US Politics Thread

Fiero425

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I addressed the points in your first paragraph, which were germane to this conversation. As to the firebombing in Boulder, I'm sorry, but I don't find one specific example of a racist nut job that interesting to the wider concern. It's not different than the home-grown American anti-semite who killed 11 people at the Tree of Life Synagogue in PA a few years ago. There will be criminals who do horrible things, but they're not all immigrants, illegal or otherwise. Those are stand-alone examples, and don't tell you who the vast majority of immigrants are in this country, or any country, for that matter.

We're discussing the protests in LA, and I'm also talking about the seizing and deporting of people wholesale, without due process. Trump said he was going to get rid of illegals who were criminals. Perhaps if they'd been more judicious about who they were going after, they might have picked up that guy in CO who overstayed his visa before he was able to attack those people. No such care is being taken.

But speaking of not addressing what the other person wrote in response, you responded to nothing in my post. You only came back with your same-old: that I'm a partisan, that I never criticize my own side, and back to the castration of boys.

I have NOT cheered rioters. Federberg and I are discussing how that's a bad look, but also how much that's being overblown, in terms of LA. I posted a longer bit above on this, with a radio clip of an LA Times reporter telling what's really going on in LA, which is only 15-20 minutes long. From a very reliable and fair program. You would do well to listen to it, before you go off on how violent it all is.

I didn't ask you this directly, but I will now: Are you OK with Trump flaunting the rule of law to his end of mass-deportation? He has defied court orders. He has denied due process to many of these people, which the courts are telling him he cannot due. He's discussing suspending habeas corpus. "Due process of law" and habeas corpus applies to everyone in the US, regardless of citizenship status. It is the rule of law. How do you feel about those laws being suspended, or potentially so? Because then it applies to everyone, once you move the bar and set new precedent. And he's got the Supreme Court he packed.

The only thing worth "SMH" over is that Obama probably deported more Mexicans, but didn't do it in such an obnoxious way as Trump! Something's seriously wrong w/ our populous not raising HELL over what's going on w/ ICE, Nat'l Guards, a complicit political party, & a lawless president! It was bad enough when people were being detained in dog cages the last term, now innocent Americans who happen to be Latino are being snatched up off the street as if living in old East Germany or Russia! I barely hear a little bit here & there! My BP can't handle "the news" so I avoid it spending my time on You Tube & my video collection! It's truly amazing how easy it is not to be informed as some are out here trying to preach to us how to handle our affairs! I have to just ignore them; actually overlook whole posts! We're fighting a losing battle w/ real insensitive morons out there! :astonished-face:
 
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Moxie

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Something's seriously wrong w/ our populous not raising HELL over what's going on w/ ICE, Nat'l Guards, a complicit political party, & a lawless president!
But people ARE raising hell. Tomorrow is a big No Kings protest nationwide. Particularly as a counterpoint to Trump throwing himself a big military parade in DC for his birthday tomorrow.
This may make you laugh: there is a Craiglist ad which may or may not be a hoax appealing for seat fillers for the military parade. :face-with-tears-of-joy: Let's see what the turnout is like. But I still say it's a huge waste of taxpayer money, given that this administration created a Department of Government Efficiency. Most Americans polled do not think it's a good use of their money to hold that parade. And his other numbers are tanking, too.
 
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Kieran

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I addressed the points in your first paragraph, which were germane to this conversation. As to the firebombing in Boulder, I'm sorry, but I don't find one specific example of a racist nut job that interesting to the wider concern. It's not different than the home-grown American anti-semite who killed 11 people at the Tree of Life Synagogue in PA a few years ago. There will be criminals who do horrible things, but they're not all immigrants, illegal or otherwise. Those are stand-alone examples, and don't tell you who the vast majority of immigrants are in this country, or any country, for that matter.
You missed the complete point of this. It’s not that he’s an immigrant, and illegal one, it’s the sympathy for his family and their potentially ruined hopes.

The sympathy is misplaced. Or premature. Perhaps if daddy wasn’t a terrorist then their lives might be different, right? The thinking behind that article is almost as big a problem as what the terrorist did.

And it’s very different to your home grown antisemite, who seems unfortunately to represent a lot of people in the west.
We're discussing the protests in LA, and I'm also talking about the seizing and deporting of people wholesale, without due process. Trump said he was going to get rid of illegals who were criminals. Perhaps if they'd been more judicious about who they were going after, they might have picked up that guy in CO who overstayed his visa before he was able to attack those people. No such care is being taken.

But speaking of not addressing what the other person wrote in response, you responded to nothing in my post. You only came back with your same-old: that I'm a partisan, that I never criticize my own side, and back to the castration of boys.

I have NOT cheered rioters. Federberg and I are discussing how that's a bad look, but also how much that's being overblown, in terms of LA. I posted a longer bit above on this, with a radio clip of an LA Times reporter telling what's really going on in LA, which is only 15-20 minutes long. From a very reliable and fair program. You would do well to listen to it, before you go off on how violent it all is.

I didn't ask you this directly, but I will now: Are you OK with Trump flaunting the rule of law to his end of mass-deportation? He has defied court orders. He has denied due process to many of these people, which the courts are telling him he cannot do. He's discussing suspending habeas corpus. "Due process of law" and habeas corpus applies to everyone in the US, regardless of citizenship status. It is the rule of law. How do you feel about those laws being suspended, or potentially so? Because then it applies to everyone, once you move the bar and set new precedent. And he's got the Supreme Court he packed.
If trump broke the law then he’s being monotonously consistent, just like the left and their violence. I have more sympathy for the victims of their “protests” and the law enforcement officers and ICE officials who are under attack. I know there have been some foreign students deported for what they try to foment on college campus.

You are better off without them, and it’s proper that they were deported. This is not an issue of free speech..
 

Moxie

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You missed the complete point of this. It’s not that he’s an immigrant, and illegal one, it’s the sympathy for his family and their potentially ruined hopes.

The sympathy is misplaced. Or premature. Perhaps if daddy wasn’t a terrorist then their lives might be different, right? The thinking behind that article is almost as big a problem as what the terrorist did.
I didn't completely miss the point. Read what you wrote. You talked about the man who did it, that he was illegal, what he did, etc., and stuck a bit on at the end that USA Today wrote and article about his family that you find inappropriately sympathetic to their own misfortunes. I chose to ignore that part, because you already editorialized what you thought. Plus, a) it was USA Today, aka, "McPaper," and b) newspapers write companion stories to lots of big headline incidents. However, to my reading, you invited commentary over the whole event. Particularly since that's what we were actually talking about.
And it’s very different to your home grown antisemite, who seems unfortunately to represent a lot of people in the west.
Tell me how one brand of murderous antisemitism is different from another. IMO, people that do things like that are not a commonplace. They're crazy.
If trump broke the law then he’s being monotonously consistent, just like the left and their violence. I have more sympathy for the victims of their “protests” and the law enforcement officers and ICE officials who are under attack. I know there have been some foreign students deported for what they try to foment on college campus.

You are better off without them, and it’s proper that they were deported. This is not an issue of free speech..
I find it unfortunate that that's all you have to say about Trump's breaking of laws, and defying of the courts. Maybe you don't know what "due process" means, but everyone is entitled to it, in this country. Do you understand what it means even that he threatens to suspend habeas corpus? I'm not trying to treat you like a dummy, but we have different laws and different wordings in our countries. If you are that complacent about it, I wonder if you get the implications.

As to foreign students and various troubles with immigration due to participating in pro-Palestinian rallies on campuses, if all they did was protest, and their papers were otherwise in order, it absolutely IS an issue of free speech. That protection is not extended only to citizens. They are accused of being pro-Hamas, which is NOT the same thing as being pro-Palestinian, or of protesting the treatment of Palestinians in Gaza since the war started. The government is willfully and opportunistically conflating the two things, artificially. In the same way, to be against Netanyahu and his far-right government is NOT the same as being anti-Semitic. Hell, a huge majority of Israelis are against Netanyahu, and including his policies towards Gaza.

However, some had over-stayed visas, and in this climate, that's a big problem. Still, everyone is entitled to a hearing before being deported, and this is not happening, in many cases, and I'm talking about all of them.

I do understand that there are freedom of speech issues on campuses, for some time now. Something I admit to having been slow to grasp. The shouting about it, in recent years, has come from the right. But suddenly, now, they're against it. You don't correct a problem by going extreme in the reverse.
 

Kieran

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I didn't completely miss the point. Read what you wrote. You talked about the man who did it, that he was illegal, what he did, etc., and stuck a bit on at the end that USA Today wrote and article about his family that you find inappropriately sympathetic to their own misfortunes. I chose to ignore that part,
And so you missed the point: it's inappropriate to be concerned for a terrorists family when said terrorist has spent a year plotting to kill Jews. It shows a reckless regard for your own citizens, and a lack of respect for the law.
Tell me how one brand of murderous antisemitism is different from another. IMO, people that do things like that are not a commonplace. They're crazy.
The crazy one was an illegal immigrant who shouldn't have been there to bomb Jews. That's the difference. You have enough anti-semites running wild around the place hollering for the genocide of Jews without having illegals plotting to bomb them in your country.

As to foreign students and various troubles with immigration due to participating in pro-Palestinian rallies on campuses, if all they did was protest, and their papers were otherwise in order, it absolutely IS an issue of free speech. That protection is not extended only to citizens. They are accused of being pro-Hamas, which is NOT the same thing as being pro-Palestinian, or of protesting the treatment of Palestinians in Gaza since the war started. The government is willfully and opportunistically conflating the two things, artificially. In the same way, to be against Netanyahu and his far-right government is NOT the same as being anti-Semitic. Hell, a huge majority of Israelis are against Netanyahu, and including his policies towards Gaza.
To chant support for terrorists and call for the annihilation of Jews is not covered by "free speech". And if you're on a student visa and you're blocking Jewish students from entering class, then your visa can be revoked. They do not have full citizens rights, they are there as guests under certain conditions. I recommend reading the report into antisemitism at Harvard to see the full extent of how widespread the hatred of Jews has become, and why Harvard is facing huge financial sanctions. I'm not finished reading it yet but I see a lot in it that can be said to be a problem in Ireland too.
I do understand that there are freedom of speech issues on campuses, for some time now. Something I admit to having been slow to grasp. The shouting about it, in recent years, has come from the right. But suddenly, now, they're against it. You don't correct a problem by going extreme in the reverse.
You took your time but that's fair enough. The left's hold over who should speak and what's allowed to be said is breaking. Far as I know, there might be people on the right who want to block free speech - in fact, I'm sure there are - but if you're referring to people being deported for basically becoming activists and threatening Jews, well, as I say, that's not covered by "free speech..."
 

Moxie

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Violent rhetoric has consequences. A madman also took a hammer to Nancy Pelosi's husband's head. Someone shot at Trump during the campaign. And someone shot Gabbie Giffords. I don't have to recount the obvious ones. We are a violent people with easy access to guns. (Though, apparently, hammers will do.) It's all a national shame.
 
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Moxie

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The crazy one was an illegal immigrant who shouldn't have been there to bomb Jews. That's the difference. You have enough anti-semites running wild around the place hollering for the genocide of Jews without having illegals plotting to bomb them in your country.
How is one less crazy than the other? Unless you think that day-to-day antisemitism in the West is acceptable. You don't make sense. All antisemitism is wrong. But you understand that there are layers of prejudice, in all cases. Some people just quietly dislike or distrust Jews or Black or Brown people. (Sadly, Trump has given them voice.) And then there are nuts, who act out on their outsized fears of others, such as Jews. But why is is the illegal alien the crazy one, and the homegrown anti-Semite not crazy? Are you saying that it's more egregious because he shouldn't have been there in the first place, to cause the harm, or that he's crazier, because, what, Western anti-Semitism is OK?
To chant support for terrorists and call for the annihilation of Jews is not covered by "free speech". And if you're on a student visa and you're blocking Jewish students from entering class, then your visa can be revoked. They do not have full citizens rights, they are there as guests under certain conditions. I recommend reading the report into antisemitism at Harvard to see the full extent of how widespread the hatred of Jews has become, and why Harvard is facing huge financial sanctions. I'm not finished reading it yet but I see a lot in it that can be said to be a problem in Ireland too.

You took your time but that's fair enough. The left's hold over who should speak and what's allowed to be said is breaking. Far as I know, there might be people on the right who want to block free speech - in fact, I'm sure there are - but if you're referring to people being deported for basically becoming activists and threatening Jews, well, as I say, that's not covered by "free speech..."
You clearly didn't read what I wrote above. All nuance is lost on you. Also, you really don't understand what free speech is, in this country. And yes, it is protected for everyone. Not just citizens. Even hate speech is protected in this country. The ACLU has historically gone to bat for the KKK, American Nazis and the Nation of Islam for their right to speech and assembly. You may not like it all, but it IS protected speech. If you are not being violent, you can say anything you want. The classic counter-example is that you can't yell "Fire" in a movie theatre, if there is none. But, unlike Germany, for example, which prohibits Nazi symbols and other such speech, we have no prohibitions. If it's only speech, and peaceful assembly, you can say what you want. Like it or not. If laws get broken, if violence is involved, then you're not only liable for the violence, but for civil rights violations, if you are seen to have violated civil rights. There is a limit, and the limit is violence.
 

Kieran

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How is one less crazy than the other? Unless you think that day-to-day antisemitism in the West is acceptable. You don't make sense. All antisemitism is wrong. But you understand that there are layers of prejudice, in all cases. Some people just quietly dislike or distrust Jews or Black or Brown people. (Sadly, Trump has given them voice.) And then there are nuts, who act out on their outsized fears of others, such as Jews. But why is is the illegal alien the crazy one, and the homegrown anti-Semite not crazy? Are you saying that it's more egregious because he shouldn't have been there in the first place, to cause the harm, or that he's crazier, because, what, Western anti-Semitism is OK?

Why are you missing the point here? Seriously, it’s straightforward: the terrorist was in your country illegally. All antisemitism is bad, the difference with him was that he should never have been in your country in the first place.

You clearly didn't read what I wrote above. All nuance is lost on you. Also, you really don't understand what free speech is, in this country. And yes, it is protected for everyone. Not just citizens. Even hate speech is protected in this country. The ACLU has historically gone to bat for the KKK, American Nazis and the Nation of Islam for their right to speech and assembly. You may not like it all, but it IS protected speech. If you are not being violent, you can say anything you want. The classic counter-example is that you can't yell "Fire" in a movie theatre, if there is none. But, unlike Germany, for example, which prohibits Nazi symbols and other such speech, we have no prohibitions. If it's only speech, and peaceful assembly, you can say what you want. Like it or not. If laws get broken, if violence is involved, then you're not only liable for the violence, but for civil rights violations, if you are seen to have violated civil rights. There is a limit, and the limit is violence.
I ignored most of this because it was somebody feeling superior to me telling me wrong stuff about what I’m saying.

Supporting terrorists and being a threat to national security and to US citizens - Jewish or otherwise - is not free speech. Incitement to violence is not covered by the first amendment. I remember you applauded the bug eyed freak who screeched at Josh Hawley that his questions were violence, well the rhetoric on campus is violent towards Jewish students and they don’t feel safe. I’m not talking about crybully leftist safe space nonsense either, I’m talking about actual safety. They are being blocked from going to class by deranged fellow students and professors who are ideologically compromised and sticking Jews.

If anyone is on a student visa doing this, then they ought to be gone, ASAP. This is not free speech…
 
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