UK Politics Thread

[teddytennisfan]

TO ME - it just looks not just a mess...they're ending up -- well -- all of ''you'' - screwing each other up. it is like when the carefully , over-time , built artificiality of an EU/NATO - make no mistake THESE ARE NOT separate entities - rather the ''economic/military" fronts for the same american rule --

starts to collapse under the weight of its own machinations - it's everyone for himself...

to put it in the crassest of terms.
that's why i've always said -- if at all possible -- CUT AND CUT CLEANLY. itis the ONLY WAY. anything else is just proloning the inevitable collapse while torturing each other about ''how to go about it".

meanwhile there's PLENTY OF things each country -- started by UK PEOPLE'S WILL -- to FIX in their own policies. and there's plentyof things to build better.

one funny thing is this:

out of ALL EU - SWITZERLAND -- which withdrew its application just 2 months ago , and that was prior to brexit really --

has been theone single country enjoying plenty of nice economic advances with ITS economic deals with china opening the door to switzerland to asia where the real money is.

that alone should have raised a red flag to the REST of the european countries

on NATO alone -- british citizens are making a contribution to EU for EUpolicies in exchange for ''free market" to eu? heck -- britain can arrange that on its own country to country anywhere -- same as countries could do for themselves rather than subject themsleves to the unelected - american-designates in brussels

including that POLISH DONALD TUSK ..

WHY AM i mentioning HIM?

simple - take a good look at all the 'NATO EXPANSION" TOWARDS RUSSIA.

OF ALL the countries -== historically -- apart from UK's own ''dreams" from the days of HAROLD MACKINDER TO ''rule the heartland" (russia itself) -

which country has historically always considered RUSSIA as rightfully "ours?"

NONE OTHER THAN ''NOBLE POLAND".

check their history -- it runs through it like a spine...nobilities, ideals of expanding , thinking of tjemselves as the ''superior WESTERN SLAVS over those eastern, oriental, barbaric slavs".

trying to get a polish princess WED into the russian throne but being rebuffed by the czars, inserting for a decade or so a polich NOBLE pretender to the russian trhone before the russians organized themselves enough to tear him out of the palace , - carve him down into pieces and feed his parts into the cannons and blow them right across the border to tell them something about their presumption...

which country CLAIMS that it has the right to take UKRAINIAN LAND ALL the way to the BLACK SEA?



AND YOU -- BRITS ARE PAYING CONTRIBUTIONS TO ''Defend" NOT the interests of EUROPE against so-called russian aggression -- but POLAND'S OLD BITTER JEALOUSY to get more land disguised as ''defending poor little defenseless poland" --


JUST LIKE ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI would love..."we should really carve up russia into smaller manageable countries for us to control".

who HIMSELF takes it from A POLISH predecessor in the early 20th century espousing THAT very idea .. which THEY share WITH YOUR own 19TH c HAROLD MACKINDER...

SO -- if you are british -- you ought to know about that...if you understand THAT you SHOULD understand ''encirclement of russia" according to BRZEZINSKI the ''polish noble" (he claims he is descended from nobles) -

and if you ARE BRITISH -- you should remember your OWN great general MONTGOMERY...

"THERE ARE THREE RULES OF WAR:

1) never march on Moscow
2) never march on moscow
3) follow the above two rules./ "

lol..

that's what all this NATO, EU nonsense amounts to folks -- and YOU'RE paying for it with YOUR taxes!
which by DESIGN by the USA after the world war is stated -- by american policy makers themselves in archived material..unfolding before your eyes right now in your own countries:

"too keep the germans DOWN -- KEEP THE AMERICANS IN -- AND KEEP THE RUSSIANS OUT".

SO WHAT DOES THAT reallytell you , any of you that actually understand LANGUAGE? YOUR OWN ENGLISH?

you are COLONIES of the americans! if you have ANY pride at all -- admit it, first of all. and THEN do something about it. BECOME the europeans you think you are proud of...for YOUR natural ALLY is NOT america -- it is RUSSIA! DEAR FOLKS! LOL.

becuase NOTHING is more frightening to the americans than for EUROPE to be UNITED WITH ALL OF EURASIA --

FROM WALES TO SAKHALIN ALL THE WAY TO MANILA! AND DOWN TO TEHRAN AND BANGKOK...AND join eith russia and china and iran and all others that would PREFER to have good commerce and fair trade and friendship with all of you.

lol.
;lol....

 

[Mary]

New Labour members win right to vote.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37009871?SThisFB

My vibe is that most of these new members will be going for Corbyn. My sister-in-law is one of them, just joined the Labour Party and a Momentum groupie.

Well a great victory for Momentum yesterday with the entire Momentum slate winning NEC elections which means a left wing control of the party. Also fury at the Party decision taken before election result announced that they would appeal the High Court decision on member voting. So the party is using member funds paid to fight the Tories to fight the members who providecd the funds. Calls now for resignation of Labour Chief Exec who is an appointed official and who should be impartial. It's heating up. How do your Momentum friends see it?

 

[Federberg]

^It's good to see real democracy at work. I do agree that major parties clustering at the centre is what leads to voter disenfranchisement, but the project to make a new Labour party that's electable will be a long project given what we're seeing now

 

[britbox]

 

[britbox]

^ A few talking points in that speech.

Did he say 500 billion or million?

Every girl is educated as well as every boy? That's lost on me... aren't they in the same classroom? and if I remember correctly, girls were generally outperforming boys in most age groups.

 

[teddytennisfan]

^ A few talking points in that speech.

Did he say 500 billion or million?

Every girl is educated as well as every boy? That's lost on me... aren't they in the same classroom? and if I remember correctly, girls were generally outperforming boys in most age groups.

girls are just as bright as boys -- period.

too bad though that some of them grow to become KILLARY KILLTON,

SAMANTHA ''HUMANITARIAN WARS" POWERS.
MAD MADELEINE "it was worth (destroying1 million iraqis, including children) to get saddam" ALBRIGHT
CONDOLEEZA "wmds are about to come as mushroom clouds of destruction over our cities" RICE
SUSAN "nations like russia must respect international laws and sovereignty" RICE

U know? grow up to actually show what the ''caring, nurturing'' strong female is -- rather than the screeching BANSHEES AND HARPIES that they are?

 

[Federberg]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-race-idUKKCN10T0R9?utm_source=applenews

 

[britbox]

Labour national executive denies 130,000 new members from voting on the leadership.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ruling-allowing-new-members-a-leadership-vote

That's because they are largely for Corbyn.

 

[Mary]

Labour national executive denies 130,000 new members from voting on the leadership.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ruling-allowing-new-members-a-leadership-vote

That's because they are largely for Corbyn.

The main appeal court judge was a friend and long term associate of Blair!
The funding for the five was raised in one evening, they had wonderful support but Hannah, 1 of the 5, told me they did not feel they could take it further, the financial risk and stress was too much. Of that 130,000 many have a right to vote under the £25 supporter system anyway. It has brought the Party establishment into massive disrepute and members more furious than ever. The rebel MPs don't seem to realise that this is as much about democracy in the party as it is abojut Corbyn and have said they would scrap the 1 member 1 vote system - ie vote for us and lose your vote!
Meantime there seems to be a move to set up a new party behind Blunket and Blair. Rumours that they will try to get David Miliband back from the US. They would get business funding I ensure but not much of the membership. Party Conference in Sep will be crazy!

 

[Federberg]

Hi Mary. How much of the electorate would a "New Labour" get versus the "Labour" party that would be left if the MP's split away from Corbyn and the Labour party members? I'm interesting to hear your calculation of the popularity of the two sides among the electorate at large

 

[Mary]

Hi Mary. How much of the electorate would a "New Labour" get versus the "Labour" party that would be left if the MP's split away from Corbyn and the Labour party members? I'm interesting to hear your calculation of the popularity of the two sides among the electorate at large

Very hard to say, so many unknowns. If they form a totally new party without the labour name they might get about 6%. If they somehow hang onto the labour name and funding possibly 15 %. I think if that happened the left membership would break away and form another party around Momentum. The key thing then would be what the Unions would do. I think there are too many discredited people in New Labour - Benn, Kinnock, Eagle, Philips, McTernan, Streeting etc, loads of ammunition against them for any opposition. Late Sep the new NEC members will be active and action against some of them inevitable. That could trigger the split. My guess if they split is that 80% labour membership stays with Corbyn.


Scotland is key. Interesting that there are signs of popularity for Corbyn being show there now and he is campaigning there next week I think.

 

[Federberg]

Very hard to say, so many unknowns. If they form a totally new party without the labour name they might get about 6%. If they somehow hang onto the labour name and funding possibly 15 %. I think if that happened the left membership would break away and form another party around Momentum. The key thing then would be what the Unions would do. I think there are too many discredited people in New Labour - Benn, Kinnock, Eagle, Philips, McTernan, Streeting etc, loads of ammunition against them for any opposition. Late Sep the new NEC members will be active and action against some of them inevitable. That could trigger the split. My guess if they split is that 80% labour membership stays with Corbyn.


Scotland is key. Interesting that there are signs of popularity for Corbyn being show there now and he is campaigning there next week I think.

That's interesting, thanks. I've always thought that the electorate at large seem to be more comfortable, from a governing point of view at least, with a centre left style (Blairite) labour party, vs a hard left Corbynite party. To my mind, it's the reason Blair won, but Gordon Brown was unable to (and I'm not saying that he was hard left, just left enough to lose). But if there's a split now it will be the ultimate test either way

 

[Mary]

That's interesting, thanks. I've always thought that the electorate at large seem to be more comfortable, from a governing point of view at least, with a centre left style (Blairite) labour party, vs a hard left Corbynite party. To my mind, it's the reason Blair won, but Gordon Brown was unable to (and I'm not saying that he was hard left, just left enough to lose). But if there's a split now it will be the ultimate test either way

There are too many uncertainties now but overall I think things are very different than they were when Blair won. They key things I see having a huge potential impact are how May handles NHS situation and homelessness. These two issues alone could drive people to vote differently. Also if/when Corbyn wins who stays and who leaves. There are quite a few who may rally behind him. I am hoping Keir Starmer stays - I have a lot of time for him. But I have felt even before the coup that the party had some pretty awful MPs. One thing I feel very strongly about is better screening for potential MPS and councillors and party officials eg CLP chairs. There should be full scale probity testing and a demand for total committment to party values. The attitude of many is "once I'm elected I can do what I like."
I don't see Corbyn's policies as hard left - they would have been centre ground in Wilson's time. Its just the party lurched so far right and away from socialism and the media have swung massively right since Murdoch/Thatcher. It's hard to read a balanced view these days.

 

[Federberg]

That's a fair point re: the way the media has moved. But that's largely due to the fact, that like it or not, Maggie won the argument. You won't find socialist parties anywhere in the world that haven't moved towards the centre. Those that didn't don't exist anymore. Is there a case for a more leftward movement? Absolutely. For the same reasons that voters have been inspired by both Bernie Sanders and Trump. This is the crisis of western democracy and the increasingly plutocratic rather than democratic politics that currently exists. But the electorate has to be carried along as well. I fear, that in the UK, the argument has not been made effectively yet. I'm not sure Corbyn will be the one to do that. Not when he has views regarding foreign policy and defence that the vast majority of the UK electorate will never countenance

 

[Mary]

That's a fair point re: the way the media has moved. But that's largely due to the fact, that like it or not, Maggie won the argument. You won't find socialist parties anywhere in the world that haven't moved towards the centre. Those that didn't don't exist anymore. Is there a case for a more leftward movement? Absolutely. For the same reasons that voters have been inspired by both Bernie Sanders and Trump. This is the crisis of western democracy and the increasingly plutocratic rather than democratic politics that currently exists. But the electorate has to be carried along as well. I fear, that in the UK, the argument has not been made effectively yet. I'm not sure Corbyn will be the one to do that. Not when he has views regarding foreign policy and defence that the vast majority of the UK electorate will never countenance

I'm not sure Corbyn will be the one to do it either. I totally support him and his policies but the timing and his age are against him. But I believe he has got a major leftward movement started and its gaining support every day. And although they are not well known there are some great people behind him eg Burgon, Clive Lewis, Angela Rayner.
I think most people don't want Trident or definitely not another war. Should there be war it needs to be a parliamentary decision not a party leader's decision. He was ridiculed for saying talk to Jerry Adams and McGuiness years ago but look what happened. And I totally agree that the way to tackle terrorism is cut off the supply of money and arms. It amazes me that yesterday we had heart breaking pictures of that traumatised and injured child and today the press criticize him for advocating peace! And three days ago Smith said get round the table with Isis and it has barely been reported. The Ant and Dec rubbish got more press coverage than the anti terrorist debate!

Slightly off topic did you see that the families of Iraqui war victims have got their funding to try to get Blair to court?

 

[Federberg]

I would disagree with you about Trident. I think the general view is, if others have nuclear weapons, then we're certainly not going to give ours up, and I tend to agree. No one is saying we'll ever use them, but it just seems plain silly to me to get rid of the capability if you already have it. Pandora's box has been opened.

As for Corbyn's comments that later proved right. Unfortunately the way the world works is that if a person with Corbyn's history and views makes comments like that it's not going to resonate in the same way it would if someone with a more mainstream collection of views said it. It's sort of like Democrats criticising Trump. No one will pay attention until a Republican says exactly the same thing. Human nature

I didn't know about the Iraq war victims. Giddy up! It's going to be entertaining. Of course it's not going to get anywhere. Not against the legal team that Blair can summon with all his filthy lucre

 

[britbox]

Slightly off topic did you see that the families of Iraqui war victims have got their funding to try to get Blair to court?

Is that the International court in the Hague? I recall Galloway was trying to put something together also, to coincide with a movie he's making about Blair and Iraq.

The reality... I'm guessing that too many cogs (US, UK + allies) will move together to prevent anything going beyond first base, even if it did somehow end up in court.

 

[Mary]

Is that the International court in the Hague? I recall Galloway was trying to put something together also, to coincide with a movie he's making about Blair and Iraq.

The reality... I'm guessing that too many cogs (US, UK + allies) will move together to prevent anything going beyond first base, even if it did somehow end up in court.

I don't know which court, just saw the Crowd Funding appeal and update on money raised so far. I have a feeling you and Federberg are right, too much corruption, money and influence for a fair hearing but anything that sinks Blair's name a bit further is useful.

labour party has an abuse policy - suspect it's never going to be properly applied but the term Blairite is recognised as abusive!

 

[Mary]

Informative article for those interested in Labour Leadership and what comes next.

 

[britbox]

I don't know which court, just saw the Crowd Funding appeal and update on money raised so far. I have a feeling you and Federberg are right, too much corruption, money and influence for a fair hearing but anything that sinks Blair's name a bit further is useful.

labour party has an abuse policy - suspect it's never going to be properly applied but the term Blairite is recognised as abusive!

Heh heh... on the original point, I can't imagine the Americans are going to want Blair in the Hague, as there could be implications for some very powerful American politicians or ex-politicians... so I think this whole thing will get suffocated by powerful forces before it gets too far.