- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 9,755
- Reactions
- 5,122
- Points
- 113
[Jonathan Northrop] Don't Mess With The Milos
- Thread starter El Dude
- Start date
Riotbeard
Multiple Major Winner
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 4,810
- Reactions
- 12
- Points
- 38
RE: Don't Mess With The Milos
Very interesting, and a lot of good points. Two caveats, for a master 1000, his road to the canada final wasn't too bad considering he could have had to face two members of the big 4 to reach the final, and Delpo, his toughest opponent, was certainly a bit wounded. He still has a long way to go to get to Berdych's movement which is much better. Overall though I think you're right. He has done better than we give him credit for with the tools he has, and we tend to punish him for the sins of his weak generation.
A lot of us (including me) give JJ a pass on not doing much in a week to week sense on tour like Milos, because he has been better in the big matches.
El Dude said:
Very interesting, and a lot of good points. Two caveats, for a master 1000, his road to the canada final wasn't too bad considering he could have had to face two members of the big 4 to reach the final, and Delpo, his toughest opponent, was certainly a bit wounded. He still has a long way to go to get to Berdych's movement which is much better. Overall though I think you're right. He has done better than we give him credit for with the tools he has, and we tend to punish him for the sins of his weak generation.
A lot of us (including me) give JJ a pass on not doing much in a week to week sense on tour like Milos, because he has been better in the big matches.
britbox
Multiple Major Winner
RE: Don't Mess With The Milos
Thanks Dude, enjoyed the read.
It will be interesting to see how Milos evolves over the next couple of years.
Thanks Dude, enjoyed the read.
It will be interesting to see how Milos evolves over the next couple of years.
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 9,755
- Reactions
- 5,122
- Points
- 113
RE: Don't Mess With The Milos
Riotbeard, I hear you re: Canada. My point was that he didn't have an easy opponent. Even the lowly ranked Pospisil is dangerous.
And that's the thing with Milos: He might not be beating the Big Four (except Murray), but he's holding his own with the near elite players and doing well against everyone else. He's only a disappointment if we expected more than a very good player - and he's not yet 23, which still gives him a bit of growing room.
Riotbeard, I hear you re: Canada. My point was that he didn't have an easy opponent. Even the lowly ranked Pospisil is dangerous.
And that's the thing with Milos: He might not be beating the Big Four (except Murray), but he's holding his own with the near elite players and doing well against everyone else. He's only a disappointment if we expected more than a very good player - and he's not yet 23, which still gives him a bit of growing room.
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 9,755
- Reactions
- 5,122
- Points
- 113
RE: Don't Mess With The Milos
Oh yeah, and interesting point about JJ. This is where Jerzy just has the "champion vibe" to him. He shows up for big tournaments and big matches. If I had to bet money who the first new player to win an ATP 1000 would be, it would probably be Jerzy.
Oh yeah, and interesting point about JJ. This is where Jerzy just has the "champion vibe" to him. He shows up for big tournaments and big matches. If I had to bet money who the first new player to win an ATP 1000 would be, it would probably be Jerzy.
Luxilon Borg
Major Winner
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2013
- Messages
- 1,665
- Reactions
- 0
- Points
- 0
RE: Don't Mess With The Milos
Milos is just dreadful to watch. Zero rally tennis. Winner then error. Winner then error.
He makes Ivo look like Wilander.
His style is devastating for sure. But for a fan...blah...I am not big on endless matches..but an hour and fifteen minutes for 7-6, 6-3?
Watch him lose in the first round next week.
El Dude said:
Milos is just dreadful to watch. Zero rally tennis. Winner then error. Winner then error.
He makes Ivo look like Wilander.
His style is devastating for sure. But for a fan...blah...I am not big on endless matches..but an hour and fifteen minutes for 7-6, 6-3?
Watch him lose in the first round next week.
Murat Baslamisli
The GOAT
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 10,336
- Reactions
- 1,051
- Points
- 113
- Age
- 51
- Location
- Aurora, Ontario, Canada
- Website
- www.drummershangout.ca
RE: Don't Mess With The Milos
Good read Dude. For me, his willingness to attack the net and doing it at the correct times for the most part is huge. He proved today again that if you do it right, there are a lot of easy points to be won at the net.
Good read Dude. For me, his willingness to attack the net and doing it at the correct times for the most part is huge. He proved today again that if you do it right, there are a lot of easy points to be won at the net.
Moxie
Multiple Major Winner
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 42,652
- Reactions
- 13,841
- Points
- 113
RE: Don't Mess With The Milos
Nice analysis of where Milos is, to date. I do think he's putting more variety in his game, and he has had a good recent run. He's most likely to have an Isner-like career, which is not at all bad, but I don't seem him becoming an elite-level player, meaning living in the top 5.
Nice analysis of where Milos is, to date. I do think he's putting more variety in his game, and he has had a good recent run. He's most likely to have an Isner-like career, which is not at all bad, but I don't seem him becoming an elite-level player, meaning living in the top 5.
nehmeth
Grand Slam Champion
RE: Don't Mess With The Milos
:snigger The "snout" is truly dreadful to watch.
Does he make Ivo look like Wilander? I'm pretty sure that Milos has better consistency with his groundies than Karlovic, but that's not saying much.
Luxilon Borg said:
:snigger The "snout" is truly dreadful to watch.
Does he make Ivo look like Wilander? I'm pretty sure that Milos has better consistency with his groundies than Karlovic, but that's not saying much.
Moxie
Multiple Major Winner
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 42,652
- Reactions
- 13,841
- Points
- 113
RE: Don't Mess With The Milos
Hey, nehmeth:
Don't you think that Raonic has been mixing it up a bit more in the last couple of months? Coming to the net more, for example. He's not my favorite, but it does seem that he's making an effort at a more rounded game.
nehmeth said:
Hey, nehmeth:
Don't you think that Raonic has been mixing it up a bit more in the last couple of months? Coming to the net more, for example. He's not my favorite, but it does seem that he's making an effort at a more rounded game.
brokenshoelace
Grand Slam Champion
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 9,380
- Reactions
- 1,334
- Points
- 113
RE: Don't Mess With The Milos
His movement is ultimately too sub-par to play the way he seems to want to play. In other words, if you take a look at guys like Karlovic or Isner, they recognize their limitations and adjust their games accordingly. Karlovic has virtually no movement and no backhand. As a result, he serves and volleys, slices his backhand until eventually following it to the net (even if it's an awful approach), and just flatten the hell out of his forehand. His main goal from behind the baseline is to find his way into the net.
Isner's limiations are obvious not nearly as severe. However, he too, plays to his strengths really well (I don't necessarily enjoy it but I respect it). He'll look for every opportunity to run around his forehand, and just plays a generally super aggressive game. His backhand is shaky and doesn't allow him to consistently hit big off of that wing though, but at least when I watch Isner, even against the big guns (especially against the big guns?), I get the sense that he at least knows how he wants to approach the match.
With Raonic, against the top 4, I don't get that sense at all. I feel like he struggles to use his serve assertively for whatever reason (and that is about 85% of his game within that context), and is just too lost from behind the baseline. He's not an all out attacking player (which is not to say that he's not aggressive), but his movement and backhand don't allow him to play from behind the baseline against these guys. Even when it comes to the forehand, I actually feel Isner does a better of finding a way to hit it (ie running around the backhand) with more consistency and does fewer errors too.
The problem for Roanic in that regard, is that against lesser guys, he can construct points, play aggressively, and finish off points at the net, and this seems to be his comfort zone. But that is almost counterproductive, because once he's up against the elite, he can't do that, and just looks lost.
His movement is ultimately too sub-par to play the way he seems to want to play. In other words, if you take a look at guys like Karlovic or Isner, they recognize their limitations and adjust their games accordingly. Karlovic has virtually no movement and no backhand. As a result, he serves and volleys, slices his backhand until eventually following it to the net (even if it's an awful approach), and just flatten the hell out of his forehand. His main goal from behind the baseline is to find his way into the net.
Isner's limiations are obvious not nearly as severe. However, he too, plays to his strengths really well (I don't necessarily enjoy it but I respect it). He'll look for every opportunity to run around his forehand, and just plays a generally super aggressive game. His backhand is shaky and doesn't allow him to consistently hit big off of that wing though, but at least when I watch Isner, even against the big guns (especially against the big guns?), I get the sense that he at least knows how he wants to approach the match.
With Raonic, against the top 4, I don't get that sense at all. I feel like he struggles to use his serve assertively for whatever reason (and that is about 85% of his game within that context), and is just too lost from behind the baseline. He's not an all out attacking player (which is not to say that he's not aggressive), but his movement and backhand don't allow him to play from behind the baseline against these guys. Even when it comes to the forehand, I actually feel Isner does a better of finding a way to hit it (ie running around the backhand) with more consistency and does fewer errors too.
The problem for Roanic in that regard, is that against lesser guys, he can construct points, play aggressively, and finish off points at the net, and this seems to be his comfort zone. But that is almost counterproductive, because once he's up against the elite, he can't do that, and just looks lost.
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 9,755
- Reactions
- 5,122
- Points
- 113
RE: Don't Mess With The Milos
Good stuff, Broken. It supports my view that Raonic's absolute ceiling is of a "near-elite" (#6-10ish) player, and maybe not even that, at least on a consistent basis. He hasn't quite gotten there - but his recent victories over Del Potro and Berdych are promising (Juan Martin's injury aside). But to be in the true elite, you simply must have a more diverse game and be able to adapt.
The Karlovic and Isner comparisons are interesting - although, in the end, results should mean something. Ivo reached #14, but not until his late 20s. Milos is already 5-6 years ahead of him in terms of developmental timeline. Ultimately Ivo isn't a good comparison, except as a vaguely similar player. Milos is just a better all-around player.
Isner is a bit closer, although Milos is also quite a bit ahead of the big American developmentally. John started a rapid ascent in the rankings at age 24, first reaching the top 20 about a month before turning 25. He hung out in the #18-35 range for a couple years before rising last year to as high as #9. He's been a fixture in the top 20 for about two years now and hung out in the #9-11 range for about eight months last year before falling back a bit again.
Milos made a big jump into the #20-40 range at age 20, and then breached the top 20 for good at age 21, a few months before turning 22 last year. So he's only been in the top 20 for a little over a year and has gradually edged his way up.
If the elite of the game are people that, as Broken said, "live in the top 5," and the near-elite live in the top 10, there's a third tier that live in the top 20 - and that's John Isner, whereas a 4th tier player is more like a top 40-50 player (Karlovic during his prime). What I think remains to be seen about Raonic is if he's going to be a 2nd or 3rd tier player, as the 1st tier seems unlikely. Given his young age, I wouldn't bet against him being a legit 2nd tier player. In fact, I fully expect him to be a fixture in the top 10 for a few years to come.
Ultimately the proof is in the pudding. His game may not be pretty, but overall he's quite effective - more effective (thus far) than the prettier Grigor Dimitrov. Milos has been a bit of a punching bag of late, especially after the Canada Masters, but he's still the #11 player in the world and the highest ranked player born in the 90s. I'm guessing that at some point next year, Jerzy Janowicz and perhaps Dimitrov and just maybe Bernard Tomic will be right there with him, but for now he's the most successful of the Young Guns.
Good stuff, Broken. It supports my view that Raonic's absolute ceiling is of a "near-elite" (#6-10ish) player, and maybe not even that, at least on a consistent basis. He hasn't quite gotten there - but his recent victories over Del Potro and Berdych are promising (Juan Martin's injury aside). But to be in the true elite, you simply must have a more diverse game and be able to adapt.
The Karlovic and Isner comparisons are interesting - although, in the end, results should mean something. Ivo reached #14, but not until his late 20s. Milos is already 5-6 years ahead of him in terms of developmental timeline. Ultimately Ivo isn't a good comparison, except as a vaguely similar player. Milos is just a better all-around player.
Isner is a bit closer, although Milos is also quite a bit ahead of the big American developmentally. John started a rapid ascent in the rankings at age 24, first reaching the top 20 about a month before turning 25. He hung out in the #18-35 range for a couple years before rising last year to as high as #9. He's been a fixture in the top 20 for about two years now and hung out in the #9-11 range for about eight months last year before falling back a bit again.
Milos made a big jump into the #20-40 range at age 20, and then breached the top 20 for good at age 21, a few months before turning 22 last year. So he's only been in the top 20 for a little over a year and has gradually edged his way up.
If the elite of the game are people that, as Broken said, "live in the top 5," and the near-elite live in the top 10, there's a third tier that live in the top 20 - and that's John Isner, whereas a 4th tier player is more like a top 40-50 player (Karlovic during his prime). What I think remains to be seen about Raonic is if he's going to be a 2nd or 3rd tier player, as the 1st tier seems unlikely. Given his young age, I wouldn't bet against him being a legit 2nd tier player. In fact, I fully expect him to be a fixture in the top 10 for a few years to come.
Ultimately the proof is in the pudding. His game may not be pretty, but overall he's quite effective - more effective (thus far) than the prettier Grigor Dimitrov. Milos has been a bit of a punching bag of late, especially after the Canada Masters, but he's still the #11 player in the world and the highest ranked player born in the 90s. I'm guessing that at some point next year, Jerzy Janowicz and perhaps Dimitrov and just maybe Bernard Tomic will be right there with him, but for now he's the most successful of the Young Guns.
JesuslookslikeBorg
Grand Slam Champion
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 6,323
- Reactions
- 1,074
- Points
- 113
RE: Don't Mess With The Milos
I don't agree, milos is improving his rallying and his vollyg is improving, his more attacking approach via his new coach has helped a lot in his court positioning,
I can see milos winning big trophys and being top5 possibly.
I don't agree, milos is improving his rallying and his vollyg is improving, his more attacking approach via his new coach has helped a lot in his court positioning,
I can see milos winning big trophys and being top5 possibly.
nehmeth
Grand Slam Champion
RE: Don't Mess With The Milos
Hopefully any player in the top 100 is continually trying to improve their game. I would hope with the vested interest of an entire country and potentially lucrative endorsements, that he will do everything within his skill set to become a better player.
Moxie629 said:
Hopefully any player in the top 100 is continually trying to improve their game. I would hope with the vested interest of an entire country and potentially lucrative endorsements, that he will do everything within his skill set to become a better player.