Police in America

calitennis127

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14623 said:
Good grief is right, Cali. You expose a lot about your own one-dimensional view of black men. And you know nothing about my social life or work life, for that matter. I do understand that the N-word gets thrown around amongst friends, and that crude things get said about women which I can take with very good humor. I suspect that your narrow world view also sees “feminist” women as equally one-dimensional, and humorless on top of it. I work with majority-male crews, and I travel the world with them. I have heard, and laughed at, things that would make your eyelashes curl. I’m perfectly down with the non-PC, amongst friends. (Which does not mean being “racist” when minorities aren’t looking.) I’m saying that, when you’re not amongst friends, graciousness is a good watchword. There is no reason not to be sensitive to people, in your language and in your heart. That could apply to everyone.

I do not take issue with your desire to be polite. I take issue with your sanctimonious pseudo-Christian piety on this question. When blacks can call each other the n-word with impunity in music, sports, and social settings and make a joke of it, and then you come around and say that even using the word "colored" is intolerable, you simply reveal your own disconnect from reality. If you knew anything at all about black environments, you would know that it helps no one there to be "sensitive". Maybe it helps you, but like a typical dimwitted leftist, you presume that what you want is exactly what other people want. You may want people to be "sensitive" toward you, but that isn't exactly what they may want. You are no different than the CNN fools who celebrated the Arab Spring because they thought all Egyptians wanted Facebook and McDonald's. 5 years later, where are we?

As for your assertion that my view is one-dimensional, that is pathetically wrong. It is borne out of countless experiences in athletics with more people than I can name. I have seen it over and over. It is a pattern that a bunch of white tennis geeks could never grasp let alone relate to. Is every black male that way? No. But it is a general pattern. Patterns do not have to be valid 100% of the time to be insightful indicators of reality.

 
 

calitennis127

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Air Bird's? Haven't seen those too often Britbox. Find me some Air Dirk's or Air Nash's while you're at it.
 

calitennis127

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14849 said:
Cali we are talking Air Jordan’s here. I guarantee you that plenty of white boys in this country have owned many pairs of MJ’s shoes. I’d bet the same is true for KD’s and LBJ’s shoes as well.

Of course they have, but by percentage a much higher number of blacks would be sporting J's, KD's, Iverson's, Kobe's, Wade's, or LeBron's. They are the basketball fashion trend setters.

It is amazing that I have to explain to everyone here, as if you all are children, that a pattern or a trend does not mean there is never an exception. If people here would like to tell me that whites wear urban athletic fashion at the same rate as blacks, then all I can tell you is that you are an absolute idiot.
 

britbox

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14851 said:
Air Bird’s? Haven’t seen those too often Britbox. Find me some Air Dirk’s or Air Nash’s while you’re at it.

I'm not really sure what your point is regarding who buys what footwear? Urban clothing doesn't just stop with the black community... There used to be a ton of football hooligans in the UK where "Adidas Stan Smith" was the shoe to be seen in back in the 80s. Yes, STAN SMITH! along with all the Tachini, Fila sportswear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GDK-oa_SGs
 

calitennis127

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Britbox, I was responding to Moxie's and Broken's retort that I was "stereotyping". That's all. Stereotypes are borne out of observable patterns. This doesn't mean they are 100% true all of the time for everyone from a particular group, but it does mean there is a consistent pattern which gives rise to the stereotype.

I personally have played basketball with blacks for more hours than I can count. The percentage of them who wore the "stereotypical" black basketball shoes was much higher than the percentage of whites who wore those shoes. Yes, whites wore them too, but at a noticeably lower rate. I never caught blacks wearing New Balance, which I am sure would be shocking to Moxie and Broken.
 

calitennis127

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Also, since Broken is an OKC fan, I will offer this tidbit of information. Over the summer there was an OKC player spotted in Vegas on stage with 50 Cent and Chris Brown while Chris Brown was performing one of his feminist-friendly songs. I know Broken will find this shocking - because, you know, there is no truth to mere stereotypes - but the player on stage was not Nick Collison or Steven Adams. It was Russell Westbrook. Who would have thought?

Must have just been a coincidence, like LeBron going out on stage with Jay Z and Dr Dre when he came in to the NBA.
 

Federberg

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Cali, I respect the fact you're quite open about your views even if I find some of them rather distasteful.

 

For me I find the current state of affairs in America makes uncomfortable viewing. There seems to be a post-civil rights push back. Perhaps Obama being the first black President gives people the license to think that no more needs to be done. That's patently false in my view. There is a deep well of subconscious racism that needs to be challenged. It's not even just about race, but Western privilege and entitlement. We all need to recognise in the 21st century that manifest destiny and this unearned feeling of superiority is not constructive. It shows up in the most surprising places, look at a world map and you see the continent of Africa shrunk to inflate the geographic importance of Europe (you can fit the US, China and Western Europe in Africa and still have ample room to spare). Today I watched a documentary titled 'The man who discovered Egypt.'.. what does that say when stuff like that is still being done in this day and age? These things are subtle and frankly trivial, but when you have a continuous stream of rubbish and untruths which are taken for granted every day, its not surprising that the uneducated or the uninformed have no real sense of perspective or worse a delusion about their own worth or at the perhaps a belief in the lack of worth of others. For me, such nonsense always needs to be challenged.

 

By by the way your protestations that you hang out with black people or play basketball with them and therefore know them (whatever), sounds suspiciously like the standard defence of many racists I've spoken to..."some of my best friends are black". I very much doubt it cuts much ice with many of us here..
 

Billie

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But what are you trying to say, Federberg?  That black people in USA are targeted by police, by politics?   That they don't have the same rights as white people?   They can't go to school and improve their living conditions?   How do you figure that they get passed over for promotion in work places?  I am really curios about that one, as I know it is not the case in my company (unless you think Canada is different than USA).

How about attacks on police officers?  Some are killed in the line of duty, but some were just flat out ambushed.  These below are just some bits of newsI just searched now and there are many cases like these.  How do you think they feel when they have to go to some notoriously bad parts of many American cities, where their friends and co-workers were killed?  I know how I would feel, uneasy as heck.

http://news.yahoo.com/florida-police-officer-ambushed-patrol-car-shooting-185536653.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/philadelphia-policeman-gunman-isis-1.3396403

http://www.1310news.com/2015/11/06/authorities-say-kentucky-police-officer-shot-in-head-while-searching-for-robbery-suspect-dies/

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2015/11/19/police-officer-fatally-shot-in-downey-2-suspects-at-large/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_killings_of_NYPD_officers

 

 
 

Federberg

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Before I try to answer directly it's worth pointing out that our perceptions are often subtly guided by media. In the UK, it's interesting to read certain newspapers when a person of colour has committed a crime. It's slightly different from when a similar crime is committed by a caucasian. In the case of the caucasian they might provide the individuals name, but they make no reference to race. But in the case of the Asian or the black they will make a very specific reference to race. Now the reality is that there aren't anymore crimes committed by minorities than by caucasians, but it sells copy. Why report on just another crime when you can add a subtle narrative to the story that gives it added weight?

 

Now here's the thing about crime in the United States. First and foremost violent crime is committed overwhelmingly by what you might term the underclass regardless of race. The fact that as a proportion of society African Americans are more likely to be economically disadvantaged, it shouldn't be a big surprise that a disproportionate percentage of that demographic is involved in violent crime. But that doesn't mean that African American's commit more crimes than caucasians in absolute terms. The statistics don't support that. But the media never really adds context to their reporting. If a crime is committed by African Americans it seems to immediately become an indictment of the race as a whole. Why is that? Even if in absolute terms more crimes are committed by non-African Americans and no one uses that as a opportunity to associate those crimes with some cultural or genetic flaw in those races. There is an insidious narrative that indicates that while the battle for civil rights  were won in the 60s it will take a longer time for perceptions to change. But of course that doesn't excuse the fact that a disproportionate amount of crimes are committed within the African American community. But I would throw back this question, when you look at the data, an African American is far more likely to be given a harsher sentence than someone from another race. They commit crimes that are sentenced as custodial where a caucasian would receive a non-custodial sentence for the same thing. The difference in sentencing is well known and goes beyond discussions of statistical significance. It is blatant. We now see a situation in the United States where a significant proportion of the African American community is incarcerated which has devastating social consequences. You might say that the African American community needs to get its act together, should straighten itself out, seek to advance economically and combat all of its ills. I don't have a problem with that, I agree! But here's the thing, if you're not inside that community, it's hard to understand the lack of belief a significant proportion of them have in the American dream. They don't believe they'll be given the chance to succeed. They see the evidence in racially biased sentencing decisions and are naturally pessimistic about their chances. But then what about schools and education? Again this - to me - is a function of economics. It's a fact that the schools in areas dominated by African Americans are under-resourced, that's not a sufficient excuse by itself to suggest that there shouldn't be self advancement. But I find it strange that no attention is paid to the fact that this community has faced slavery, discrimination, economic disadvantage and yet there is this expectation that all of that history can be set aside. It's going to take a lot longer than a generation.

 

And now to the police. Remember just a generation ago, police largely turned a blind eye to lynchings. It's not an easy thing within a previously oppressed community to change from perceiving your oppressor as the enemy to your protector. Look... I'm not saying that attacks against police should be forgiven. Far from it. That should carry the harshest penalty. I'm just saying that the police have made very little effort in a lot of communities to bring the communities in. The proportion of African Americans in some police forces is laughable in comparison to the population getting policed.  This has to be worked on, but I can tell you this.. when a Sarah Bland can die from a trivial traffic stop, that you can be certain wouldn't have even resulted in an arrest if it had been a blond woman in exactly the same circumstance there's a problem. I want to make one thing very clear, I'm not suggesting a free pass for the African American community. Far from it. What I reject utterly is the kind of mentality that will argue that the actions of individuals can be used to indict an entire race, that's flat out racism. My natural instinct in that scenario is to try to put forward a clearer historical context in order to have a more objective view about what's actually going on.

 

I hesitate to make any comment about the employment conditions in your workplace in Canada. You're there and I'm not. I'll only say this, you don't strike me as the sort of individual who would be particularly observant about whether discrimination is actually happening there or not. I don't mean to offend, although I accept that it's inevitable that you'll take umbrage about that comment. It's not directed at you specifically, but in general I find people don't often question a narrative which is supportive of their own personal needs. Its just human nature. I'll stop for now..
 

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"I hesitate to make any comment about the employment conditions in your workplace in Canada. You’re there and I’m not. I’ll only say this, you don’t strike me as the sort of individual who would be particularly observant about whether discrimination is actually happening there or not. I don’t mean to offend, although I accept that it’s inevitable that you’ll take umbrage about that comment. It’s not directed at you specifically, but in general I find people don’t often question a narrative which is supportive of their own personal needs. Its just human nature. I’ll stop for now.."

 

I am not offended, but your post above make me chuckle a little.  So what gives you the impression that I am not "observant" as you put it.  I am really interested to hear that.  And btw, were you ever in your life treated unfairly by others or media?    I was being discriminated against in my life so you see how funny your statement is to me.  Were you ever placed in a situation where you don't have your home, your family is displaced and your future looks very hopeless and bleak?

Also do you have any relatives or friends working in police force?  Did you ever have a chance of going or just driving through some of the poorest and most violent parts of American cities, like Detroit?

I'll tell you another thing, I am sick and tired of hearing how poor people (of any color) are not given opportunities and have to end up in crimes.  Everybody can fight for themselves and strive to start from nothing to accomplish something out of their lives.  This is from a personal experience.   And no, the color of their skin does not matter, sure some might have a rougher start and will have to work harder to prove themselves, but if somebody is willing to find the right path, they will find it.
 

Federberg

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I know it was presumptuous of me to make that statement Billie, but I'm glad that you weren't offended :) Yes I have been treated unfairly in my life.  I have experienced discrimination. No I have never been displaced. Yes I have a relative who worked in a police force. Yes I've driven through some poor and violent parts of American cities, not Detroit though.

 

Unfortunately this doesn't invalidate my assumption about you. The fact that you have had all those life experiences doesn't mean you've walked in the shoes of an African American. No offence
 

calitennis127

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15170 said:
Cali, I respect the fact you’re quite open about your views even if I find some of them rather distasteful. For me I find the current state of affairs in America makes uncomfortable viewing. There seems to be a post-civil rights push back. Perhaps Obama being the first black President gives people the license to think that no more needs to be done. That’s patently false in my view. There is a deep well of subconscious racism that needs to be challenged.

You are searching for a unicorn because your misguided moral impetus demands it of you. You have no facts. You simply have your zealous moral indignation.

15170 said:
It’s not even just about race, but Western privilege and entitlement. We all need to recognise in the 21st century that manifest destiny and this unearned feeling of superiority is not constructive.

Western civilization has been far from perfect - as you and Moxie demonstrate every time that you type something or say something. Western civilization has quite a bit to answer for in producing specimens such as yourself. In some ways, other civilizations are superior. I date someone who is dark-brown from India and in some ways her culture is superior to Western culture. I will readily concede that.

However, on the whole, Western civilization has clearly been the most accomplished, successful, and open-minded. People from all races and cultures are flocking to the West in droves nowadays, and that is because the West is objectively more successful. Islamic countries are generally poor and backward by comparison. This should not even be a conversation. The Christian West has been mores successful by a long shot than its competitors.

15170 said:
These things are subtle and frankly trivial, but when you have a continuous stream of rubbish and untruths which are taken for granted every day, its not surprising that the uneducated or the uninformed have no real sense of perspective or worse a delusion about their own worth or at the perhaps a belief in the lack of worth of others.

Sir, you are one of the uneducated and uninformed. All of your facts are wrong. You know far less than you think you do. Look in the mirror when you say "uneducated and uninformed".

15170 said:
 By by the way your protestations that you hang out with black people or play basketball with them and therefore know them (whatever), sounds suspiciously like the standard defence of many racists I’ve spoken to…”some of my best friends are black”. I very much doubt it cuts much ice with many of us here..

No, Federberg, my point in bringing up black friendships is not to placate your inane sensibilities. I could care less what you think. My point is to simply say that you are ignorant of the subjects you discuss. You clearly do not understand black people and you clearly have not been around the type of black people who get in trouble with police. I am not questioning your intentions or asking for your approval of my intentions. I am questioning your knowledge and stating, unequivocally, that on matters of race relations you are a total ignoramus. You know nothing about the issue. You clearly have not been around black urban environments. You clearly do not have any black friends who would have gotten in trouble with police at some time.

That is the issue.
 

shawnbm

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Yep, the City is doing that because the family is pursuing a wrongful death action against the municipality seeking millions. They are doing this even though the grand jury reviewed everything and ruled that no probable cause that a crime was committed. That does NOT mean a civil jury, using a lesser evidentiary standard on burden of proof, won't prevail in winning millions against the city. They very well could, but that is years down the road. Some clerk who tries to get bills paid just placed this in the ordinary payment line and it is causing a ruckus. It should not, but politically it gets a lot of attention.
 

Federberg

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It looks shockingly bad to me. "Oh dear! We've killed your son.. and by the way here's the cost for our troubles." You would expect something like that in a stand up routine, not in real life
 
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shawnbm

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No doubt, somebody dropped the ball at the city.
 

EdbergsGhost

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Before I try to answer directly it's worth pointing out that our perceptions are often subtly guided by media. In the UK, it's interesting to read certain newspapers when a person of colour has committed a crime. It's slightly different from when a similar crime is committed by a caucasian. In the case of the caucasian they might provide the individuals name, but they make no reference to race. But in the case of the Asian or the black they will make a very specific reference to race.

And for the last 15 (or so) years, here in the USA, when the crime was committed by a person of color, the media doesn't mention race. Whenever it is committed by a Caucasian, the media will mention it.

News is covered here based on whether it fits the narrative the media wants to convey. Last night in Columbus, OH, a Somali man entered a Jewish owned establishment and began hacking people to bits with a machete. ABC News dd not mention that the man was Somali and stated several times that there was no known motive.
 
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