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El Dude

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It’s equally noteworthy that the ban might have benefited him, and had he not been banned, his points per match average might have been affected. Remember, he brought the ban on himself.

And did you notice that had Novak been given points at Wimbledon in 2022, he still wouldn’t have been number 1?
What I'm saying is noteworthy is actual statistical fact. You're saying a hypothetical is noteworthy. That hypothetical might be true, but we just don't know. And I just don't see a hypothetical as being as noteworthy as actual factual results, not to mention a different category of "noteworthiness."

What we do know is that Sinner was only 500 points behind despite playing 4 fewer events. Or to put it more simply, Jannik reached the final in 10 out of 12 events (83%), while Carlos reached the final in 11 out of 16 events (69%).

Again, Carlos had a great year. Pointing out that Sinner's rate statistics were a bit better isn't a slight on Alcaraz.

As for Novak, you're right, though he'd be a lot closer - just 200 points behind. But that's just one of the three Slams that Novak didn't get points for. His duffle bag making an appearance at the AO and/or the USO would have gotten him to #1 quite easily. Again: Carlos was helped by essentially what amounts to political posturing, and Rafa finally falling apart. He didn't seize #1 like, say, Andy Murray in 2016. He was just the next best guy standing there as the Fates cast Djokodal aside in favor of the Promised One.
 

MargaretMcAleer

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Italy are into their 3rd consecutive final in DC defeating Belgium in the 2 single rubbers, Berrettini 63 64 over Collingnon, Cobolli 63 67(5) 76(15) over Bergs, I need to have a quiet talk with Cobolli, I know he saved 7 MPs and that TB was just off the charts, still there was no need for him to do a 'Novak' and rip his Italian shirt open after he won. Meh!
Italy will play the winner of the 2nd DC SF which will take place on Saturday 22nd November,
Spain vs Germany
 
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Kieran

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What I'm saying is noteworthy is actual statistical fact. You're saying a hypothetical is noteworthy.
Then this:
His duffle bag making an appearance at the AO and/or the USO would have gotten him to #1 quite easily.

I’m kind of trying to join the dots here, but they’re missing each other.

As for Novak in 2022 missing tournaments, he chose to do that in America, and he tried to lie and cheat his way into Australia. These are not guarantees that he’d have become number 1.

Let’s leave alone the suspicion that Rafa’s injuries get dismissed, but Novaks hypotheticals swagger around the court with a brand new saddle…
 
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El Dude

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Then this:


I’m kind of trying to join the dots here, but they’re missing each other.

As for Novak in 2022 missing tournaments, he chose to do that in America, and he tried to lie and cheat his way into Australia. These are not guarantees that he’d have become number 1.

Let’s leave alone the suspicion that Rafa’s injuries get dismissed, but Novaks hypotheticals swagger around the court with a brand new saddle…
2022 and 2025 are different cases. If you really want to play the hypothetical game in 2025, we don't know that Jannik wouldn't have been in top form in Rome and RG rather than rusty, and won both. Meaning, if you are going to play one side of the hypothetical, you should at least acknowledge the other. Pointing out actual stat is not hypothetical.

In 2022, it is a very different hypothetical to imagine that Novak would have easily earned 200 ATP points at the USO and AO if he had been allowed to play. Meaning, two 3R losses gets him tied with Carlos. Now of course it is highly likely that he would have earned far more and been far ahead of Alcaraz. Again, Carlos won by default. He was the third best player in 2022, but finished #1 because of helping factors. It happens.
 

Kieran

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2022 and 2025 are different cases. If you really want to play the hypothetical game in 2025, we don't know that Jannik wouldn't have been in top form in Rome and RG rather than rusty, and won both. Meaning, if you are going to play one side of the hypothetical, you should at least acknowledge the other. Pointing out actual stat is not hypothetical.

In 2022, it is a very different hypothetical to imagine that Novak would have easily earned 200 ATP points at the USO and AO if he had been allowed to play. Meaning, two 3R losses gets him tied with Carlos. Now of course it is highly likely that he would have earned far more and been far ahead of Alcaraz. Again, Carlos won by default. He was the third best player in 2022, but finished #1 because of helping factors. It happens.
But it happened forever with Rafa, that players benefited from his injuries, and you never bring this up. Novak WAS allowed to play those tournaments, and he either chose not to in America, or in Australia, he chose to try to cheat.

Cheaters should not benefit from cheating.

As for Sinner and “rather than rusty”, where’s your evidence that he was rusty?
 
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Moxie

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Italy are into their 3rd consecutive final in DC defeating Belgium in the 2 single rubbers, Berrettini 63 64 over Collingnon, Cobolli 63 67(5) 76(15) over Bergs, I need to have a quiet talk with Cobolli, I know he saved 7 MPs and that TB was just off the charts, still there was no need for him to do a 'Novak' and rip his Italian shirt open after he won. Meh!
Italy will play the winner of the 2nd DC SF which will take place on Saturday 22nd November,
Spain vs Germany
Ha! I did wonder if you'd react to the shirt ripping by Cobolli. Anyway, I only caught the beginning and end of that match, but it was a corker! They said the 3rd set was 94 minutes! The commies said it was one of the matches of the year. You can't always believe them, but I may watch the rerun.

Querrey thinks Germany will win tomorrow, and I have to say, they have the stronger side, with Zverev. But I'll be rooting for Spain.
 

Moxie

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Moxie, I looked back at that conversation and you brought up the word "asterisk" first: You asked if I thought Alcaraz's YE #1s deserved asterisks. I replied by saying not 2025 but that 2022 was "asterisk-worthy," for reasons I won't repeat but still stand by. But again, I'm not saying it should be taken away or is a big deal, just that--to go back to my initial post on the matter--Alcaraz had "help" in earning #1. He essentially won it by default, not because he was a better player than Rafa or Novak.

Part of the issue here is viewing my POV of as some kind of controversial take or I'm going on a crusade. I'm not. I hold these things a lot more lightly than you seem to think I do, perhaps because we approach tennis discussion in a rather different manner.
Because of what you posted, I asked the common follow-up question in sports, which is simply, "Are you putting an asterisk?" Based on what you wrote, it's a fair question. You did say, as to 2022, "Yeah, asterisk."

I totally understood the spirit in which you wrote it. You're a stats guy. I know you mean it "lightly," or not necessarily to be controversial, but it's discussion worthy, so we're discussing. What's the point of the boards if we don't discuss the POVs? I know you feel that I come out with my boxing gloves on, but, well, that's just me. I'm a NYer, and I come off that way. If you were sitting across the table from me, you'd see it as more light-hearted.
 
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MargaretMcAleer

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Ha! I did wonder if you'd react to the shirt ripping by Cobolli. Anyway, I only caught the beginning and end of that match, but it was a corker! They said the 3rd set was 94 minutes! The commies said it was one of the matches of the year. You can't always believe them, but I may watch the rerun.

Querrey thinks Germany will win tomorrow, and I have to say, they have the stronger side, with Zverev. But I'll be rooting for Spain.
Corolli idol is Novak another reason I need to talk to him
Don't count out Spain that's why I love DC when a player regardless of their ranking rise above when they play for their country
 
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Moxie

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2022 and 2025 are different cases. If you really want to play the hypothetical game in 2025, we don't know that Jannik wouldn't have been in top form in Rome and RG rather than rusty, and won both. Meaning, if you are going to play one side of the hypothetical, you should at least acknowledge the other. Pointing out actual stat is not hypothetical.

In 2022, it is a very different hypothetical to imagine that Novak would have easily earned 200 ATP points at the USO and AO if he had been allowed to play. Meaning, two 3R losses gets him tied with Carlos. Now of course it is highly likely that he would have earned far more and been far ahead of Alcaraz. Again, Carlos won by default. He was the third best player in 2022, but finished #1 because of helping factors. It happens.
Bottom line is that the system, which I've heard you say is far better than it used to be, says that you earn the most ATP in the year, you are the YE#1. I know there are other points-evaluating systems that you like, but this is the one we have. And I think win percentage is a slippery slope. Because it wouldn't be used only for the Top 2. Some would also have to be rewarded for only playing a small number of tournaments and winning most of their matches. The ATP is invested in players playing a lot of matches, and it rewards them for it. And lesser players who play a lot of tournaments, but tend to go out early would lose standing. This is not in the interest of the ATP.

There is a lot that was odd about 2022. I think we all realized at the time that Alcaraz was the last man standing. That he was young, and full of promise, and we hoped he'd fulfill it. Which he has. It would have been an asterisk if he'd gotten to number 1 that year, and then fallen off the radar. And I don't really mind if you want an asterisk because the point system was rather broken by Wimbledon. However, just because you don't agree with why Novak didn't play the AO or the USO, doesn't mean that it wasn't his choice. He knew the price of admission to the AO in 2022, and it was to be vaccinated against Covid. He knew admission to the US (which included IW and Miami) depended on his getting vaccinated, and he refused. That was all his choice.

Which is similar to being injured, in terms of absence, though injury isn't a choice. As Kieran rightly complains, and I co-sign, where were you complaining about Novak's hoovering up points when Rafa was not there to face him in a Major, due to injury? Remember their H2H at Majors.

If you're going to point out the difference in win % this year, and just make it about the Top 2, then why not also, or otherwise, make it about the H2H between them this year? Alcaraz is 4-2 this year, and 2-1 in Major finals in the H2H.

I know you say that Carlos deserves it, and he does. You're just positing a win pct. But what about the H2H? See what happens? It can't be just about win percentage that makes a player the best one of the year. There is a lot that goes into it. So, the ATP points are the best we got.
 

Moxie

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Corolli idol is Novak another reason I need to talk to him
Don't count out Spain that's why I love DC when a player regardless of their ranking rise above when they play for their country
Frankly, who had Belgium beating France? I agree with you that DC is its own animal. And the only place where doubles can decide things.

Berrettini and Cobolli are aware that their top 2 players are not playing, and I know today's win means a lot. Not to jinx it, but I think they'll repeat, whoever wins tomorrow. :crossed-fingers:
 
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Moxie

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What a TB in the 2nd set! PCB had won the first 6-4, then Struff had 6-1 in the 2nd set TB, and PCB clawed it all the way back to win in straights. Spain leads Germany 1-0. Zverev v Munar up now.
 

MargaretMcAleer

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What a TB in the 2nd set! PCB had won the first 6-4, then Struff had 6-1 in the 2nd set TB, and PCB clawed it all the way back to win in straights. Spain leads Germany 1-0. Zverev v Munar up now.
It will now come down to the doubles, bad luck to Munar, beaten in 2 tight TB sets, both Spain and Germany have solid doubles team.
 

MargaretMcAleer

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BTW,
That epic TB, Cobilli and Bergs final TB was the sixth longest TB in the 125 year history of the Davis Cup!
 
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MargaretMcAleer

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Deciding doubles tie between Spain v Germany to play in the final against Italy has just started
Granollers/Martinez vs Krawietz/ Puetz
 

MargaretMcAleer

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Spain are on Fire and are up a double break lead Germany 3-0, came out of the gates firing, their return game has been perfect so far
Gee Granollers is great at the net, great stretch volley there.Spain 4-0
Spain leading 5-1 1st set,
Spain win the 1st set 62 and are one set away from being in the final!
 
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MargaretMcAleer

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Jeus what a return cross court winner from Granollers it was in!
Germany playing much better this 2nd set, have found their level, while Spain's level has dipped a bit especially on their return game
Germany leading 5-2 2nd set
Germany win the 2nd set 63
Going 3 sets
 
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MargaretMcAleer

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Granollers has to be the 'calmest' player on the court his volley skills are just Unreal!
Spain have found their groove in the 3rd set, leading 4-1 and are only a few games away from being in the final
 
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MargaretMcAleer

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Spain will serve for the match and for a place in the final at 5-3
Spain d Germany 62 36 63 in the deciding doubles and they will play Italy on Sunday in the final and for the title in DC!
This will be Spain's 11th DC final and are back in the final for the first time since 2019!
 
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Moxie

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Spain will serve for the match and for a place in the final at 5-3
Spain d Germany 62 36 63 in the deciding doubles and they will play Italy on Sunday in the final and for the title in DC!
This will be Spain's 11th DC final and are back in the final for the first time since 2019!
Some excellent matches this week in the DC. I'm getting used to the new format.

My two favorite teams of the week made the final, so I'm happy for that. A friend immediately asked who I'd root for tomorrow. I'm going with Italy. Not because I think they'll win, though I do. There are reasons to like both teams.

I'm going with Italy because:
1. Babycakes! And not just because he's dreamy. He needs the Davis Cup Bump. So many injuries. I'd love to see him go into 2026 fully fit and with the confidence and high off of a DC win.
2. Cobolli, and not just because he's pretty dreamy, too. He played a cracker of a match yesterday! And he's fun to watch.
3. Because Italy is playing without Sinner AND without Musetti, its top 2 players.
4. For the repeat, and at home.

You can also say that Spain is playing without Alcaraz, so valiant on them. Also, PCB is coming back from a long, painful injury, and he's been a feel-good story. His comeback in the 2nd set TB today v. Struff was heroic. And Munar is having his best year yet.
 
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MargaretMcAleer

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Some excellent matches this week in the DC. I'm getting used to the new format.

My two favorite teams of the week made the final, so I'm happy for that. A friend immediately asked who I'd root for tomorrow. I'm going with Italy. Not because I think they'll win, though I do. There are reasons to like both teams.

I'm going with Italy because:
1. Babycakes! And not just because he's dreamy. He needs the Davis Cup Bump. So many injuries. I'd love to see him go into 2026 fully fit and with the confidence and high off of a DC win.
2. Cobolli, and not just because he's pretty dreamy, too. He played a cracker of a match yesterday! And he's fun to watch.
3. Because Italy is playing without Sinner AND without Musetti, its top 2 players.
4. For the repeat, and at home.

You can also say that Spain is playing without Alcaraz, so valiant on them. Also, PCB is coming back from a long, painful injury, and he's been a feel-good story. His comeback in the 2nd set TB today v. Struff was heroic. And Munar is having his best year yet.
I love DC I forget about ranking and so do the players
It's all about playing for your country and giving your best
Being Italian I hope that Italy can win
Still I love Spain in DC over the years and I won't be upset if they win
Both teams have played without their strong players and both teams have raised their games to win
If Italy happens to win I might forgive Cobilli ripping off his shirt lol
 
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