NBA (whenever)...

[Federberg]

I know we won’t see eye to eye on this of course but longevity is a factor as is a lack of it. I kind of consider Magic one of the big what ifs in NBA history, even if there are bigger ones like Len Bias, Bill Walton and possibly others. But Magic clearly had a game that would age well and he had just finished 2nd in MVP to MJ and got a pretty mid and aging Lakers team to the Finals his last year. If he doesn’t get HIV and the team retools a bit who knows if he wins another ring or more.

With that said, I never give credit for what if, just like Borg, Fischer, etc. Magic’s career of 12 years or 12.5 if we want to talk that 1996 comeback, is what it is, and it was spectacular. The guy was just quietly dominant despite all the flair and he is the best floor general the league has seen. A comparison with LeBron’s career is difficult but I do agree Bron was always more like him than MJ. Despite LeBron being 25 years after Magic, he never was a Magic 2.0 which speaks to how great the latter was. They each have certain edges over each other game wise.

But to the original point, LeBron’s longevity is obviously great and he shouldn’t be penalized for it. The man is a vampire and the athleticism has greatly faded, still
fairly athletic but not nearly the same. I will say we won’t ever see someone make 20+ All NBA teams again, not in our lifetime. The guy has been one of the best players in the league forever and is rather obviously one of the best playoff performers the league has seen as well. And that’s why I think people have to move goalposts to keep him out of the top 5. I think it’s a classic case of people making this a popularity contest and since the whole country hates him they want to say he’s not that good. I’ve had legit arguments with people wanting to put Hakeem or Pippen ahead of him and they could have just started and ended with “I hate LeBron”

With that said, nothing he’s done pushes him past MJ, and I got KAJ ahead too. I think you could have Magic and LeBron next in either order and that’s with Magic just at 12 years.

I agree with no what ifs. But let's look at longevity. Longevity with purpose is meaningful to me. But if a journey man played 25 years and accumulated more points than Karl Malone would it mean anything? Not to me. Let me state it again.. I am not saying LeBron is a journey man. I have him in my top 10, with ease. Just not above MJ, Kobe, Kareem, Magic... and as I've said I think Steph has a case. He's on 4 after all... as far as I'm concerned, LeBron is on 3.5. Fk that bubble

Longevity matters only in the cause of winning championships. This isn't about participation. Not when we're talking about GOATs. I've seen too many games where LeBron's team has lost, and the starters are on the bench, but Bron stays out padding his stats. If that's part of what you think elevates him above the likes of Magic and Kobe then I'm not on side with that.. There's a clip on YouTube somewhere of Ty Lue berating the Cavs after a bad loss, in the playoffs I think. And LeBron pipes up and said.. "look at my stats". That says it all for me.

This is why I'll defend Halliburton. Some of his numbers haven't looked superstar level, but he's a connector. In a way, sort of like Magic. Sacrificing numbers with the purpose of winning. Look at someone like Steph. In the peak Warriors years he was often sitting out 4th quarters. Imagine what his stats would look like if he chased numbers. Nah... fk that. I would respect the longevity more if he was willing at times to let his numbers go and commit to team success. That's not him though

 

[DarthFed]

I agree with no what ifs. But let's look at longevity. Longevity with purpose is meaningful to me. But if a journey man played 25 years and accumulated more points than Karl Malone would it mean anything? Not to me. Let me state it again.. I am not saying LeBron is a journey man. I have him in my top 10, with ease. Just not above MJ, Kobe, Kareem, Magic... and as I've said I think Steph has a case. He's on 4 after all... as far as I'm concerned, LeBron is on 3.5. Fk that bubble

Longevity matters only in the cause of winning championships. This isn't about participation. Not when we're talking about GOATs. I've seen too many games where LeBron's team has lost, and the starters are on the bench, but Bron stays out padding his stats. If that's part of what you think elevates him above the likes of Magic and Kobe then I'm not on side with that.. There's a clip on YouTube somewhere of Ty Lue berating the Cavs after a bad loss, in the playoffs I think. And LeBron pipes up and said.. "look at my stats". That says it all for me.

This is why I'll defend Halliburton. Some of his numbers haven't looked superstar level, but he's a connector. In a way, sort of like Magic. Sacrificing numbers with the purpose of winning. Look at someone like Steph. In the peak Warriors years he was often sitting out 4th quarters. Imagine what his stats would look like if he chased numbers. Nah... fk that. I would respect the longevity more if he was willing at times to let his numbers go and commit to team success. That's not him though

Buddy, we are talking a guy who has averaged 27 points for 22 seasons and is still obviously going fairly strong. Every other player in league history was bum status by the time they hit 20 years which is why most of them retired. He isn’t playing to pad stats, he’s still a top 10 guy in his sleep and is trying to get another ring. And your example with Malone would mean that player wasn’t a journeyman as that player even at 25 years in the league would need to average 20+ ppg to get to that many points.

I’d say LeBron has had plenty of team success and the impact he’s had on every team is rather astronomical. And if we make everything about rings, which is a team stat, then you have to apply it evenly and you are going to get wacky results. That’d make Russell the GOAT for eternity and guys like Wilt, Big O, West, etc would be virtual nobodies, and forget about even talking about Malone, Barkley, Ewing, etc.


I am definitely not aware of LeBron saying “look at my stats” after a playoff loss. That’d be shocking and if you have that clip I would like to see it. I don’t really question the guy’s competitive streak even if it looks different than someone like MJ and Kobe. I may have said it earlier in this thread but I will just put it like this…if you tell me Player A has 4 rings, 4 FMVP’s, and 4 MVP’s while Player B has 5 rings, 2 FMVP’s and 1 regular season MVP I’m assuming Player A is greater. And in the case of LeBron vs guys like Kobe and Chef I think that gap widens significantly when we dig more into it (analytics, stats, playoffs, accolades).

But I get there is always a debate. I don’t know how those 3 do if you switch around their circumstances. To me LeBron playing with Prime Shaq and Phil Jackson his first 8 years would have likely yielded even more than 3 titles but who knows. I do think Curry playing on an absolute bum squad like LeBron did his first 7 years is not going to have the same impact LeBron had. But Curry on top of being more loyal is probably the better leader in some ways as well and winning in 2022 without a great squad elevates him a lot all-time IMO. So it’s a debate, I just think if you keep it to basketball and context LeBron is rather clearly above all but a few.

 

[Federberg]

Here it is. Some of my recollection was incorrect but it doesn’t invalidate the point.



Question for you… how would you feel about his standing if the juicing suspicions were confirmed?

 

[Federberg]

I’d say LeBron has had plenty of team success and the impact he’s had on every team is rather astronomical. And if we make everything about rings, which is a team stat, then you have to apply it evenly and you are going to get wacky results. That’d make Russell the GOAT for eternity and guys like Wilt, Big O, West, etc would be virtual nobodies, and forget about even talking about Malone, Barkley, Ewing, etc.

I don't disagree with this. Depth of competition matters which is why no one considers Margaret Court that significant. But how you win matters. There has to be a balance which what makes this topic subjective. I think we would both agree that you can't take individual accolades alone to build a case. Nor can you only take team accolades exclusively either. The right path is a blend, and the devil is in finding the right mix. Part of the problem is that there is subjectivity in some of those individual accolades. Steph not getting FMVP in 2015 is absurd, and I think most people recognise that. Rudy Gobert being a 4 time DPOY is an utter joke in an era with Draymond Green. Anyone claiming that Rudy is who you would want in a final is lying. Draymond, Giannis, Kawhi for sure... but when teams are likely to scheme to get Rudy into actions when time is running out, it makes a mockery of the DPOY. My point is that I'm not going to live and die by the exact number of individual accolades an individual gets when comparing him to someone else. To me that's lazy (I'm not calling you lazy, I'm just saying we both know some of those things could have gone elsewhere). By the way I think few of the absolute top contenders have suffered more than Kobe in this regard. I think the Denver thing led to him being overlooked a few times. My biggest problem with Lebron is HOW he got his rings. He joins a super team, gets two. Goes back and has the NBA gift him another one against Golden State. By the way, I'm deeply uncomfortable about what we just saw in game 4. If we found out there was a conspiracy to get this thing back to 2 - 2 would either of us be really surprised? I think not. I've already made it clear what I thought about the bubble. When half the competition didn't even want to be there, I'm going to look at that ring a certain type of way. The thing with Lebron is that it's never clean, but the accumulation of stats and team accolades inevitably leads to forgetting about the how, and focussing on the fact he's "achieved" what he's got. But I can honestly say I feel a darn sight more comfortable about how Kobe got his. And the fact that he did what he did post-Shaq, just like Steph pre- and post- KD... those guys are tops in my book.

 

[kskate2]

OKC one game away from the chip. The lead got down to 2 pts, but they extended it and held on for the win. I think Halli hurt his leg early in the 1st half. He didn't feature much in this one. It'll be interesting how he turns up in Indy for G6

 

[Federberg]

OKC one game away from the chip. The lead got down to 2 pts, but they extended it and held on for the win. I think Halli hurt his leg early in the 1st half. He didn't feature much in this one. It'll be interesting how he turns up in Indy for G6

yup. It's not looking good. I watched the last quarter and a half. Nemhart didn't have a good time of it. It's hard to imagine OKC not winning now.

 

[DarthFed]

Here it is. Some of my recollection was incorrect but it doesn’t invalidate the point.



Question for you… how would you feel about his standing if the juicing suspicions were confirmed?

Oh there’s no doubt he is a coach killer aside from the one great coach (Spo) that he played for. And he isn’t loyal, though I’d say that gets overblown given the circumstances. He was drafted to the worst team in the league, one that did next to nothing to improve while he was there for 7 years. They went from 66 wins his last year to immediately being the worst team in the league when he left. At the time, no one blamed him for leaving it was HOW he left with the Decision. Then he joined a great team that by the end was still solid but not great, and then he went back home to a far worse team and it still was “ring chasing”. Then that team by the end in 2018 was a YMCA club if that. And then he went to a pretty piss poor Lakers team and people of course call that “ring chasing”

Maybe some other all-time greats stay in Cleveland after 2010 and 2018 and rebuild while still being competitive just based on how great they are themselves. If I’m starting a franchise LeBron is down pretty far on the list of guys I would draft. However, that doesn’t change his standing in overall greatness to me. It may be his own doing but winning 4 with 3 separate teams and making finals with like 5-6 different coaches shows how great he is, as well as the fact he will leave your ass when he feels like it lol.

I think you know there’s a huge, huge difference between LeBron being sensitive that he was called out by Lue at halftime compared to talking about his stats after a big playoff loss. Frankly, there are a lot of great players that will be pissed if their coach singles them out like that. Everything gets magnified with LeBron.

And of course, if LeBron has been using PED’s that would be the end of his career and wouldn’t be seen as great at all…at least that’s how I’d see it and probably most as well. I know you are hoping it’s true and probably also hoping he’s involved in the Diddy mess as well lol