Your predictions for final Big 3 slam tally

El Dude

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In fairness, I don’t think anyone was trying to break Emersons record until Pete decided to. Borg could have sleepwalked by it if it was considered to be a thing back then, but as you know, it wasn’t…
The fact that Emerson held the record is one of several reasons why total Slams isn't everything. Emerson was about as good relative to Laver and Rosewall as Andy Murray was/is to Djokovic and Nadal.
 

El Dude

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Fiero loves this line of thinking, but I disagree. Murray's injury in early 2017 was elbow, I think. He's had hip issues since early 20s, by all accounts. I do not believe that Murray's hip issues were from making a run in the last months of 2016 and getting to #1. He has osteoarthritis. That takes a long time to become a problem.
Well, I said "arguably." But certainly he overplayed and wore his body down to the point that it never fully recovered, resulting in injury and surgery.
 
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Moxie

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Well, I said "arguably." But certainly he overplayed and wore his body down to the point that it never fully recovered, resulting in injury and surgery.
Dude, I was aiming at Fiero, who never stops saying that Murray blew himself out passing Novak at the end of 2016. But I still think you're wrong that that is the reason that he was going downhill, physically. He made the QF of Roland Garros in 2017, no territory for rough hips. The degeneration of the hips was coming to him for much of his tennis life. You can google it, but he had hip pain from his early 20s. Kuerten was done in by hip issues, as were Hewitt and Nalbandian. I doubt any of it comes down to a 3-month run of success. Yes, he was 78-9 on the year. But Novak was 82-6 the year before. Who's to say what is too many matches? Some people have long-term issues, some don't.
 

Moxie

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The fact that Emerson held the record is one of several reasons why total Slams isn't everything. Emerson was about as good relative to Laver and Rosewall as Andy Murray was/is to Djokovic and Nadal.
But this is a diversionary point. The Slams matter not just as a recency bias, but because they are the biggest test in the men's game. Not only are they considered the Gold Standard, they are basically the only place where men play 7 matches, and all best of 5. And right now, we're not comparing eras, we're talking about YE#1 this year, am I right? (Following the conversation between you and @Kieran.)

Two slams should make you at least a good argument for YE#1. I have no problem with the idea that it comes down to points.

However, I do think that the YEC should be Bo5, at least in SF and Fs, if it's going to be worth 1500 points, and considered above a MS1000.
 

Fiero425

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Dude, I was aiming at Fiero, who never stops saying that Murray blew himself out passing Novak at the end of 2016. But I still think you're wrong that that is the reason that he was going downhill, physically. He made the QF of Roland Garros in 2017, no territory for rough hips. The degeneration of the hips was coming to him for much of his tennis life. You can google it, but he had hip pain from his early 20s. Kuerten was done in by hip issues, as were Hewitt and Nalbandian. I doubt any of it comes down to a 3-month run of success. Yes, he was 78-9 on the year. But Novak was 82-6 the year before. Who's to say what is too many matches? Some people have long-term issues, some don't.

You should know better than to physically compare Novak to anyone else by now! Please! After he took care of that gluten and breathing issue early on, he's been almost a physical marvel only having a couple short stints of injuries that kept him from winning majors! His wife repeatedly tells people "Novak is tretching every free moment!" He did splits with the Olympic gynmast in Japan last year! I couldn't touch my toes as a teenager! (Worth saving to Blog) :fearful-face: :astonished-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth::face-with-tears-of-joy:
 

Moxie

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You should know better than to physically compare Novak to anyone else by now! Please! After he took care of that gluten and breathing issue early on, he's been almost a physical marvel only having a couple short stints of injuries that kept him from winning majors!
Right...almost a perfect physical specimen, except when he isn't? Got it.

His wife repeatedly tells people "Novak is tretching every free moment!"
I think you mean "kvetching."
He did splits with the Olympic gynmast in Japan last year! I couldn't touch my toes as a teenager! (Worth saving to Blog) :fearful-face: :astonished-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth::face-with-tears-of-joy:
All women can do the splits. And also Novak.
 

El Dude

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But this is a diversionary point. The Slams matter not just as a recency bias, but because they are the biggest test in the men's game. Not only are they considered the Gold Standard, they are basically the only place where men play 7 matches, and all best of 5. And right now, we're not comparing eras, we're talking about YE#1 this year, am I right? (Following the conversation between you and @Kieran.)

Two slams should make you at least a good argument for YE#1. I have no problem with the idea that it comes down to points.

However, I do think that the YEC should be Bo5, at least in SF and Fs, if it's going to be worth 1500 points, and considered above a MS1000.
I just get tired of the "Slams are everything" arguments. It is very common and enormously simplistic. Slams are obviously hugely important, but they're not everything. At most, I'd say they make up about 40-50% of a player's total resume. I think rankings are also hugely important, and may even be more indicative of a player's overall greatness (and don't worry - I'm thinking in terms of weeks at #2, 3, etc, as well! ;-).

More so I get irked with the endless partisan fan arguments - like one can't possibly think something without it being due to partisanship. It seems very little different than the political climate: you're either on Team Blue or Team Red; and if you're on neither, people of both teams think you're on the other team. I mean, who was the Federer fan who used to accuse me of being a secret Rafa or Novak fan, whenever I posted something that didn't imply that Roger was the GOAT?

But yes, I do agree that they are the big events, and I don't disagree at all that 2 Slams should get you in the running - and Rafa is in the running.

I also like the idea of the YEC being best of five - at least the final (and I also think the women's Slams should be best of five...one way that women match up well is in terms of endurance; I see no reason why they couldn't adjust to longer matches...but that's another issue). But I do think the points as they are make sense, because of how difficult the YEC is. In some ways it is the hardest tournament to win, because you literally have to beat four or five other top 8 players. Not an easy task.
 
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El Dude

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Dude, I was aiming at Fiero, who never stops saying that Murray blew himself out passing Novak at the end of 2016. But I still think you're wrong that that is the reason that he was going downhill, physically. He made the QF of Roland Garros in 2017, no territory for rough hips. The degeneration of the hips was coming to him for much of his tennis life. You can google it, but he had hip pain from his early 20s. Kuerten was done in by hip issues, as were Hewitt and Nalbandian. I doubt any of it comes down to a 3-month run of success. Yes, he was 78-9 on the year. But Novak was 82-6 the year before. Who's to say what is too many matches? Some people have long-term issues, some don't.
Yeah, I hear you. Maybe it is a false narrative. But it also seems seems more than just coincidence that he had his best year ever, then collapsed the next year. We can't know for sure, but I think 2016 might at least played a factor.
 
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Jelenafan

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Some of us don't follow partisan lines of thinking, Jelenafan, but thanks for lumping me in with your pejorative conception of "Federites." And no, I've never thought that most majors = GOAT.
Didn't mean to insult you personally, however it seems to me that emphasizing the importance of Majors started during the Sampras era and his efforts to overcome Emerson.

Federer and many of his fans rode that train hard. I do think, right or wrong the Majors have become the focal points of the tennis calender, much to the ATP’s chagrin.

If the Majors all weigh the same ( though i understand you disagree) then Slam total is a major factor.

On a side note, you mentioned in another thread how the top 3 French players in the post Open Era were Yannick Noah, Jo willfried Tsonga & Guy Forget. I considered posting that of all the top French players, Forget has the weakest Slam resume. His other stats IMO dont seem so overwhelming to negate that Cedric Pioline & Henri Leconte have far stronger career Slam stats. Forget had 2 Master titles to their 1 , so theres that. Its a matter of perception but that you de emphasize the Majors, and it seems some specifically ( the French) , doesnt mean that those who do take them into account are Slam obsessed to the point of ignoring everything else. 250 tournaments have their place i concede.

Weeks at Number 1 is a factor, but again, since tennis is on a sliding calender point system, ending the year #1 , even if you didn't have the most weeks that year, doesn’t negate you had the most points accumulated for that particular year. Tomatoe, tomato, and so forth.

Nadal13, like many Rafa fans, myself included, are enjoying Rafa at this point having the most Slams at 22. If that’s taking a “partisan” stance, i guess some of us plead guilty. However it seems the arguably perjorative “Slam obsessed” was aimed at a Nadal fan when , again, the irony isn't lost there.
 
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Fiero425

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I just get tired of the "Slams are everything" arguments. It is very common and enormously simplistic. Slams are obviously hugely important, but they're not everything. At most, I'd say they make up about 40-50% of a player's total resume. I think rankings are also hugely important, and may even be more indicative of a player's overall greatness (and don't worry - I'm thinking in terms of weeks at #2, 3, etc, as well! ;-).

More so I get irked with the endless partisan fan arguments - like one can't possibly think something without it being due to partisanship. It seems very little different than the political climate: you're either on Team Blue or Team Red; and if you're on neither, people of both teams think you're on the other team. I mean, who was the Federer fan who used to accuse me of being a secret Rafa or Novak fan, whenever I posted something that didn't imply that Roger was the GOAT?

But yes, I do agree that they are the big events, and I don't disagree at all that 2 Slams should get you in the running - and Rafa is in the running.

I also like the idea of the YEC being best of five - at least the final (and I also think the women's Slams should be best of five...one way that women match up well is in terms of endurance; I see no reason why they couldn't adjust to longer matches...but that's another issue). But I do think the points as they are make sense, because of how difficult the YEC is. In some ways it is the hardest tournament to win, because you literally have to beat four or five other top 8 players. Not an easy task.

I don't think majors should be the only metric when it comes to anointing the best players! Regardless of what anyone thinks, IMO Navratilova's the BOAT man or woman! You just can't beat her overall record and dominance! It's was just a shame she got a late start getting spoiled by American life! It took her longer to get where she wanted to be! For the men, Federer couldn't be denied, not just an ATG, but a measuring stick for the sport the way he took over the ranks so shortly after Pete retired! Unfortunately for him he was owned by 2 youngster and he hurt his legacy by hanging on too long! I already said adding those 3 extra majors wasn't worth seeing him flounder for years; esp. 2020! Even though he's not my fave to watch, Novak has all the records but majors and even that is negligable! My old self would have said Laver's record can't be beaten; esp. for the times as an Amateur & Pro, he did take 2 CYGS ('62 & '69)! Borg owned his era IMO; even though short! Then Sampras had his time, & I guess we have to give Roger a bone! But after all's been said and done, the record book is replete with Novak's name all over it in "Standalone" achievements! (End Rant) :fearful-face: :astonished-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth::face-with-tears-of-joy:
 

El Dude

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Didn't mean to insult you personally, however it seems to me that emphasizing the importance of Majors started during the Sampras era and his efforts to overcome Emerson.

Federer and many of his fans rode that train hard. I do think, right or wrong the Majors have become the focal points of the tennis calender, much to the ATP’s chagrin.

If the Majors all weigh the same ( though i understand you disagree) then Slam total is a major factor.

On a side note, you mentioned in another thread how the top 3 French players in the post Open Era were Yannick Noah, Jo willfried Tsonga & Guy Forget. I considered posting that of all the top French players, Forget has the weakest Slam resume. His other stats IMO dont seem so overwhelming to negate that Cedric Pioline & Henri Leconte have far stronger career Slam stats. Forget had 2 Master titles to their 1 , so theres that. Its a matter of perception but that you de emphasize the Majors, and it seems some specifically ( the French) , doesnt mean that those who do take them into account are Slam obsessed to the point of ignoring everything else. 250 tournaments have their place i concede.

Weeks at Number 1 is a factor, but again, since tennis is on a sliding calender point system, ending the year #1 , even if you didn't have the most weeks that year, doesn’t negate you had the most points accumulated for that particular year. Tomatoe, tomato, and so forth.

Nadal13, like many Rafa fans, myself included, are enjoying Rafa at this point having the most Slams at 22. If that’s taking a “partisan” stance, i guess some of us plead guilty. However it seems the arguably perjorative “Slam obsessed” was aimed at a Nadal fan when , again, the irony isn't lost there.
I don't begrudge you or other Rafa fans for enjoying Rafa having the most Slams - it is an amazing accomplishment, whether it holds or not. That's not what I'm talking about. And that comment wasn't aimed at a "Nadal fan" - it was at Kieran, and we're golden (ask him). I'm sure he wasn't offended. It was a bit of ribbing, and he took it in stride.

I find hyper-partisan fandom annoying and irrational, regardless of which player is the object of affection. As I mentioned to Moxie, I used to go at it with one Fed fanatic who thought I was a secret Rafa or Novak fan because I tried to approach Roger objectively, and was pointing out that Novak's record was becoming hard to deny as superior.

Oh, and I weigh the majors now of equal value. Certainly, Wimbledon is special in terms of historicity, but it is not harder or easier to win than the other Slams, and doesn't hold greater value, at least in the Open Era. The only exception to different weight imo (in the Open Era), is the AO pre mid-80s. Take a look at those fields that Kriek beat in the early 80s - they are easier than most ATP 500s today.

As far as rankings are concerned, what you point out is why I give weeks much greater value than year-end number one. In some ways, rankings are even more indicative of overall dominance and greatness than Slams, because they take into account everything. They highlight how a guy like Stan Wawrinka was a "limited great" - great in choice spots, but would tail off after the big moments. Andy Murray - also with 3 Slams - deservedly ranks much higher on all-time lists.

But your mention of rankings is a good example of why we can't just focus on just the cherry on top, the #1, but also need to look at #2, #3, top 5, etc. If #1 was all that mattered, we'd be faced with the idea that Djokovic was almost twice as good as Rafa - which is obviously absurd. I mean, if you have one player who had a five-year span in which he ranked 10, 1, 27, 48, and 92, and another who ranked 2, 3, 2, 2, 3, I think we can safely say that the latter player was probably better during that stretch, regardless of almost any other factor.

Similarly, ignoring Slam finalists...I mean, it is quite a feat to reach a Slam final, regardless of whether you win or not. That's why the ATP awards 2000 points for a win, 1200 for the runner up. Meaning, the ATP sees reaching a Slam Final as more valuable than anything other than winning it, or winning the YEC. One player went 7-0 and won when it mattered most, and should be lauded for it, but the other went 6-1, and may even have lost that final by a hair. History remembers the "W," not so much the runner-up...when the difference between the two might not be all that much.

In other words, when we talk about assessing and comparing players - their greatness - we need to look at more than just Slam hardware in their trophy case.

I know I'm going on too long, but here's one more analogy. Let's say you have a list of ranked criteria in dating someone (aside from the inaneness of such an approach to dating, but I don't want to get into that). Let's say your top priority is looks, then sense of humor, then intelligence, then height, then career, and on and on. A person might get an A grade in looks, but if you stop there, you miss the total picture of who they are, and whether or not they'd be a good match. If the top five factors of two people rate A, C, C-, D, D, and the other B, A, A, B+, B, who is going to be the better match for you? Maybe the first for a one-nighter, but who are you going to end up laughing with more, enjoying watching Netflix? Building a life with? Etc.

In that regard, Slam titles are the "top priority" - there is no doubt about that, but have to be weighed with a lot of other factors. Or to put it another way, Ilie Nastase was a much better player than Jan Kodes; and Vitas Gerulaitis was better than Johan Kriek, etc etc.
 
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Kieran

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The fact that Emerson held the record is one of several reasons why total Slams isn't everything. Emerson was about as good relative to Laver and Rosewall as Andy Murray was/is to Djokovic and Nadal.
Well, I never said the slams total is everything, but bear in mind that the slams are the only consistent measure of greatness we have in tennis. The MS titles weren’t even a big deal in Sampras time. I don’t know how many of them Pete won - or anybody won - until fanboys began to total them up as well, as evidence that their favourite was really the best of them all.

Some of the MS titles have vanished into dust, no longer among us, they’re pining for the fjords, gone to meet their maker, their metabolic processes are now history, they’ve kicked the bucket, shuffled off the mortal coil, joined the bleeding choir invisible! They are an ex-parrot. So though these were a measure of something in their day, they’re shagged out following a prolonged squawk.

Measures of greatness change from era to era, making an impossibility of there being a goat - but slams are perennial. In terms of season ending number 1, it’s generally the player who also did best in the slams. I remember in 2013 there was a flurry among Djokolytes that he might still finish number one that year, but it would only be a mere consolation prize if he had - the best player that year was Rafa. Andy got the consolation prize in 2016, but if Novak “choked” the last few weeks that, then better he choked them than that he choked in either Australia or Paris…
 
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El Dude

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Well, I never said the slams total is everything, but bear in mind that the slams are the only consistent measure of greatness we have in tennis. The MS titles weren’t even a big deal in Sampras time. I don’t know how many of them Pete won - or anybody won - until fanboys began to total them up as well, as evidence that their favourite was really the best of them all.

Some of the MS titles have vanished into dust, no longer among us, they’re pining for the fjords, gone to meet their maker, their metabolic processes are now history, they’ve kicked the bucket, shuffled off the mortal coil, joined the bleeding choir invisible! They are an ex-parrot. So though these were a measure of something in their day, they’re shagged out following a prolonged squawk.

Measures of greatness change from era to era, making an impossibility of there being a goat - but slams are perennial. In terms of season ending number 1, it’s generally the player who also did best in the slams. I remember in 2013 there was a flurry among Djokolytes that he might still finish number one that year, but it would only be a mere consolation prize if he had - the best player that year was Rafa. Andy got the consolation prize in 2016, but if Novak “choked” the last few weeks that, then better he choked them than that he choked in either Australia or Paris…
Good post, although here is where I would disagree: We DO have a consistent measure of greatness, but it isn't Slams. It is rankings. Rankings are consistent in that they measure whatever is valued at the time. The #1 player in any year is the top player in the game. And I'm not just talking about #1, but 2, 3, top 5, top 10.

Now they aren't perfect, mind you. A player can be the best player on tour, or even have the best "pound for pound" performance, but not finish #1. We've talked about examples of this. But overall, rankings are mostly consistent across time - at least since 1973 (and Ultimate Tennis Statistics gives us early Open Era rankings, so we can see that Rod Laver was the best player in 1968-71, and Nastase the best not only in 1973, the first year of the ATP rankings, but also 1972.

I wish we had the same for pre-Open Era. Tennis Base has such rankings, but they're behind a paywall. I think I have a chart for their rankings somewhere.
 

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Good post, although here is where I would disagree: We DO have a consistent measure of greatness, but it isn't Slams. It is rankings. Rankings are consistent in that , andthey measure whatever is valued at the time. The #1 player in any year is the top player in the game. And I'm not just talking about #1, but 2, 3, top 5, top 10.

Now they aren't perfect, mind you. A player can be the best player on tour, or even have the best "pound for pound" performance, but not finish #1. We've talked about examples of this. But overall, rankings are mostly consistent across time - at least since 1973 (and Ultimate Tennis Statistics gives us early Open Era rankings, so we can see that Rod Laver was the best player in 1968-71, and Nastase the best not only in 1973, the first year of the ATP rankings, but also 1972.

I wish we had the same for pre-Open Era. Tennis Base has such rankings, but they're behind a paywall. I think I have a chart for their rankings somewhere.
Well, we'll disagree on what a measure of greatness is because my first thought was that slams predate rankings significantly, but of course, against this, the slams were largely won by amateurs as a stepping stone to the professional game, where the better players were. Players have been ranked number one who haven't won majors and certainly aren't "great", but then so have players won slams who aren't great either. But we definitely disagree that the player who ends the season number 1 is definitively the best player of that year. Statistics may say that this is unarguable, but I'll never concede that Murray in 2016, McEnroe in 1982, Connors all them seasons where Borg was clearly the better player, were the best players in those years - you can win as many Pepsi Cola cups and IKEA trophies as you like to get to the top, but the best player is the one who does it most where it matters the most...
 
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El Dude

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Well, we'll disagree on what a measure of greatness is because my first thought was that slams predate rankings significantly, but of course, against this, the slams were largely won by amateurs as a stepping stone to the professional game, where the better players were. Players have been ranked number one who haven't won majors and certainly aren't "great", but then so have players won slams who aren't great either. But we definitely disagree that the player who ends the season number 1 is definitively the best player of that year.
But I didn't say that, Kieran. In fact, I said "A player can be the best player on tour, or even have the best "pound for pound" performance, but not finish #1."

I mean, look at 2017 - which you seem to pass by, for some strange reason! ;-) Federer was the best player that year, but finished #2 because he skipped clay, finishing just 1040 points behind Rafa, despite playing 21 fewer matches and 6 fewer tournaments. He won two of the three Slams he played, and 3 of the 4 Masters, and 7 of the 12 tournaments he played in. Oh, and he went 4-0 vs the YE #1, three of them in big finals.

Again, I'm not saying that YE1 is automatically the best player. As I think I said above, I'd guess that holds true about 90% of the time, give or take (though I'd have to do more research to stand by that estimate).

Statistics may say that this is unarguable, but I'll never concede that Murray in 2016, McEnroe in 1982, Connors all them seasons where Borg was clearly the better player, were the best players in those years - you can win as many Pepsi Cola cups and IKEA trophies as you like to get to the top, but the best player is the one who does it most where it matters the most...
I mostly agree with you, but think this is a bit simplistic and veers back into a kind of absolutism. And as I elaborated with Andy Murray in 2016, he didn't just win shitty tournaments to get to #1 - he won five straight, including two Masters and the WTF, all of which Novak played. So actually, you could argue that Andy did just what you asked: he won when it mattered the most.

The bottom line: Slams are very important, but they're not everything. They are the most important achievements in tennis history, but not a great indicator of overall greatness, at least not on their own. It isn't either/or, one thing and nothing else. It is looking at everything, and weighing it accordingly.

So for me, when I look at overall greatness, I consider different "tiers" of importance, something like:

Tier 1: Slam titles, #1 ranking
Tier 2: Other big titles, Slam Finals, #2-5 rankings
Tier 3: Lesser titles, Slam QF/SF, top 10 rankings, other factors (e.g. W-L record, H2Hs, etc)

I could get more granular, but that's the gist of it.
 
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Kieran

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But I didn't say that, Kieran. In fact, I said "A player can be the best player on tour, or even have the best "pound for pound" performance, but not finish #1."

Oh man, we agree all along? How did I take such a wrong turn in life? The only occasions where the best player didn’t finish number one after the ones I mentioned, and I thought of 2017 but didn’t need to mention it because my point was made elsewhere…
 

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Well, we'll disagree on what a measure of greatness is because my first thought was that slams predate rankings significantly, but of course, against this, the slams were largely won by amateurs as a stepping stone to the professional game, where the better players were. Players have been ranked number one who haven't won majors and certainly aren't "great", but then so have players won slams who aren't great either. But we definitely disagree that the player who ends the season number 1 is definitively the best player of that year. Statistics may say that this is unarguable, but I'll never concede that Murray in 2016, McEnroe in 1982, Connors all them seasons where Borg was clearly the better player, were the best players in those years - you can win as many Pepsi Cola cups and IKEA trophies as you like to get to the top, but the best player is the one who does it most where it matters the most...
Now wait a second--I love me some Borg, but Connors was officially top dog five straight years. I could give 1978 to Borg so he would have three straight and Connors the four before that--even though they bashed each other in straight sets in the two biggest events since Borg also won Paris. McEnroe in 1982 was unbelievable since Connors won the two biggest majors of the year and beat Johnny in one of them. For the reasons expressed by El Dude it was clear as day to me that Roger was top guy in 2017 and Rafa second, even though they split the majors, for obvious reasons. But, the rankings system has its value and certainly it "gets" the top players right if not always in perfect order.
 

El Dude

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Points
113
Now wait a second--I love me some Borg, but Connors was officially top dog five straight years. I could give 1978 to Borg so he would have three straight and Connors the four before that--even though they bashed each other in straight sets in the two biggest events since Borg also won Paris. McEnroe in 1982 was unbelievable since Connors won the two biggest majors of the year and beat Johnny in one of them. For the reasons expressed by El Dude it was clear as day to me that Roger was top guy in 2017 and Rafa second, even though they split the majors, for obvious reasons. But, the rankings system has its value and certainly it "gets" the top players right if not always in perfect order.
Always a fun topic to revisit.

By my Premier Event Points system, Connors was #1 in 1974 and '76...that's all. Vilas gets '77, which people widely agree he was robbed on, and Borg gets '75 and '78-80.

But 1982 is interesting, because PEP loves Lendl that year (he's at 43, Connors at 40, McEnroe at 31). Compare their titles in GS/Tour Finals/Masters equiv/ATP 500 equiv/ATP 250 equiv:

Lendl (43 PEP): 0/2/3/3/7
Connors (40 PEP): 2/0/1/2/2
McEnroe (31 PEP): 0/0/2/1/1

SO it is kind of crazy that McEnroe was #1, when Connors had more Slams and Lendl had more titles overall (a whopping 15, including both Tour Finals and 3 Masters). McEnroe received a lot of points through going deep almost everything: A Slam SF and F, both Tour Finals finals. But still, he was the third best player that year.

Even when I add an adjustment for quality of play - basically win percentage - the order is still Lendl (54), Connors (49), and McEnroe third (41).
 
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