Puerta wasn't going to take Roger in the final.
 

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Moxie629 said:
^ For the guy not giving credit for near misses, you're the one that brought up the RG SF, for which you are giving Roger credit, but no credit to Coria for much closer finals in two events. I still think your POV is too retrospective, but it's not completely wrong, I just don't think it's that clear, either.

If you're referring to my comment, I'm not trying to give Federer credit. I'm merely pointing out that your statement that Coria had a better clay season in 2005 than Federer is questionable. Not sure what the point of trying to deflect from what was clearly my point. One guy wins a masters series and loses to Nadal in the RG semi. The other guy loses 2 masters series finals. I know whose results I would rather have, but then perhaps it's personal taste :blush:

And for the record I wasn't the one who felt anything was clear..
 

Carol

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Today 11 years ego a very young player named Rafael Nadal beat at that time the #1 named Roger Federer in Miami on HC 6-3 6-3 in just 69 minutes :clap :cool: :angel: :eyepop
Code:
 

Murat Baslamisli

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Carol35 said:
Today 11 years ego a very young player named Rafael Nadal beat at that time the #1 named Roger Federer in Miami on HC 6-3 6-3 in just 69 minutes :clap :cool: :angel: :eyepop
Code:

Yeah but Roger was sick, he had food poisoning, back pain, mono, stereo, etc...and he played with his left hand that day because right one was hurting...:snicker
 

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1972Murat said:
Carol35 said:
Today 11 years ego a very young player named Rafael Nadal beat at that time the #1 named Roger Federer in Miami on HC 6-3 6-3 in just 69 minutes :clap :cool: :angel: :eyepop
Code:

Yeah but Roger was sick, he had food poisoning, back pain, mono, stereo, etc...and he played with his left hand that day because right one was hurting...:snicker

:snicker:laydownlaughing:lolz::clap:devil:p
 

Murat Baslamisli

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Carol35 said:
1972Murat said:
Carol35 said:
Today 11 years ego a very young player named Rafael Nadal beat at that time the #1 named Roger Federer in Miami on HC 6-3 6-3 in just 69 minutes :clap :cool: :angel: :eyepop
Code:

Yeah but Roger was sick, he had food poisoning, back pain, mono, stereo, etc...and he played with his left hand that day because right one was hurting...:snicker

:snicker:laydownlaughing:lolz::clap:devil:p


What, you don't believe me? Here is him playing with Rafa, left handed. Miami was clay in those days....;)

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoILJdC8Bxc[/video]

:popcorn
 

Moxie

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DarthFed said:
Moxie629 said:
^ For the guy not giving credit for near misses, you're the one that brought up the RG SF, for which you are giving Roger credit, but no credit to Coria for much closer finals in two events. I still think your POV is too retrospective, but it's not completely wrong, I just don't think it's that clear, either.

How am I giving Roger credit for the RG Semifinal? He lost the match and in fairly easy fashion too. Unless you're still hung up on me calling that semi the true final. If that's the case we will agree to disagree. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Puerta wasn't going to take Roger in the final.

In your list of reasons for making Roger the #2 on clay that year, you cited the RG semi, and called it the de facto final. I'm not hung up on whether that was right or wrong, as the de facto final (and I do agree with you how it would have likely gone,) I'm only saying that you were mentioning it as a point in Roger's favor, as to who should be considered the 2nd best that year. By that reasoning, I should be able to mention Coria's losses, but close misses, as well. While Rafa was only beginning to be considered the gold standard on clay that year, he has been since. Coria took 4 sets off of Rafa that year, to Roger's one. And Roger has only taken Rafa to 5 on red clay once, the following year. Coria did it twice in 2005. My point is only that Coria was still in the conversation strongly in 2005, and so it's not so clear that Roger was the #2 on clay, that year, specifically.

federberg said:
Moxie629 said:
^ For the guy not giving credit for near misses, you're the one that brought up the RG SF, for which you are giving Roger credit, but no credit to Coria for much closer finals in two events. I still think your POV is too retrospective, but it's not completely wrong, I just don't think it's that clear, either.

If you're referring to my comment, I'm not trying to give Federer credit. I'm merely pointing out that your statement that Coria had a better clay season in 2005 than Federer is questionable. Not sure what the point of trying to deflect from what was clearly my point. One guy wins a masters series and loses to Nadal in the RG semi. The other guy loses 2 masters series finals. I know whose results I would rather have, but then perhaps it's personal taste :blush:

And for the record I wasn't the one who felt anything was clear..

I was referring to Darth in my comment, and we posted at the same time, so sorry for the confusion. I agree that it is questionable as to who was the better clay player in 2005, Federer or Coria. At the time, Coria was considered to be. In retrospect, you might say that Roger had slightly better results, but it's a murky judgement, at best, IMO. As I pointed out to Darth, it was Coria who pressed Rafa harder, when Nadal was supplanting Coria as best on clay.
 

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1972Murat said:
Carol35 said:
1972Murat said:
Yeah but Roger was sick, he had food poisoning, back pain, mono, stereo, etc...and he played with his left hand that day because right one was hurting...:snicker

:snicker:laydownlaughing:lolz::clap:devil:p


What, you don't believe me? Here is him playing with Rafa, left handed. Miami was clay in those days....;)

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoILJdC8Bxc[/video]



:popcorn

LOL
 

kskate2

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This just goes to show how many Fedal fans there are: only 4 days old and already 5 pages long w/o a potential match on the horizon. :eyepop
 

tented

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kskate2 said:
This just goes to show how many Fedal fans there are: only 4 days old and already 5 pages long w/o a potential match on the horizon. :eyepop

It also goes to show what a great idea Murat had to open this thread.
 

Murat Baslamisli

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Ok, now that Rafa is out of yet another hard court tournament early, the question is this: Will the red stuff give him enough confidence for the rest of the year and he will be much better once Canada/Cincy/Open time arrives, or this poor showing will affect the clay performance as well ?

What is the short term prognosis for the guy, for this year?
 

GameSetAndMath

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1972Murat said:
Ok, now that Rafa is out of yet another hard court tournament early, the question is this: Will the red stuff give him enough confidence for the rest of the year and he will be much better once Canada/Cincy/Open time arrives, or this poor showing will affect the clay performance as well ?

What is the short term prognosis for the guy, for this year?

If he does not do well in the clay season, his year is out. Confidence will be totally gone.
They put all their marbles on the clay and if it does not pan out, then there is no way Rafa
will be able to do well the rest of the season. Has to write off the year.
 

DarthFed

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Moxie629 said:
DarthFed said:
Moxie629 said:
^ For the guy not giving credit for near misses, you're the one that brought up the RG SF, for which you are giving Roger credit, but no credit to Coria for much closer finals in two events. I still think your POV is too retrospective, but it's not completely wrong, I just don't think it's that clear, either.

How am I giving Roger credit for the RG Semifinal? He lost the match and in fairly easy fashion too. Unless you're still hung up on me calling that semi the true final. If that's the case we will agree to disagree. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Puerta wasn't going to take Roger in the final.

In your list of reasons for making Roger the #2 on clay that year, you cited the RG semi, and called it the de facto final. I'm not hung up on whether that was right or wrong, as the de facto final (and I do agree with you how it would have likely gone,) I'm only saying that you were mentioning it as a point in Roger's favor, as to who should be considered the 2nd best that year. By that reasoning, I should be able to mention Coria's losses, but close misses, as well. While Rafa was only beginning to be considered the gold standard on clay that year, he has been since. Coria took 4 sets off of Rafa that year, to Roger's one. And Roger has only taken Rafa to 5 on red clay once, the following year. Coria did it twice in 2005. My point is only that Coria was still in the conversation strongly in 2005, and so it's not so clear that Roger was the #2 on clay, that year, specifically.

federberg said:
Moxie629 said:
^ For the guy not giving credit for near misses, you're the one that brought up the RG SF, for which you are giving Roger credit, but no credit to Coria for much closer finals in two events. I still think your POV is too retrospective, but it's not completely wrong, I just don't think it's that clear, either.

If you're referring to my comment, I'm not trying to give Federer credit. I'm merely pointing out that your statement that Coria had a better clay season in 2005 than Federer is questionable. Not sure what the point of trying to deflect from what was clearly my point. One guy wins a masters series and loses to Nadal in the RG semi. The other guy loses 2 masters series finals. I know whose results I would rather have, but then perhaps it's personal taste :blush:

And for the record I wasn't the one who felt anything was clear..

I was referring to Darth in my comment, and we posted at the same time, so sorry for the confusion. I agree that it is questionable as to who was the better clay player in 2005, Federer or Coria. At the time, Coria was considered to be. In retrospect, you might say that Roger had slightly better results, but it's a murky judgement, at best, IMO. As I pointed out to Darth, it was Coria who pressed Rafa harder, when Nadal was supplanting Coria as best on clay.

Moxie, it really sounds like your basing clay prowess solely off of how competitive someone is vs. Nadal. Needless to say it doesn't work like that. Overall results, general consistency and a player's ceiling should rank higher than that and by 2005 Roger was 2nd to Nadal in those areas. Not mentioned before is that you could claim Soderling was 2nd best in 2010 on the surface because Nadal mopped up everything and Sod made the finals of RG again.
 

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DarthFed said:
Roger was probably the 2nd best clay player by 2005. The semi at RG that year was the defacto final and Roger won Hamburg. I'd say 2005-2011 Roger was for the most part the 2nd best on clay.

Let me quote you back to yourself. You cited Roger's loss at RG as a reason to make him 2nd best that year.


DarthFed said:
Moxie629 said:
DarthFed said:
How am I giving Roger credit for the RG Semifinal? He lost the match and in fairly easy fashion too. Unless you're still hung up on me calling that semi the true final. If that's the case we will agree to disagree. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Puerta wasn't going to take Roger in the final.

In your list of reasons for making Roger the #2 on clay that year, you cited the RG semi, and called it the de facto final. I'm not hung up on whether that was right or wrong, as the de facto final (and I do agree with you how it would have likely gone,) I'm only saying that you were mentioning it as a point in Roger's favor, as to who should be considered the 2nd best that year. By that reasoning, I should be able to mention Coria's losses, but close misses, as well. While Rafa was only beginning to be considered the gold standard on clay that year, he has been since. Coria took 4 sets off of Rafa that year, to Roger's one. And Roger has only taken Rafa to 5 on red clay once, the following year. Coria did it twice in 2005. My point is only that Coria was still in the conversation strongly in 2005, and so it's not so clear that Roger was the #2 on clay, that year, specifically.

federberg said:
If you're referring to my comment, I'm not trying to give Federer credit. I'm merely pointing out that your statement that Coria had a better clay season in 2005 than Federer is questionable. Not sure what the point of trying to deflect from what was clearly my point. One guy wins a masters series and loses to Nadal in the RG semi. The other guy loses 2 masters series finals. I know whose results I would rather have, but then perhaps it's personal taste :blush:

And for the record I wasn't the one who felt anything was clear..

I was referring to Darth in my comment, and we posted at the same time, so sorry for the confusion. I agree that it is questionable as to who was the better clay player in 2005, Federer or Coria. At the time, Coria was considered to be. In retrospect, you might say that Roger had slightly better results, but it's a murky judgement, at best, IMO. As I pointed out to Darth, it was Coria who pressed Rafa harder, when Nadal was supplanting Coria as best on clay.

Moxie, it really sounds like your basing clay prowess solely off of how competitive someone is vs. Nadal. Needless to say it doesn't work like that. Overall results, general consistency and a player's ceiling should rank higher than that and by 2005 Roger was 2nd to Nadal in those areas. Not mentioned before is that you could claim Soderling was 2nd best in 2010 on the surface because Nadal mopped up everything and Sod made the finals of RG again.

I was offering that up as a measure of like-to-like, and since you'd already brought losses to Nadal into it. And I'm not sure what you're on about as to Soderling. No one mentioned him on this thread.

And for the record, Coria had more ATP points on clay than Roger in 2005. Although, that took Coria 8 clay tournaments to accomplish, to Fed's 3.