US Politics Thread

Kieran

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had to laugh!


Absolutely. Only women can speak about abortion, and at the same time men are welcome to call themselves women, because the definition of a woman is “somebody who identifies as a woman.”

I know women are confusing creatures but this is too much!! :lulz1::lol6:
 

Kieran

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considering Mandelson's political history on the left, this is a particularly interesting Op-Ed piece...
Yeah, it’s quite practical and opposed to the posturing we see from a lot of impotent and frightened NATO members. I was surprised by that article, thanks!
 

Kieran

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This is probably going to sum up Mamdani’s term as mayor of New York. Like a trolley with a squeaky wheel, one of his property appointees has claimed that home ownership by white people is racist, and then was last seen running back into her home in tears after being cornered with questions about her parents $1.4m house.

Zero self-awareness, zero understanding of life, just an “activist” with a hatred of the usual this these people hate - and Mamdani thought it was a good idea to give her a job.

NYC mayoral aide Cea Weaver who says whites owning houses is racist bursts into TEARS when asked about her mother's $1.4m Craftsman home

 
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Kieran

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This is both tragic and emblematic of the mindset of naive (?) indoctrinated so-called activists. She’s trying to stop ICE doing their job, and she gets killed. It’s tragic obviously for her and her loved ones, and also for the law enforcement agent she hit with the car, whose difficult day began no doubt with the hope that he could do his job without something like this happening.

But why does she think she’s entitled to stop law enforcement officers from doing their job? Why did she refuse to obey their orders? This is kind of like the Karen “watcher” a couple of weeks ago, who got forced to the ground and taken away. And the dilettante girl following an ICE car, for her own devious purpose, and was then threatened without ceremony that if she continued to follow them, she’d be dragged from the car.

She thought this impolite, but actually it’s their job. They’re not going to let a silly person get them killed.

 
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Moxie

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This is both tragic and emblematic of the mindset of naive (?) indoctrinated so-called activists. She’s trying to stop ICE doing their job, and she gets killed. It’s tragic obviously for her and her loved ones, and also for the law enforcement agent she hit with the car, whose difficult day began no doubt with the hope that he could do his job without something like this happening.

But why does she think she’s entitled to stop law enforcement officers from doing their job? Why did she refuse to obey their orders? This is kind of like the Karen “watcher” a couple of weeks ago, who got forced to the ground and taken away. And the dilettante girl following an ICE car, for her own devious purpose, and was then threatened without ceremony that if she continued to follow them, she’d be dragged from the car.

She thought this impolite, but actually it’s their job. They’re not going to let a silly person get them killed.


Instead of some random guy narrating a couple of videos he found on the internet, try this one which shows all angles, with someone from the NYTimes discussing it. I hope this is free to share:

 
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Kieran

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Instead of some random guy narrating a couple of videos he found on the internet, try this one which shows all angles, with someone from the NYTimes discussing it. I hope this is free to share:


Yeah, the NYT isn’t exactly a recommendation of honest or unbiased reporting, and the video they show is the same one “some random guy” showed, and it’s the same outcome, just the random NYT guy gave us the party line.

However, the officer was on the ground working, despite this woman and others deciding they should get in the way. Seriously, what’s wrong with these people?
 

Federberg

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Yeah, the NYT isn’t exactly a recommendation of honest or unbiased reporting, and the video they show is the same one “some random guy” showed, and it’s the same outcome, just the random NYT guy gave us the party line.

However, the officer was on the ground working, despite this woman and others deciding they should get in the way. Seriously, what’s wrong with these people?
I haven't paid much attention to this, but I have to agree here, NYT has completely lost it's credibility as a news source. Completely! If they told me the sky was blue I would question it at this point! Funnily enough here's another discredited news source...



PS, I've said it before but I'll say it again... the Amber Heard thing destroyed the credibility of the NYT for me. And they've not done themselves any favours with the nonsense they pulled off on behalf of Blake Lively against Justin Baldoni. I'm DONE with them...
 
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Kieran

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I haven't paid much attention to this, but I have to agree here, NYT has completely lost it's credibility as a news source. Completely! If they told me the sky was blue I would question it at this point! Funnily enough here's another discredited news source...



PS, I've said it before but I'll say it again... the Amber Heard thing destroyed the credibility of the NYT for me. And they've not done themselves any favours with the nonsense they pulled off on behalf of Blake Lively against Justin Baldoni. I'm DONE with them...

I got a shot of the vaccine cos the NYT published an article saying it would provide long lasting protection for years and you might even need a booster shot: that stayed true for five seconds.

The NYT and the BBC are sharing a journey: once reliable liberal news sources that are now left wing and untrustworthy…
 

mrzz

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Instead of some random guy narrating a couple of videos he found on the internet, try this one which shows all angles, with someone from the NYTimes discussing it. I hope this is free to share:


Moxie dear, sorry. I watched a lot of different videos myself, from different angles. Anyone can do that, possibly a lot of journalists did. One thing becomes clear: the woman shot accelerated her car while the officer was standing in front of it. This is undisputable. There is no nuance to this.

Now, would the world be better if the agent had not fired his weapon? For sure it would be. What I would I do in his shoes? I do not know. He had his gun pointed to the inside of the vehicle before he was struck by it (that the car hit the agent is also clear to see in different angles, contrary to what CNN, the fact checker of the world, says).

Should the agents have approached the whole situation differently? I would guess so. But we do not know the context. We do not know what this person did before that. She was deliberately obstructing the street with her vehicle. She was confrontational. People and press can say whatever they want about her, that she was lovely, that she was a poet, bla bla bla. What is registered in video is that she deliberately seek for confrontation, and that she drove her car into a person. She was, in that occasion, being violent. There is zero doubt about that.

Unfortunately, now my point in the discussion we had about a previous video, were agents tell those two teenagers (or teenage minded people) that the next time they would force they out of their car becomes clear: The present outcome is what those guys were preventing.

And from now on here we go again with the narratives thing. Most people will adhere to a "narrative" without even looking at the videos. I bet most people are forming their opinion just looking at the more popular one, in which you cannot barely see the agent that fired the shot. People probably think that the agent who tried to opened the door is the one who shot. Again, journalists and politicians know better, but they stick to their "narratives" anyway.

So, instead of this preventable death leading to meaningful discussions, like what should be the agents conduct, and should civilians organize to disrupt federal agencies enforcing the law, the conversation will orbit around the "narratives", which is exactly what the video you posted does.

Again, when the underlying issues (in this case, immigration) are not settled, violent outcomes are the most likely consequence. The US chose to live in this schizophrenic relation with the immigration issue. Now it is paying the price.
 
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Federberg

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Are there any mainstream news sources you do trust?
that's a tough question mate. I think these days I'm forced to look at multiple sources of news. Re: the NYT, when they do their deep research pieces they're still probably the best newspaper in the world. That stuff is deep and very well researched, with proper journalists. The problem is that there's far too much ideological capture in their day to day stuff now. And don't get me started on their social media people, that lot are on the same level as enemy counter-intelligence agents in my view. Spewing poison... wilfully!
 
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britbox

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that's a tough question mate. I think these days I'm forced to look at multiple sources of news. Re: the NYT, when they do their deep research pieces they're still probably the best newspaper in the world. That stuff is deep and very well researched, with proper journalists. The problem is that there's far too much ideological capture in their day to day stuff now. And don't get me started on their social media people, that lot is on the same level as enemy counter-intelligence agents in my view. Spewing poison... wilfully!
Some of the best writers IMO are independents on Substack. However, with Substack you have to disassociate the name "Substack" as an umbrella publisher because there is an awful lot of crap on there too. But there are some incredibly well researched series - I won't even call them articles - because you can have 6-10 part series that go into incredible depth on all manner of topics.

The world is fragmenting. If the NYT told me about happenings in Kiev (for example) - I'd ask somebody who lived there rather than take their word for it. The media of the future will be real people on the ground, not media conglomerates with vested interests.
 
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Federberg

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Some of the best writers IMO are independents on Substack. However, with Substack you have to disassociate the name "Substack" as an umbrella publisher because there is an awful lot of crap on there too. But there are some incredibly well researched series - I won't even call them articles - because you can have 6-10 part series that go into incredible depth on all manner of topics.

The world is fragmenting. If the NYT told me about happenings in Kiev (for example) - I'd ask somebody who lived there rather than take their word for it. The media of the future will be real people on the ground, not media conglomerates with vested interests.
oh I completely agree. Substack is one of my "multiple" sources
 

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Not making any judgements... I believe the woman shouldn't have died in that interaction. To me it's all about managing risks. Here's how you do it..



Now can you imagine someone else getting angry, arguing that they present no threat because of their injury? Just saying... I've had an AK 47 pointed at me at a military stop, for no reason at all. Did I argue, I shut my pie-hole up and did what I was told. For the life of my I don't understand why that's so difficult
 
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Moxie

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Moxie dear, sorry. I watched a lot of different videos myself, from different angles. Anyone can do that, possibly a lot of journalists did. One thing becomes clear: the woman shot accelerated her car while the officer was standing in front of it. This is undisputable. There is no nuance to this.
Mrzz, my dear, I don't think you watched the video & narration I posted. I also don't think what you say above is "indisputable," and that there is no "nuance."

The woman was approached by officer A, at the driver's side window, yelled at, then he reached into her car. At the same time, this was being filmed by officer B, from right rear side of her car. He walked along the right side of her car, around the front, and ended up at off the left front of her car. He was not smack in front of her car, you have to admit that. She then reversed the car and turned the wheels to the right, as if to pull away. It would be understandable if she were trying to get away from the officer who is yelling at her and reaching at her, that being officer A, and actually fully preoccupied with him. It's possible she did not see officer B. When she pulled forward, with some speed for sure, Officer B drew his gun. It is difficult to see the timing of when he fired the first shot, and when she hit him, but you have to admit it was a pretty glancing blow, as he was clearly unharmed, you see later in the videos. He might have been able to step back and avoid it, if he hadn't been so intent on shooting at her. He was also close enough to not have aimed at her head.

You see Officer B walk to her car, after it crashed, then walk back towards the other officers, with no hurry, and say calmly, "call 911." You can see he is unharmed.

I have also heard in 2 other reports that she had just come from dropping off her 6-year-old. It is possible that she simply found herself on that street, and had nothing to do with the protesters/observers. In the beginning of the first video that I posted, you can see that she initially seemed to be attempting a left turn, as if deciding to get out of the middle of this mess. She seems to be signaling a left turn, with wheels turned left, and is waiting for passing traffic, when she is yelled at by Officer A, and stopped.

So, there is nuance here. And yes, in any case, it definitely seems like excessive force, to me. The woman is dead. And no matter how fast she may have been trying to get away from that cop, A, there is only so much speed you can get from a dead stop, and Officer B was right at her front left fender, so she wouldn't have hit him with much force, and clearly didn't.
Now, would the world be better if the agent had not fired his weapon? For sure it would be. What I would I do in his shoes? I do not know. He had his gun pointed to the inside of the vehicle before he was struck by it (that the car hit the agent is also clear to see in different angles, contrary to what CNN, the fact checker of the world, says).

Should the agents have approached the whole situation differently? I would guess so. But we do not know the context. We do not know what this person did before that. She was deliberately obstructing the street with her vehicle. She was confrontational. People and press can say whatever they want about her, that she was lovely, that she was a poet, bla bla bla. What is registered in video is that she deliberately seek for confrontation, and that she drove her car into a person. She was, in that occasion, being violent. There is zero doubt about that.

Unfortunately, now my point in the discussion we had about a previous video, were agents tell those two teenagers (or teenage minded people) that the next time they would force they out of their car becomes clear: The present outcome is what those guys were preventing.

And from now on here we go again with the narratives thing. Most people will adhere to a "narrative" without even looking at the videos. I bet most people are forming their opinion just looking at the more popular one, in which you cannot barely see the agent that fired the shot. People probably think that the agent who tried to opened the door is the one who shot. Again, journalists and politicians know better, but they stick to their "narratives" anyway.

So, instead of this preventable death leading to meaningful discussions, like what should be the agents conduct, and should civilians organize to disrupt federal agencies enforcing the law, the conversation will orbit around the "narratives", which is exactly what the video you posted does.

Again, when the underlying issues (in this case, immigration) are not settled, violent outcomes are the most likely consequence. The US chose to live in this schizophrenic relation with the immigration issue. Now it is paying the price.
I do agree that most people, and certainly Noem, Vance and Trump are sticking with their narratives, even before they know the full story. They are also trying to keep local law enforcement from the investigation, which is not normal in the case of homicide, it has been widely explained.
 

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It would be understandable if she were trying to get away from the officer who is yelling at her and reaching at her, that being officer A, and actually fully preoccupied with him.
I agree with most of what you say. At this stage it's unfair to impute, like Vance did, that she's some sort of activist. But... where I have to disagree with you is that sentence I highlighted...there's simply no reason or sense to try to get away from those officers. These aren't police officers who at least should have some de-escalation training. What was she thinking?? Please... I want to be clear... I don't think shooting at her was necessary. To me this is about assessing risk. Did she think she would be able to drive away quickly enough to outrun bullets?? That was... silly and tragic. If what we see is accurate, then... to me.. that was an excessive and unnecessary use of force. But I don't have the energy to look at it from a legal or even moral perspective. Trying to drive away was about as stupid a thing to do as I can imagine. All I can do is shake my head. I hope others learn from this. On the street activism isn't the way to go about this. Organise, vote, de-fang the Trump administration, and make it clear that those who are complicit, whether ICE or military will get a day in court at some point. With that in mind, what Ted Lue said at that press conference is absolutely on point. Do what you want to now... but know that the law will come for you eventually
 

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It's possible she did not see officer B. When she pulled forward, with some speed for sure, Officer B drew his gun. It is difficult to see the timing of when he fired the first shot, and when she hit him, but you have to admit it was a pretty glancing blow, as he was clearly unharmed, you see later in the videos.
It is possible that she did not see officer B, yes. But he was in the front of the car all along, even before she went backwards (a bit more to the right of her, but surely still in her sight). In one video is very clear that he is hit reasonably hard and that he fires his gun after he is hit. If it is possible that she did not see him, it is also possible that he fired his gun as the natural reflex of being hit by a car (which is a way more reasonable suposition, by the way), which would make it all a very sad coincidence.

Not sure how unharmed he was, we can see him walkin straight, but he did take a blow strong enough push him back quite hard.

But, again, there is zero doubt that she did drove over the officer, and there is zero doubt that she hit him.
He might have been able to step back and avoid it, if he hadn't been so intent on shooting at her. He was also close enough to not have aimed at her head.
This is speculation. Again, he fired after being hit. It was monster bad luck that he hit her in the head. From all the multiple videos of police approaches in the US, it seems that once officers draw their weapons, it is pretty common that they aim them at the people involved. Sounds harsh, yes, but again, if that is a problem, change the procedure, don't blame the people following it.

She seems to be signaling a left turn, with wheels turned left, and is waiting for passing traffic, when she is yelled at by Officer A, and stopped.

Why is she with the car in the middle of the road in that position? There is no other street that she could have come from. There could be a lot of different explanations, but the most obvious one is that she deliberately trying to block their passage. People were already filming what was going on. The person filming the most popular video is screaming like crazy before the shooting. Sorry, this people know what they are doing. They are fighting a guerrilla war against ICE. Whoever asked them to join this war probably made a very good case, and most likely forgot to mention that war has casualties.

Edit: New video emerged and confirmed she could see the agent.
 
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Moxie

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I agree with most of what you say. At this stage it's unfair to impute, like Vance did, that she's some sort of activist. But... where I have to disagree with you is that sentence I highlighted...there's simply no reason or sense to try to get away from those officers. These aren't police officers who at least should have some de-escalation training. What was she thinking?? Please... I want to be clear... I don't think shooting at her was necessary. To me this is about assessing risk. Did she think she would be able to drive away quickly enough to outrun bullets?? That was... silly and tragic. If what we see is accurate, then... to me.. that was an excessive and unnecessary use of force. But I don't have the energy to look at it from a legal or even moral perspective. Trying to drive away was about as stupid a thing to do as I can imagine. All I can do is shake my head. I hope others learn from this. On the street activism isn't the way to go about this. Organise, vote, de-fang the Trump administration, and make it clear that those who are complicit, whether ICE or military will get a day in court at some point. With that in mind, what Ted Lue said at that press conference is absolutely on point. Do what you want to now... but know that the law will come for you eventually
I said it would be understandable if she wanted to get away from the officer who was yelling at her and reaching into her car as an instinctive reaction. I don't know that it's fair to expect complete logic, or to apply what you consider a terrible choice, in hindsight. What I'm saying is, don't blame her for what happened. Since you think it's unfair to assume that she was necessarily an activist, what if she was a completely innocent person who fell into an overheated situation. A lot of people in this country are still going to think that the cops won't just shoot them for no reason. (Though, that thinking will likely have changed now.)

I appreciate your agreeing with most of what I posted, anyway. I do recognize that there is more to be known than we know now. I fear that if the Feds control the entire investigation, there will be a whitewash. I don't think, whatever she was intending by being there, that she "weaponized" her car, as Noem contends. It seems clear she was attempting to flee the situation, however ill-advised that was.

I understand if you don't agree with the actions of locals who make noise when ICE is in the neighborhood, and they come to film it. I still agree with non-violent opposition. Any effort to engage ICE is clearly dangerous, though, and I hope people do learn from this.

As to a press conference by "Ted Lue", I don't know what you're referring to. Even if you mean Ted Lieu, of CA, I still find nothing. Maybe you can post a link.
 
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