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britbox

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Informative article for those interested in Labour Leadership and what comes next.


Interesting... seems the right wing of the party are digging in to launch a continued Civil War after Corbyn is elected. Surely the time would be to mobilise their following for the election not afterward... I think if Corbyn is re-elected then there is going to have to be some blood letting or the party will be in a perpetual state of civil war... or a split (as you predicted in an earlier post)
 
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Mary

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Interesting... seems the right wing of the party are digging in to launch a continued Civil War after Corbyn is elected. Surely the time would be to mobilise their following for the election not afterward... I think if Corbyn is re-elected then there is going to have to be some blood letting or the party will be in a perpetual state of civil war... or a split (as you predicted in an earlier post)
Interesting... seems the right wing of the party are digging in to launch a continued Civil War after Corbyn is elected. Surely the time would be to mobilise their following for the election not afterward... I think if Corbyn is re-elected then there is going to have to be some blood letting or the party will be in a perpetual state of civil war... or a split (as you predicted in an earlier post)

Several have actually admitted this. They won't fight for a Smith victory - he has no significant following and a bad record on NHS. I think they have used him to try to wear Corbyn and his funds out. None of the PLP have appeared on a platform with him.

I felt ages go that a split was essential. Then I based that on ideoogical differences. Now it's more than that because of the dirty tricks and abuse - there seems to be a very high level of emnity. I personally could not remain in the same political party as, for example McTernan (smash the Unions for good )or Jess Phillips who used the tragic murder of Jo Cox to score cheap political points. I would hope for a quick split of the right wing of the PLP out of Labour and to see Labour being the voice of ordinary working people again. It may mean the Party needs time to regroup and strengthen but many of us feel a right wing labour govt is as bad as a Tory one.
 

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^ Can you think of a leader who could unite both factions?
No, I think unity is past praying for now. Had he been an MP longer Keir Starmer might have done but positions are entrenched now. Have you ever seen a conflict escalation table? Starts with a slight disagreement and stage by stage escalates to "inhuman behaviour" at which point it cannot be resolved. I think that's where we are with about 20-30 of the PLP.
 

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No, I haven't seen one of those tables... but I do think in many respects it would be a crying shame if the party broke up, because they wouldn't ever challenge for power again in my lifetime. Not that I'm a Labour supporter, but I always think a strong counterbalance to the ruling government is essential.

I respect Corbyn for being his own man. He's true to himself... I liked Tony Benn or the same reason... but I could never vote for either as their politics are just way off my radar. I voted for Labour twice, in 1997 and 2001 and believed in Blair... in hindsight he was another one of those greasy politicians who were in for themselves - no soul, no conscience, feathering his own nest and soundbites galore...

The interesting thing about a potential split for me, is who will be the "Official" Labour Party? Will it be the Corbyn group or the PLP group?

By the way, I'm sick to death of the hypocrite Neil Kinnock commenting on this as a party "grandee'... If there is one man who has betrayed everything he's supposed to have stood for, more than Lord Kinnock, then I'm yet to find him.
 

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No, I haven't seen one of those tables... but I do think in many respects it would be a crying shame if the party broke up, because they wouldn't ever challenge for power again in my lifetime. Not that I'm a Labour supporter, but I always think a strong counterbalance to the ruling government is essential.

I respect Corbyn for being his own man. He's true to himself... I liked Tony Benn or the same reason... but I could never vote for either as their politics are just way off my radar. I voted for Labour twice, in 1997 and 2001 and believed in Blair... in hindsight he was another one of those greasy politicians who were in for themselves - no soul, no conscience, feathering his own nest and soundbites galore...

The interesting thing about a potential split for me, is who will be the "Official" Labour Party? Will it be the Corbyn group or the PLP group?

By the way, I'm sick to death of the hypocrite Neil Kinnock commenting on this as a party "grandee'... If there is one man who has betrayed everything he's supposed to have stood for, more than Lord Kinnock, then I'm yet to find him.

Considering Kinnock never won an election he is making himself far too busy!

Who takes the Labour name and resources is pretty worrying. Technically the PLP and the Party are different bodies so it should be for labour members to decide. As it stands at present out of 500,000 members I am pretty sure 400,000 would be left wing. Should the PLP rebels manage some legal trick and win that battle there would be mass walk outs and I think real violence. They could only get max 9-10 months members money though plus what ever capital there is. I think people would join a new left wing party - think how fast Momentum has
gained support. I'd like to see a party with clean open funding, unlike at present where so many donors expect to make undemocratic decisions.

I don't despair of a powerful opposition just yet. Not sure how Corbyn's rallies are being reported where you are. They are barely covered in the MSM here but it is massive. I never remember anything like it in my lifetime. They are saying it's like Attlee after the war. There is are thousands flocking to them everywhere he goes and a real feeling of change. The other factor of course is what the Tories do and May's talk of unifying is already very thin. Lots is happening to fuel anger especially health care, Green and BHS, homelessness figures and Brexit is a poisoned chalice - too many against it to be satisfied with whatever is achieved and too many for it to accept a watered down version. Historically we have always voted against a sitting govt rasrasthser than for the opposition so anything could happen.

You mentioned you knew some momerntum members. Do they see it as I do??
 

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I live in Oz now, so the mainstream media doesn't really cover UK Politics that much... but I check in online to various publications, left and right... from the Canary through to the Daily Mail to cover the spectrum.

My sister-in-law is hard left (and her hubby), but I don't engage her on politics to maintain family peace... oil and water and all that. My sister is left-ish but probably more aligned with the PLP at a rough guess. My old man has gone from Labour to UKIP I think... quite a transformation. Plenty of friends and family spanning the spectrum - left and right wing, but my vibe is that the left wing isn't too fussed about a compromise and would rather see two parties as opposed to compromising. Definitely interesting times.
 
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Do you read Canary @Mary? It keeps popping up on my Facebook from left wing friends... I read a couple of articles, but is seems the canary only has one wing (a left one :) )
 

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Do you read Canary @Mary? It keeps popping up on my Facebook from left wing friends... I read a couple of articles, but is seems the canary only has one wing (a left one :) )
Yes I like Canary. Steve Topple is a great writer, a Leftie like me but lots of common sense and evidence for what he says. I also read Econmist + New Statesman for balance and Times + Guardian. Can't bear the racism of the Mail though.
BBC is being slated at present for bias - lots of reputable academics demanding discussion. Today there are reports that they spent £28 million on gagging orders to prevent whistle blowing. The News Editor is ex Murdoch. And another BBC DJ today confessed to over 20 child sex abuse offenses. I can't imagine what mgt are doing there.

Labour ballot papers arrived today so have voted. We are advised to keep copies in case of mishandling/corruption in the count!
 

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Heh heh... on the original point, I can't imagine the Americans are going to want Blair in the Hague, as there could be implications for some very powerful American politicians or ex-politicians... so I think this whole thing will get suffocated by powerful forces before it gets too far.

i read yesterday that some group in USA -- probably the pro-trump -- wants the OSCE - that oversees elections supposedly -- ?

to come to the USA TO observe the election in november for fear of rigging..

after all this is the same country that in the ''re-election" of bush jr...actually denied visas and permits for international observers of elections (the same ones invited by russia every election time) - entry to the USA, -- little remembered now -- but even issuing threats of arrests if they DID come even with visas and tried to observe the counts.

because -- supposedly -- the USA does not need such things as its ''democracy is in fine condition"....

unless i am wrong -- if i remmeber the USA 'vote counting" or registering system does NOT issue ANY receipt or recrod to the voters.

you vote into the machines by DIEBOLD - (which , ''coincidentally" has as one of it smajor shareholders - a certain GEORGE SOROS of 'color and democracy revolution" ''fame") - and walk away --

just HAVE FAITH in the credibility of american democracy and 'accountability" ....
 

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@Mary is probably more in the know to furnish you with exact details but in a nutshell there is a battle between two wings of the party to control it.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

oooo...well hopefully however it is resolved it is for the BETTER way between the factions.
 

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so this means what, Britbox\?

what does the labor ''powers-that-be" want?
Our Labour Party has a 1 member 1vote system, allowing members to vote in leadership elections. Currently a bitterly fought leadership battle is going on between the left and right wings of the party. Jeremy Corbyn, the Leftie is extremely popular and since the battle began over 300,000 people joined the party to vote for him. The blurb you see when joining says nothing about having been a member for a certain time period to vote. The Labour National Executive Committee, the ruling body sneakily decided new members had to have 6 months membership to vote purely to disenfranchise the new people and reduce the vote for Corbyn. 5 members took the party to court. There case was funded through an appeal to the public. They won. However the Labour Party without a full NECmeeting appealed, using members money to pay for the appeal. They won. Most people think the main judge was biased and should not have heard the case. The party membership is furious - in about two hours they raised £70,000 to pay the costs of the five. The two people who made the decision to appeal are the Chief exec and deputy leader. There are calls to dismiss them but this can only be done at the party conference in Sep. Now we hear the conference may be cancelled due to security issues!

Voting is currently in progress, Corbyn so far leading on 87% to Smith 13% but we anticipate more dirty tricks.

The present party Leadership are rightwing and have dominated the party since the 1990s. Now members have a vote they are moving the party left, back towards it's roots. The right wing hate this and want to hang on but to to that thery have to oppose party members, people like me. Corbyn is so popular, has fought for ordinary people all his life. When he first became leader last year we had 180,000 members. Now there are 660,000. No wonder the right wing are terrified!

Sorry for any typos, am using a tablet that auto corrects with some over exuberance!
 
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Our Labour Party has a 1 member 1vote system, allowing members to vote in leadership elections. Currently a bitterly fought leadership battle is going on between the left and right wings of the party. Jeremy Corbyn, the Leftie is extremely popular and since the battle began over 300,000 people joined the party to vote for him. The blurb you see when joining says nothing about having been a member for a certain time period to vote. The Labour National Executive Committee, the ruling body sneakily decided new members had to have 6 months membership to vote purely to disenfranchise the new people and reduce the vote for Corbyn. 5 members took the party to court. There case was funded through an appeal to the public. They won. However the Labour Party without a full NECmeeting appealed, using members money to pay for the appeal. They won. Most people think the main judge was biased and should not have heard the case. The party membership is furious - in about two hours they raised £70,000 to pay the costs of the five. The two people who made the decision to appeal are the Chief exec and deputy leader. There are calls to dismiss them but this can only be done at the party conference in Sep. Now we hear the conference may be cancelled due to security issues!

Voting is currently in progress, Corbyn so far leading on 87% to Smith 13% but we anticipate more dirty tricks.

The present party Leadership are rightwing and have dominated the party since the 1990s. Now members have a vote they are moving the party left, back towards it's roots. The right wing hate this and want to hang on but to to that thery have to oppose party members, people like me. Corbyn is so popular, has fought for ordinary people all his life. When he first became leader last year we had 180,000 members. Now there are 660,000. No wonder the right wing are terrified!

Sorry for any typos, am using a tablet that auto corrects with some over exuberance!

oooo -- so that;s how it works.

first of all -- horrible that the party bosses are doing that. that's called corruption -- pure and simple..and rigging the system - and also even more obviously so because it is done ''during ball in play" - the voting process - barring only the actual voting , but the process of preparing which includes signing up for membership and then final process to be counted as members eligible to vote -- as was their choice -- is then CHANGED MIDSTREAM.

IT IS called ''shifting the target" location. or changing the rules midway.

how sad because one member one vote IS direct democracy at its finest, imo.

particularly because the people are very engaged and by that alone are showing they are taking seriously their CIVIC duty to have their stakes and interest be taken in account.

we also do direct vote in my homecountry philippines...

none of that fancy ,lugubrious ''electoral system" by an 'elite' such as int he USA that passes for ''democracy".

for all their flaws this direct vote ''democracy" - is better, imo,

but for the bosses to do that so brazenly? that's a big, big problem.

what they're doing with changing the rules and requirements is like a pole vaulter going to olympics in rio -- expecting that he is going to aim for 8 feet bar -- and can do it -- and they raise the bar to 10 feet.
 
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It has made many
oooo -- so that;s how it works.

first of all -- horrible that the party bosses are doing that. that's called corruption -- pure and simple..and rigging the system - and also even more obviously so because it is done ''during ball in play" - the voting process - barring only the actual voting , but the process of preparing which includes signing up for membership and then final process to be counted as members eligible to vote -- as was their choice -- is then CHANGED MIDSTREAM.

IT IS called ''shifting the target" location. or changing the rules midway.

how sad because one member one vote IS direct democracy at its finest, imo.

particularly because the people are very engaged and by that alone are showing they are taking seriously their CIVIC duty to have their stakes and interest be taken in account.

we also do direct vote in my homecountry philippines...

none of that fancy ,lugubrious ''electoral system" by an 'elite' such as int he USA that passes for ''democracy".

for all their flaws this direct vote ''democracy" - is better, imo,

but for the bosses to do that so brazenly? that's a big, big problem.

what they're doing with changing the rules and requirements is like a pole vaulter going to olympics in rio -- expecting that he is going to aim for 8 feet bar -- and can do it -- and they raise the bar to 10 feet.

It has made many of us ashamed of our party and determined to change things. You are right, corruption is endemic in UK politics and hard to challenge but lots of us keep trying even if its only little things we can do. Some good has come out of it - some great people supporting Corbyn, exposure of the dirty tricks players and alliances of like minded members and of course the new members whichmaskes us I think the biggext political party in Europe.
 
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It has made many


It has made many of us ashamed of our party and determined to change things. You are right, corruption is endemic in UK politics and hard to challenge but lots of us keep trying even if its only little things we can do. Some good has come out of it - some great people supporting Corbyn, exposure of the dirty tricks players and alliances of like minded members and of course the new members whichmaskes us I think the biggext political party in Europe.


Tthere is always going to be corruption anywhere and everywhere. impossible to really remove that from human character it seems.

and nowhere more evident than in elections and politics. obviously all that countries and electorates can hope for is to endlessly make their will FELT - so that the temptation is lessened -- both for the politicians attempting to connive or do ''deals" -- or intimidate electorates -- and for the electorate to also avoid giving in to THEIR base instincts of giving up on their principles or on things that their conscience knows are the proper things for everyone concerned. -- themselves as a commons.

my own younger brother back hom in the philippines is an election commission official and it's always ''nervous time" as election seasons come around because he has to execute his office responsibly , completely above board and balance it all with what CAN sometimes be dangerous situations - especially because it's a very big and important province in the south
that involves christians and muslims ...so he must not side with any faction - not give in either to bribery OR intimidation and threats...and we - his siblings elswhere are always very nervous although we know he is honest and principled as we were always taught to be by our parents since we were always friendly with muslims as well as fellow christians -- all being filipinos anyway.i mean -- he could easily have gotten so rich from bribes - but remains just ordinary level doing his job honestly and judiciously..because that's just not what the family name would EVER allow as our parents said: "the only thing we can ever leave you as a real treasure is our name".

so - i do come from a placde where 'corruption' is endemic in ITS own way.

but that's how the world is in many ways -

but -- in teh end -- the WILL of the people somehow still comes through --for what might be their betterment or not.
what i DO know is in my home country -- although there are of course the ''main parties" (probably 3 now or even 4) ..people actually field candidates across many MORE parties than are usually able to go 'national" or at least ''state" (provincial) level

as it is in the USA WITH ITS basically ONE party system - the war and corporate money party with two sides of the same coin...

and to make matters worse -- they have the ''electoral" dinosaur system...

i definitely think that from your explanations -- the system of voting you have in UK is far superior to that of the USA'S.

AND not only that -- your ordinary folks SHOW their will far more readily and STRONGLY than they do in the USA Whose idea of ''showing strength" is really to NOT challenge their PARTY establishment ''too much" .

and ''challenges" are more for ''show" to give the pretense and appearance of a party of ''inclusiveness' that eventually reverts to ''unity" no MATTER if the winnign 'side' is ctually WORSE than ever...such as HILLARY on the democrats for example.

SANDERS -- votes stolen literally by the pro-clinton party ''neutral organizers?" and THEN exhorting HIS followers to SWALLOW their betrayal?

exatly where on EARTH does something like that happen?
 

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So difficult

Tthere is always going to be corruption anywhere and everywhere. impossible to really remove that from human character it seems.

and nowhere more evident than in elections and politics. obviously all that countries and electorates can hope for is to endlessly make their will FELT - so that the temptation is lessened -- both for the politicians attempting to connive or do ''deals" -- or intimidate electorates -- and for the electorate to also avoid giving in to THEIR base instincts of giving up on their principles or on things that their conscience knows are the proper things for everyone concerned. -- themselves as a commons.

my own younger brother back hom in the philippines is an election commission official and it's always ''nervous time" as election seasons come around because he has to execute his office responsibly , completely above board and balance it all with what CAN sometimes be dangerous situations - especially because it's a very big and important province in the south
that involves christians and muslims ...so he must not side with any faction - not give in either to bribery OR intimidation and threats...and we - his siblings elswhere are always very nervous although we know he is honest and principled as we were always taught to be by our parents since we were always friendly with muslims as well as fellow christians -- all being filipinos anyway.i mean -- he could easily have gotten so rich from bribes - but remains just ordinary level doing his job honestly and judiciously..because that's just not what the family name would EVER allow as our parents said: "the only thing we can ever leave you as a real treasure is our name".

so - i do come from a placde where 'corruption' is endemic in ITS own way.

but that's how the world is in many ways -

but -- in teh end -- the WILL of the people somehow still comes through --for what might be their betterment or not.
what i DO know is in my home country -- although there are of course the ''main parties" (probably 3 now or even 4) ..people actually field candidates across many MORE parties than are usually able to go 'national" or at least ''state" (provincial) level

as it is in the USA WITH ITS basically ONE party system - the war and corporate money party with two sides of the same coin...

and to make matters worse -- they have the ''electoral" dinosaur system...

i definitely think that from your explanations -- the system of voting you have in UK is far superior to that of the USA'S.

AND not only that -- your ordinary folks SHOW their will far more readily and STRONGLY than they do in the USA Whose idea of ''showing strength" is really to NOT challenge their PARTY establishment ''too much" .

and ''challenges" are more for ''show" to give the pretense and appearance of a party of ''inclusiveness' that eventually reverts to ''unity" no MATTER if the winnign 'side' is ctually WORSE than ever...such as HILLARY on the democrats for eANDERS -- votes stolen literally by the pro-clinton party ''neutral organizers?" and THEN exhorting HIS followers to SWALLOW their betrayal?

exatly where on EARTH does something like that happen?[/QUOTE

Your family really helped you to develop sound values - mine were like that too.

Not all the parties have a 1 member 1 vote system here, usually its a committee or special group that would determine leadership. It was introduced to our labour party to try to break the power of ther unions more than to make the party democratic and the right wing hate it and given a chance would change it. But if they did members would riot!
 

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Sorry my post has gone hay wire - is at end of the quote from yours above!!
 
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