Dominance of the Big Three

DarthFed

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Oh please, this fucking revisionist history. Even if Murray was overrated, there is absolutely zero doubt he constituted tough competition by any metric. Look at the guy's resume. WTF more do you want?

Murray was 5-20 in majors against the Big 3. He was a big threat to them in best of 3 but not best of 5. So strong resume at MS and forgettable one at majors adds up to what? Nothing special.
 
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don_fabio

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I looked a bit more on Murray.

He is 0/3 W/L in Wimbledon against Nadal (7-17 in total). They played 08, 10, 11, Murray only won a single set in 2011. I feel he could have done better and win at least one match on grass. He pushed Nadal in AO 07, won in USO 08, won in AO 10, but failed in Wimbledon in all 3 attempts which is disappointing. He played 9 times against Nadal in slams, 4 matches went to more than 3 sets

He is 11-14 against Fed, the only player to beat Fed that many times (11) except the big 3 so I give him big props for that. It's interesting how he owned Fed until 2009, but later Fed dominated. Murray's domination against Fed comes mostly from bo3 matches and a 3 set win in USO 08.

He is 11-25 against Novak. They haven't met in the major until AO 11 which I find surprising. They met 5 times there after it and he never won against the serb, but it feels like Novak was the guy he pushed the most out of the big3 at least on the slams even their h2h is way apart. They played 7 matches that went in more than 3 sets and against Fed only 3, but he played 10 slam matches against Novak and 6 against Fed.

He has positive h2h against Wawrinka 11-8, but they are tied 3-3 in slams.

Well, he got some revenge wins in olympic tournament in 2012 London, he beat Novak and Fed. It would be better for tennis if Murray was slightly more competitive in slams. It is what it is, I hope he is happy with a new hip. He should play doubles with a brother until 40+ years old like Paes, Zimonjic, Mirnyi and those guys and win reamining slams he only dreamt of.
 

brokenshoelace

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Murray was 5-20 in majors against the Big 3. He was a big threat to them in best of 3 but not best of 5. So strong resume at MS and forgettable one at majors adds up to what? Nothing special.

What was Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, etc...'s h2h records vs. Roger?

If that's the criteria then the argument cuts both ways.

I agree with your point re: Murray vs the big 3, in that he really didn't challenge them enough at majors. In fact, in addition to a very poor h2h record vs. them, the matches themselves weren't that competitive. With the exception of 3 five setters vs. Nadal, Novak and Roger respectively (all at the AO), he often lost very routinely. He got straight setted a few times, or, more commonly, he would win the first set, then they would figure him out and pretty straightforwardly handle him for the next 3.

That however, doesn't mean he was nothing special. His resume is pretty phenomenal no matter which way you slice it. Choosing to look at h2h over a laundry list of achievements is ridiculous.
 
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DarthFed

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What was Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, etc...'s h2h records vs. Roger?

If that's the criteria then the argument cuts both ways.

I agree with your point re: Murray vs the big 3, in that he really didn't challenge them enough at majors. In fact, in addition to a very poor h2h record vs. them, the matches themselves weren't that competitive. With the exception of 3 five setters vs. Nadal, Novak and Roger respectively (all at the AO), he often lost very routinely. He got straight setted a few times, or, more commonly, he would win the first set, then they would figure him out and pretty straightforwardly handle him for the next 3.

That however, doesn't mean he was nothing special. His resume is pretty phenomenal no matter which way you slice it. Choosing to look at h2h over a laundry list of achievements is ridiculous.

He was better than Safin, Roddick, etc. No argument there but he just wasn't better by such an amount to be anywhere near as tough of competition as some Djokovic fans would claim. His (non-slam) resume is pretty phenomenal I think you mean. That "laundry list" is everything aside from the biggest events.
 

GameSetAndMath

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Murray - Stan <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Any of Big Three - Murray.

Case closed.

In order for Murray to be special and called part of big four or "best of the rest", it should be the case that

(Murray - any other player) is comparable to (Any of Big Three - Murray).
 

Moxie

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He was better than Safin, Roddick, etc. No argument there but he just wasn't better by such an amount to be anywhere near as tough of competition as some Djokovic fans would claim. His (non-slam) resume is pretty phenomenal I think you mean. That "laundry list" is everything aside from the biggest events.
You've mentioned this "agenda" from Djokovic fans before about wanting to make more of Murray as "competition." But aren't you kind of really just doing the opposite? I.e., slagging Murray to diminish him as competition? If you could leave that alone, I think you can admit that, for a guy playing in this era, he held his own better than anyone else.
 

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I looked a bit more on Murray.

He is 0/3 W/L in Wimbledon against Nadal (7-17 in total). They played 08, 10, 11, Murray only won a single set in 2011. I feel he could have done better and win at least one match on grass. He pushed Nadal in AO 07, won in USO 08, won in AO 10, but failed in Wimbledon in all 3 attempts which is disappointing. He played 9 times against Nadal in slams, 4 matches went to more than 3 sets

He is 11-14 against Fed, the only player to beat Fed that many times (11) except the big 3 so I give him big props for that. It's interesting how he owned Fed until 2009, but later Fed dominated. Murray's domination against Fed comes mostly from bo3 matches and a 3 set win in USO 08.

He is 11-25 against Novak. They haven't met in the major until AO 11 which I find surprising. They met 5 times there after it and he never won against the serb, but it feels like Novak was the guy he pushed the most out of the big3 at least on the slams even their h2h is way apart. They played 7 matches that went in more than 3 sets and against Fed only 3, but he played 10 slam matches against Novak and 6 against Fed.

He has positive h2h against Wawrinka 11-8, but they are tied 3-3 in slams.

Well, he got some revenge wins in olympic tournament in 2012 London, he beat Novak and Fed. It would be better for tennis if Murray was slightly more competitive in slams. It is what it is, I hope he is happy with a new hip. He should play doubles with a brother until 40+ years old like Paes, Zimonjic, Mirnyi and those guys and win reamining slams he only dreamt of.
Murray lost to Federer in 3 sets at the US Open in 2008.
 

El Dude

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Regardless of what word best describes Andy Murray's historical status, this debate just furthers the point that he not only has held an interesting position during this era, but also historically...has he been the "worst of the best" or the "best of the rest?" Is he the least of the greats or is he more the best of the non-greats? That depends upon how you want to look at it; I think both are true.

The most comparable player to him, in terms of historical ranking, is Guillermo Vilas, who was especially dominant on clay, won 4 Slams and 62 titles and is undoubtedly the greatest player never to rank #1 (although there is some controversy about 1977, when he won 16 titles and 2 Slams but finished #2 behind Connors, who didn't win any Slams and only 8 titles, but reached two Slam finals and won both the ATP and WCT finals, whil most of Vilas' titles were very low level). Vilas was generally overshadowed by Connors, Borg, McEnroe, and Lendl - but he was always there, in the mix, with year-end rankings of #6 or better from 1974-82.

Jim Courier is another comp, but he had a rather different career: more of a higher, but far shorter peak, but overall a weaker resume. He's more similar to Lleyton Hewitt. Ilie Nastase and Arthur Ashe are also comparable, but lesser to Murray in terms of career records.

Above Murray you have the cadre of "lesser greats" like John Newcombe, Mats Wilander, Stefan Edberg and Boris Becker. If you get past Slam count, Andy's overall career is close to these guys. In fact, if you replace "Slam titles" to "Slam finals," Andy's career is better than Wilander's. Now Andy did only win 3 Slams to their 6-7, so in the end probably has to be ranked lower, but it is far closer than Slam titles would entail.

In the end, I'd probably put rank Murray right between Wilander and Vilas on the Open Era list. I think it is clear that he's one of the 20 greatest players of the last 50 years, although not one of the 10. Is that "special?" I'd say yes. But specialness isn't either or; it is a matter of degree. The only way we can really say he's "nothing special" is if our definition of "special" is Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic, but then we're left saying that Pete Sampras and Bjorn Borg were "kind of special."
 
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Moxie

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^ This is a very good post, both for historical context, and otherwise fairness. The notion that Murray was "nothing special" falls somewhere between mean-spirited, agenda-driven and delusional. As you address above, there was for a long time where we felt Murray fell into his own category, which I think most subscribed to. Once Djokovic streaked ahead of him, Murray seemed to occupy a territory all his own...not Fedalovic, but better than the rest. I think you put him correctly, historically, to say below Vilas, but ahead of Wilander. Not bad company. And I will go with what @don_fabio mentioned above. It may not mean everything in the world to everyone that he won 2 gold medals at the Olympics, for Britain, or that he became the first British man to win Wimbledon in 77 years (I think it was,) and then he won it again. That all given the pressure from the British press, and the Big 3. He deprived Roger of a Gold Medal, Novak of the 2012 USO, and in 2016, the YEC, and YE#1. Maybe some of these can be seen as flourishes, but in the context within which he was playing, I think they were great achievements.
 

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^ I think you put him correctly, historically, to say below Vilas, but ahead of Wilander.

On my.

Ahead of Wilander?

Beg to differ.

Matt’s won 7 Majors , including 2 grass, 3 clay, and 2 HC. Along with Nadal he’s the only Open ATP player to win Majors twice on all three surfaces.

Let’s not forget he won 3 Majors in 1988 to take the #1 ranking from Lendl for the year.
I’ll never forget him rushing to net in that 88 USO final versus Ivan and thinking “ is that the same moon balling baseliner from early in his career? WTF. Still the biggest transformation I’ve seen in a top player.

ETA: can’t forget his leading Sweden to 3, count em, 3 Davis Cup wins.
 

Moxie

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On my.

Ahead of Wilander?

Beg to differ.

Matt’s won 7 Majors , including 2 grass, 3 clay, and 2 HC. Along with Nadal he’s the only Open ATP player to win Majors twice on all three surfaces.

Let’s not forget he won 3 Majors in 1988 to take the #1 ranking from Lendl for the year.
I’ll never forget him rushing to net in that 88 USO final versus Ivan and thinking “ is that the same moon balling baseliner from early in his career? WTF. Still the biggest transformation I’ve seen in a top player.

ETA: can’t forget his leading Sweden to 3, count em, 3 Davis Cup wins.
Fair enough...I thought he had only 3. Don't know where that came from. :)
 

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^I was assuming you mean ahead of Vilas but behind Wilander? That's where I'd put him.
 

Moxie

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^I was assuming you mean ahead of Vilas but behind Wilander? That's where I'd put him.
I'm sure that's what I meant. :) I can be sloppy with the details, but I think you get me on the big points. (I didn't watch tennis at all in the 80s and 90s, so there's a whole raft of players that blur together for me.) Not Vilas...I loved him. But Wilander...he's just a name to me.
 
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GameSetAndMath

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I'm sure that's what I meant. :) I can be sloppy with the details, but I think you get me on the big points. (I didn't watch tennis at all in the 80s and 90s, so there's a whole raft of players that blur together for me.) Not Vilas...I loved him. But Wilander...he's just a name to me.

That is because your mind is full of clay. That is why you thought Wilander had won only three slams.
 
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Jelenafan

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I'm sure that's what I meant. :) I can be sloppy with the details, but I think you get me on the big points. (I didn't watch tennis at all in the 80s and 90s, so there's a whole raft of players that blur together for me.) Not Vilas...I loved him. But Wilander...he's just a name to me.

Gotcha, whereas he was very impressive to me because he beat Lendl on Clay and HC, and Stefan Edberg, Pat Cash & Johnny MAC on grass, who were as good as you got on those surfaces back in the day. All in all. He made it to 11 Majors, so his 7-4 record isn’t shabby.

His rep has dimmed a bit because he burned out and fell off dramatically Peytonesque once he finally got up to #1 in 1988. Rumors swirled at the time (ala “lines on the mirror”) but just like that he was never again a factor.
 
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don_fabio

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Murray lost to Federer in 3 sets at the US Open in 2008.
Aah, too many numbers and names last night.

Just to add on Murray's achievements, the guy is a Sir and a Knight. You can't beat that.
 
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DarthFed

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You've mentioned this "agenda" from Djokovic fans before about wanting to make more of Murray as "competition." But aren't you kind of really just doing the opposite? I.e., slagging Murray to diminish him as competition? If you could leave that alone, I think you can admit that, for a guy playing in this era, he held his own better than anyone else.

Well you can look at it that way. I think my point about his play at majors stands. Novak lost to Murray twice in his prime in finals and also lost 3 times to Stan. IMO that's what separates Roger's prime to Novak since they often get compared in terms of dominance. Roger simply didn't lose as much especially on the big stage and especially not to those who weren't ATG.
 

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Well you can look at it that way. I think my point about his play at majors stands. Novak lost to Murray twice in his prime in finals and also lost 3 times to Stan. IMO that's what separates Roger's prime to Novak since they often get compared in terms of dominance. Roger simply didn't lose as much especially on the big stage and especially not to those who weren't ATG.

Pssst, I wouldn’t necessarily want to remind everyone that the Fedster didn’t lose to Roddick, Lleyton, etc in a Major. Stan and Andy are ATG compared to the Roddicks of the world.
 

DarthFed

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Pssst, I wouldn’t necessarily want to remind everyone that the Fedster didn’t lose to Roddick, Lleyton, etc in a Major. Stan and Andy are ATG compared to the Roddicks of the world.

Psst, you may want to look at Roger's slam record against Stan and Murray and note the 1 loss to each was 2013 and 2015 respectively. Put Roger in his prime against those guys 10 times in majors spread out amongst the 4 what would we expect his record to be? 17-3 would be disappointing
 

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Well you can look at it that way. I think my point about his play at majors stands. Novak lost to Murray twice in his prime in finals and also lost 3 times to Stan. IMO that's what separates Roger's prime to Novak since they often get compared in terms of dominance. Roger simply didn't lose as much especially on the big stage and especially not to those who weren't ATG.

What would you consider to be prime Roger? He lost to Nalbandian in 2003 at the USO, Kuerten in 2004 at RG, Safin in 2005 at the AO, JMDP in 2009 at the USO, Soderling in 2010 at RG, Berdych in 2010 at Wimbledon, Tsonga in 2011 at Wimbledon, etc.

No matter what, though, you’re right — he rarely lost at majors, especially considering how many he won during that same period.