US Open Final: Novak Djokovic v Stan Wawrinka

[brokenshoelace]

PS: I'm still not a Stan fan.

He's alright.

He rubs me the wrong way but I'll admit it's irrational as I can't pinpoint a reason as to why. The whole leaving his family thing does not concern me and I find it insane how some (not saying you) jumped at him for that since we have no idea what went on and we should all be wise enough to understand how complex these things are and there's no one who really knows what's the deal aside from the two involved parties.

That said, the pointing to the head thing is fucking obnoxious and so forced. I hope he cuts that shit off.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Congrats to Stan. it's insane that he has now won 3 out of 4 slams. That's incredible and nobody could have predicted that.

However, I actually didn't think this was a typical case of him being on fire to where there was nothing Novak can do (like say, the FO final last year). I actually thought that while he played well, Stan didn't red-line his game, which is what you think would have needed to happen for him to beat Novak. In a way, that's just as impressive, and a sign of him becoming truly elite, as he's not someone who needs to have an unusually hot day to win.

But, when you look at how he was hitting his groundies, you can see something is a touch off. The forehand in particular, lacked direction. You could see so many instances where it looked like he had a forehand lined up down the line, and he hit it almost to the middle. He has enough power and depth to where it ends up being a really good rally shot, but those are the kind of shots he would normally convert for a clean winner. The backhand wasn't as hot as it normally can get either, and you can visibly see him holding back a bit on some mid court backhands that he would usually destroy because he wasn't completely feeling it.

Of course, I'm nit-picking, as you could also spot some insane winners that he hit. But the reason I bring this up is two-fold:

1) Stan played a smart match and wasn't in pure shotmaking mode. Specifically, his usage of the cross court sliced backhand to Novak's own backhand, knowing that Novak just doesn't muster up quality replies to that shot. It's something Federer has had success with in the past against Novak, and even Del Potro recently.

2) Novak was really disappointing in his tactical approach and his inability to adapt. He let Stan get away with way too many harmless chipped backhand returns, and instead of punishing them by running around his backhand (something Federer and Nadal do better than anyone. They destroy the slice), he just pushed the ball back with a cross court backhand and the rallies were basically neutralized, which as a server, is not what you're typically looking for.

Another thing that stands out to me is that Novak, despite having so much success against Stan historically (as in their overall h2h), gets really tentative when Stan plays well in these big matches. He finds it easier to defend out of his mind and hit incredible shots from unlikely positions (and he didn't do enough of that last night) than to actually take control of the point and move Stan around, which is what he normally does so well. Part of it I think has to do with intimidation. I really think Stan's game intimidates Novak when he finds his groove, especially Stan's own ability to hit some insanely powerful shots even when it looks like Novak has the ascendancy in the rallies. Novak is a bit afraid to fight fire with fire with Stan as he believes that's Stan's game. That's understandable, but Novak's inability to come up with an alternative isn't.

 

[Mastoor]

No1e's loss is a huge disappointment though with Becker in his box you wouldn't expect Novak to win against Wawrinka. Everyone on this planet knew that Novak can't be this passive against Wawrinka, but it was Becker's job to set Novak's mind right and he failed in that yet again. Horrible. it is 1-3 in slams since Becker joined, before that Wawrinka was Novak pigeon ever since 2006 when he had that panic attack during Umag final. As if Becker coming to the team in early 2014 revamped old Novak's fears from Wawrinka.

I wasn't sure where all those ailments come from and even the nails falling off considering Novak barely played 12 matches since winning Roland Garros, as many as Wawrinka. If No1e doesn't recover quickly both physically and mentally and there's only 3 weeks till China, this won't be the end of bad news for No1e and his fans, because he will be likely to lose his #1 before the end of the year.

However, the most impressive thing about Novak is that he actually makes good friends with his rivals and he helps them and it comes back to him when they beat him in important matches. This is very strange in a competitive environment like tennis. Most of other tennis superstars I saw from Borg and Connors to Federer and Nadal, came across as self-centered egoists who wouldn't befriend their rivals unless perhaps joining them occasionally as doubles partners or for Davis Cup or for an exhibition.. Novak on the other hand, when he lost in Rio, which meant world to him, not to me, was mentioned by Delpo in an interview as the very guy who helped him through most difficult times and deserved for Delpo not giving up his career. When he lost this final to Wawrinka, Stan said how Novak is deserved that he is a multiple slam champion, without him he wouldn't be where he is.

Normally, you'd have absolute admiration for someone who is such a huge friend to his colleagues, but nice guys don't make grand slam champions. It is as simple as that, so I think we should be happy he won 12 of them, because like his friendship costed him several slams he didn't win, they could have likely costed him those 12 he won too.

 

[Moxie]

Sounds like you're saying that Novak lost because Becker is crap and Novak is too nice a guy. Do you think he's soft on opponents? I'm sorry your guy lost, Mastoor, but most people think that Becker has been a boon, in general. I thought they have been a good fit. (However, no one believes the bit about his toenails, fyi.)

 

[DarthFed]

No1e's loss is a huge disappointment though with Becker in his box you wouldn't expect Novak to win against Wawrinka. Everyone on this planet knew that Novak can't be this passive against Wawrinka, but it was Becker's job to set Novak's mind right and he failed in that yet again. Horrible. it is 1-3 in slams since Becker joined, before that Wawrinka was Novak pigeon ever since 2006 when he had that panic attack during Umag final. As if Becker coming to the team in early 2014 revamped old Novak's fears from Wawrinka.

I wasn't sure where all those ailments come from and even the nails falling off considering Novak barely played 12 matches since winning Roland Garros, as many as Wawrinka. If No1e doesn't recover quickly both physically and mentally and there's only 3 weeks till China, this won't be the end of bad news for No1e and his fans, because he will be likely to lose his #1 before the end of the year.

However, the most impressive thing about Novak is that he actually makes good friends with his rivals and he helps them and it comes back to him when they beat him in important matches. This is very strange in a competitive environment like tennis. Most of other tennis superstars I saw from Borg and Connors to Federer and Nadal, came across as self-centered egoists who wouldn't befriend their rivals unless perhaps joining them occasionally as doubles partners or for Davis Cup or for an exhibition.. Novak on the other hand, when he lost in Rio, which meant world to him, not to me, was mentioned by Delpo in an interview as the very guy who helped him through most difficult times and deserved for Delpo not giving up his career. When he lost this final to Wawrinka, Stan said how Novak is deserved that he is a multiple slam champion, without him he wouldn't be where he is.

Normally, you'd have absolute admiration for someone who is such a huge friend to his colleagues, but nice guys don't make grand slam champions. It is as simple as that, so I think we should be happy he won 12 of them, because like his friendship costed him several slams he didn't win, they could have likely costed him those 12 he won too.

I actually agree with a lot of this, that Nole is a very unique athlete in how friendly he is with his rivals. Most people like that are not at the top of their field because they lack the killer instinct. Personally I can't picture myself being friendly with Stan if I was Nole. I'd find 3 big reasons to hate the SOB and fuel my fire when I go up against him. The same can be said with his rivalries with Fed, Rafa, and Murray. And Mastoor may be right that this demeanor has hurt Novak but even with it he is still a legendary player.

 

[brokenshoelace]

No1e's loss is a huge disappointment though with Becker in his box you wouldn't expect Novak to win against Wawrinka. Everyone on this planet knew that Novak can't be this passive against Wawrinka, but it was Becker's job to set Novak's mind right and he failed in that yet again. Horrible. it is 1-3 in slams since Becker joined, before that Wawrinka was Novak pigeon ever since 2006 when he had that panic attack during Umag final. As if Becker coming to the team in early 2014 revamped old Novak's fears from Wawrinka.

I wasn't sure where all those ailments come from and even the nails falling off considering Novak barely played 12 matches since winning Roland Garros, as many as Wawrinka. If No1e doesn't recover quickly both physically and mentally and there's only 3 weeks till China, this won't be the end of bad news for No1e and his fans, because he will be likely to lose his #1 before the end of the year.

However, the most impressive thing about Novak is that he actually makes good friends with his rivals and he helps them and it comes back to him when they beat him in important matches. This is very strange in a competitive environment like tennis. Most of other tennis superstars I saw from Borg and Connors to Federer and Nadal, came across as self-centered egoists who wouldn't befriend their rivals unless perhaps joining them occasionally as doubles partners or for Davis Cup or for an exhibition.. Novak on the other hand, when he lost in Rio, which meant world to him, not to me, was mentioned by Delpo in an interview as the very guy who helped him through most difficult times and deserved for Delpo not giving up his career. When he lost this final to Wawrinka, Stan said how Novak is deserved that he is a multiple slam champion, without him he wouldn't be where he is.

Normally, you'd have absolute admiration for someone who is such a huge friend to his colleagues, but nice guys don't make grand slam champions. It is as simple as that, so I think we should be happy he won 12 of them, because like his friendship costed him several slams he didn't win, they could have likely costed him those 12 he won too.

Normal fandom emotion aside (and I'm not criticizing at all, just pointing it out), I actually agree with a lot of this. It's a bit hyperbolic at times (Novak is a double digit slam champion, nice guy or not) but the crux of it is accurate.

 

[mrzz]

That said, the pointing to the head thing is fucking obnoxious and so forced. I hope he cuts that shit off.

The funny thing is that, at least two times in the final, he did that just after an insane winner that was, well, insane. Those were fantastic shots, maybe no one else in the world could hit them, but the last thing I would use to describe them, or the whole point construction in question, is "wise", "clever", or "intelligent". Well, maybe he thought ´hmmm, I´ll play it in some way that after 10 shots I am 3 feet behind the baseline, out of balance and out of position, and then I´ll fire an absurd DTL backhand. He will never know what hit him..."

 

[Billie]

(However, no one believes the bit about his toenails, fyi.)

Vajda said they have to take his nail off and the injury is serious. But he didn't break his leg, which would be the only excuse you would allow him, perhaps.

 

[Moxie]

Vajda said they have to take his nail off and the injury is serious. But he didn't break his leg, which would be the only excuse you would allow him, perhaps.

Oh, come on. I saw those toes in close-up. There wasn't even a blister. No black toenail, no bleeding. And I've lost 4-5 toenails from running. It's not that serious. It hurts, until it falls off, or you relieve the pressure under the nail, that's all. I can do that myself, without million dollar physio support. As I said before, I don't think anyone believes that injury was serious. He was cramping, and he needed a break. Even you said you hoped he was cramping, v. groin injury. No groin injury, so he was cramping. He invented a sore toe for the break he needed. That's all. There really isn't any other explanation. It's not a heinous crime, but don't pretend it isn't what it is.

 

[Billie]

They wouldn't treat him if there wasn't an injury. ATP trainers can refuse it, as we saw it in this tournament. I get it, only Nadal's injuries are valid.

 

[Carol]

They wouldn't treat him if there wasn't an injury. ATP trainers can refuse it, as we saw it in this tournament. I get it, only Nadal's injuries are valid.

Yep, Nadal's injuries are valid, look how many times and months he has been out of the courts. Believe me, I wish those injuries would have been fake, he wouldn't have missed many GS like RG, Wimbledon, USO and AO and more than once

 

[Moxie]

They wouldn't treat him if there wasn't an injury. ATP trainers can refuse it, as we saw it in this tournament. I get it, only Nadal's injuries are valid.

No reason to be snippy. They treat injuries when they are called for. They won't treat cramping, which Novak was obviously suffering from. If it was groin, he'd have called the trainer immediately. Everyone questioned why he didn't. When he didn't, it was assumed to be cramping. That's conditioning. ESPN put a big close-up on his toes, and there was nothing to be seen. If his toenail had been falling off, he wouldn't have been able to run, without it ripping off the quick. Then he wouldn't have been able to run, at all. I think we'd have seen the trainer cutting off parts of his toenail, if it had been a dead-toenail issue. Otherwise, he just needed a break.

 

[Backhand_DTL]

I actually agree with a lot of this, that Nole is a very unique athlete in how friendly he is with his rivals. Most people like that are not at the top of their field because they lack the killer instinct. Personally I can't picture myself being friendly with Stan if I was Nole. I'd find 3 big reasons to hate the SOB and fuel my fire when I go up against him. The same can be said with his rivalries with Fed, Rafa, and Murray. And Mastoor may be right that this demeanor has hurt Novak but even with it he is still a legendary player.

Novak always seemed like he enjoys winning more than he hates losing. And while he is a perfectionist who holds himself to very high standards he often seems genuinely happy for the winner and there are never ill feelings to the player who defeated him. I think he even said something along the lines that after the final of the French Open last year his relationship with Stan got better as he felt a connection with him in the way they competed. Stan, Delpo and maybe Cilic are probably the top players he really has great relationships with and he seems friendly with basically everybody else. Only with Roger, although it looks like they are OK with each other in recent years, there's still some tension between them because of the things that happened when Novak came up.

It's possible that this character trait hurts him a bit as a competitor but as a person it's certainly a good quality to have.

 

[britbox]

No reason to be snippy. They treat injuries when they are called for. They won't treat cramping, which Novak was obviously suffering from. If it was groin, he'd have called the trainer immediately. Everyone questioned why he didn't. When he didn't, it was assumed to be cramping. That's conditioning. ESPN put a big close-up on his toes, and there was nothing to be seen. If his toenail had been falling off, he wouldn't have been able to run, without it ripping off the quick. Then he wouldn't have been able to run, at all. I think we'd have seen the trainer cutting off parts of his toenail, if it had been a dead-toenail issue. Otherwise, he just needed a break.

I thought I saw blood on the toe?

 

[Federberg]

Normal fandom emotion aside (and I'm not criticizing at all, just pointing it out), I actually agree with a lot of this. It's a bit hyperbolic at times (Novak is a double digit slam champion, nice guy or not) but the crux of it is accurate.

I'm not so sure I agree that Novak is unique in this. I recall all the nice things Federer's opponents have said about him. I even recall James Blake after one final loss saying how Roger was the only player who visited him in hospital or something when he was suffering from a potentially career ending injury. If Federer were the egoist @Mastoor would have us believe then why does Roger get the vote from the players year in year out. For what it's worth most of the top guys are quite nice which is in stark contrast to the Connors and Lendl's of yesteryear... Unless your agreement is with the nice guys don't win so much? But surely even then... 12 slams being a nice guy? I'll take that!

 

[Federberg]

Oh, come on. I saw those toes in close-up. There wasn't even a blister. No black toenail, no bleeding. And I've lost 4-5 toenails from running. It's not that serious. It hurts, until it falls off, or you relieve the pressure under the nail, that's all. I can do that myself, without million dollar physio support. As I said before, I don't think anyone believes that injury was serious. He was cramping, and he needed a break. Even you said you hoped he was cramping, v. groin injury. No groin injury, so he was cramping. He invented a sore toe for the break he needed. That's all. There really isn't any other explanation. It's not a heinous crime, but don't pretend it isn't what it is.

Errr... I definitely saw blood the 2nd time, not the first time, but definitely the second time

 

[Federberg]

The funny thing is that, at least two times in the final, he did that just after an insane winner that was, well, insane. Those were fantastic shots, maybe no one else in the world could hit them, but the last thing I would use to describe them, or the whole point construction in question, is "wise", "clever", or "intelligent". Well, maybe he thought ´hmmm, I´ll play it in some way that after 10 shots I am 3 feet behind the baseline, out of balance and out of position, and then I´ll fire an absurd DTL backhand. He will never know what hit him..."

Maybe we have it wrong then. When he's pointing to his head after one of those insane shots, he just might be saying something like I'm a nutter! Not I'm mentally tough

 

[Mary]

I thought I saw blood on the toe?

I saw his foot on Eurosport, obviously not the same shot as Moxie saw. There was blood, looked nasty and his foot and ankle were shaking. He was clearly in pain.

Obviously he will have the best advice and care available but for me it underlines something Billy and In were discussing before the final. Top athletes are fit in some ways - cardiovascular and general muscle development and flexibility. But they put their bodies through years of abuse with major wear and tear, often compete when they are injured using pain killers and when they do take time off for treatment they are under pressure to return too soon. Pain is the body telling you to stop, if it's ignored you pay a price. I think too many top tennis players are paying that price now - US open was full of casualties. Players and the ATP need to rethink the schedule.

 

[britbox]

I saw his foot on Eurosport, obviously not the same shot as Moxie saw. There was blood, looked nasty and his foot and ankle were shaking. He was clearly in pain.

Obviously he will have the best advice and care available but for me it underlines something Billy and In were discussing before the final. Top athletes are fit in some ways - cardiovascular and general muscle development and flexibility. But they put their bodies through years of abuse with major wear and tear, often compete when they are injured using pain killers and when they do take time off for treatment they are under pressure to return too soon. Pain is the body telling you to stop, if it's ignored you pay a price. I think too many top tennis players are paying that price now - US open was full of casualties. Players and the ATP need to rethink the schedule.

I think the Olympic year messed up the scheduling big time - proof is probably in the pudding with the amount of injuries this year. The last 6 months have been like an episode of the Walking Dead.

I ended up on Eurosport too for the final - I switched from ESPN because the feed was bad. I'm guessing ESPN didn't show the second look at the foot that Eurosport did.

 

[Mary]

I think the Olympic year messed up the scheduling big time - proof is probably in the pudding with the amount of injuries this year. The last 6 months have been like an episode of the Walking Dead.

I ended up on Eurosport too for the final - I switched from ESPN because the feed was bad. I'm guessing ESPN didn't show the second look at the foot that Eurosport did.

Olympics made the scheduling particularly bad but even without that its grim. Fed and Nadal's problems for example were pre Olympics. I think athletics has the same problems. We had a wonderful hurdler, Perry Shakes Drayton who competed when not fully fit, about 2 years ago. She realised at the start of her race something was wrote but ran on and finished. She wrecked her knee, has had several surgeries, tried to come back on the flat and got injured again. Her athletics career is basically gone. There are so many examples like this. I love sport but its not good to see world class sports people sustaining injuries that not only affect their sports performance but that will impact their fitness for life. Part of the pressure is the ranking system and that could be looked at. Also the ATP attitude - the pressure they put on Murray when he said he might not play the ATP final last Nov showed real lack of consideration for a player.