Carlito's Way - Carlos Alcaraz Talk

don_fabio

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Just thought a spanish dude should have his own topic here so we can drop thoughts/news about him and his career.
Haven't seen any topic for him.

I have one question about his height and how accurate it is.

He was first listed as 1.85 m tall and then he has been downsized for about an inch and it says he is now 1.83 m tall.
Does this look accurate or is he even smaller than that? Would be nice to see some photos as a comparison between players when their pics are taken at the net.

Is he going to suffer in his career with injuries by putting a lot of extra stress on his slightly smaller frame. We know how agressive he plays.
Just as an example, can his height come in a way as a crucial factor between winning 5 slams or 15 slams?

Seems like a perfect player in 2020s would be slightly taller than 1.90 m and Alcaraz is almost/about 10 cm less than that.
 

Nadalfan2013

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He will land somewhere between GOATdal and Djokovic in terms of greatness. So I'd say 22 slams and an Olympics silver medal for Alcaraz. :good:
 

MargaretMcAleer

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Just thought a spanish dude should have his own topic here so we can drop thoughts/news about him and his career.
Haven't seen any topic for him.

I have one question about his height and how accurate it is.

He was first listed as 1.85 m tall and then he has been downsized for about an inch and it says he is now 1.83 m tall.
Does this look accurate or is he even smaller than that? Would be nice to see some photos as a comparison between players when their pics are taken at the net.

Is he going to suffer in his career with injuries by putting a lot of extra stress on his slightly smaller frame. We know how agressive he plays.
Just as an example, can his height come in a way as a crucial factor between winning 5 slams or 15 slams?

Seems like a perfect player in 2020s would be slightly taller than 1.90 m and Alcaraz is almost/about 10 cm less than that.
Don,
I just went and saw that Alcaraz height is still listed at 1.85m and his weight is 74 kg I just google his name to find out the info, if that is correct his height to his weights is fine, though he seems more muscular to me, since I first saw him play.
 

don_fabio

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Don,
I just went and saw that Alcaraz height is still listed at 1.85m and his weight is 74 kg I just google his name to find out the info, if that is correct his height to his weights is fine, though he seems more muscular to me, since I first saw him play.
ATP says 1.83 m. Yeah, he gained muscles since he just came on tour.
 

MargaretMcAleer

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ATP says 1.83 m. Yeah, he gained muscles since he just came on tour.
I was just about to say I went to the ATP and saw he was 1.83m, when I googled him it said 1.85 lol!
In regards to his weight which is fine at present with his height at 1.83m, he is only 19 years of age, actually my brother who is 6ft 5in, grew 2 inches between 19 and 21 years of age, though he has always been 'lean' in his body structure.I think he needs to get into the gym for strength exercises especially for his legs, not to put on muscle, more of a protection going forward in his career, seeing at present he is having leg issues,. I will have to think a bit more regarding how many slams he might win going forward in his career.
 
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Kieran

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I was just about to say I went to the ATP and saw he was 1.83m, when I googled him it said 1.85 lol!
In regards to his weight which is fine at present with his height at 1.83m, he is only 19 years of age, actually my brother who is 6ft 5in, grew 2 inches between 19 and 21 years of age, though he has always been 'lean' in his body structure.I think he needs to get into the gym for strength exercises especially for his legs, not to put on muscle, more of a protection going forward in his career, seeing at present he is having leg issues,. I will have to think a bit more regarding how many slams he might win going forward in his career.
Yeah he’s definitely not the same height as Rafa - 1.85. Pictures of them together put him a little smaller.
 

Kieran

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Just thought a spanish dude should have his own topic here so we can drop thoughts/news about him and his career.
Haven't seen any topic for him.

I have one question about his height and how accurate it is.

He was first listed as 1.85 m tall and then he has been downsized for about an inch and it says he is now 1.83 m tall.
Does this look accurate or is he even smaller than that? Would be nice to see some photos as a comparison between players when their pics are taken at the net.

Is he going to suffer in his career with injuries by putting a lot of extra stress on his slightly smaller frame. We know how agressive he plays.
Just as an example, can his height come in a way as a crucial factor between winning 5 slams or 15 slams?

Seems like a perfect player in 2020s would be slightly taller than 1.90 m and Alcaraz is almost/about 10 cm less than that.
I love him. I think he’s an authentic star and so far he’s showing warrior credentials. He’s a mix of all the virtues of the Big 3, talent-wise, and he’s by far the most exciting player to watch right now.

Hopefully he keeps it up!
 

El Dude

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@Kieran makes a good point, though. As I've said elsewhere, our expectations are collectively ruined by the Big Three who have set the bar for greatness at an unreasonable level. The chances of a player, whether Alcaraz or Rune or some five-year old picking up a racket for the first time, matching the career resumes of the Big Three are exceedingly slim. Maybe someday, but my point is that we should put them out of our minds in terms of expectations. Not only is it unfair to those young players, but it sets us up for disappointment and gives us a skewed view of what tennis greatness actually means.

Alcaraz made a stir for being the first teenager to win a Slam since Rafa and, despite being greatly assisted by ATP regulatory wonkiness, also became the youngest ever #1 player. But as Kieran implied, teenagers winning Slams really runs the gamut from Michael Chang to Rafael Nadal and Bjorn Borg. There's a lot of possible outcomes between those poles. For instance, Boris Becker and Mats Wilander.

Oh, and there's nothing wrong with Michael Chang or Lleyton Hewitt for that matter, both of whom had excellent careers and are among the top 25 players or so of the Open Era.

That said, if Alcaraz ends up as another Chang, it is reasonable to be disappointed. For one, that's a lot of Slam-less years ahead, but more so, he's just a more dangerous player than Chang was. I was only a casual fan of tennis in Hewitt's prime, but my sense is that his reign was really a combination of him being just good enough--and pesky enough--to making playing him difficult, and peaking during that weak period between Pete's fall and Roger's ascendency. Alcaraz is playing at a similar time, but with no clear Roger/Rafa on the horizon. And really, he's as good a candidate to be the Next Guy as anyone, with Rune being the only other guy who seems likely destined for some flavor of greatness (this isn't to right others off, just that the likelihood of anyone else currently playing is probably less than even that they'll end up as true ATGs...but who knows, maybe Medvedev has a dominant run that gets him to 5+ Slams, or maybe FAA puts it altogether, etc).

But my point being, we shouldn't expect Alcaraz (or Rune) to be Roger and Rafa, simply because that's what our recent expected standard of greatness entails.

I sometimes like to ask the question: Who among active players will have the best career from this point onward? To me the answer is Alcaraz, followed closely by Rune, then a cluster of Medvedev, Tsitsipas, and maybe Djokovic (as far as Slam count is concerned, at least), then guys like Sinner and FAA. But I'd still put the over/under on career Slams for Alcaraz (and Rune) somewhere around 3-4, the other guys I mentioned, maybe 1-2. This isn't because I don't think they won't win 6+ Slams, just that until they get to 2 or 3, my expectations are somewhat restrained.

Meaning, there's a great funneling in terms of Slams, that separates the almost-greats from the true greats. We can see this with Slam counts of the Open Era:

20+ Slams: 3 players
10-19 Slams: 2 players
5-9 Slams: 9 players
2-4 Slams: 16 players
1 Slam: 28 players

Or to make a chart (how could I resist?):

Screen Shot 2023-03-07 at 3.20.09 PM.png

Nothing fancy, just a "five minute chart." But what I like about it is that it illustrates two things:

1. The rarity of 10+ Slams, let alone 20+. Only five players have won double-digit Slams in the Open Era, and only three 20+. If we go back before the Open Era and consider all "majors"--including pro Slams and ILTF majors, we only add one player to the 20+ club--Ken Rosewall--and a handful of others to the double-digits club: Rod Laver, Roy Emerson, Pancho Gonzales, Don Budge, Bill Tilden, and Henri Cochet. Meaning, on 100+ years of professional tennis (and 140ish years of tennis overall) there are only 10 men who have won double-digit majors.

2. Most Slam winners exist on gradual curve. The chart shows the gradual curve from 1 to 8, then the big jump to 11, then 14, then 20+. Meaning, it shows us how the Big Three, but really also Borg and Sampras, dominated Slams in a way that simply disrupted the normal curve.

The point being, in terms of young talent coming up and assessing whether they join the ranks of 58 Open Era Slam winners, we should really only be considering where they might end up on the 1-8 spectrum. If and when someone reaches, say, 5 Slams before turning 25, then I think it becomes reasonable whether they can join the exclusive "Double-Digit Slam Club."
 

El Dude

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El Dude

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Let's look at a few other all-time greats - that is, when they won their 100th match, their age, and record.

Roger Federer (October of 2001, and his last win that year - Basel SF, age 20): 100-71
Novak Djokovic (July of 2007 at Umag, age 20): 100-43
Pete Sampras (Early August at Los Angeles final, just shy of his 20th birthday): 100-57
Bjorn Borg (during Rome in May of 1974 just before turning 18): 100-47

Meanwhile, Holger Rune is quite a bit behind: he's 57-41, but almost certainly will win his 100th match before his 21st birthday in April of 2024.
 
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Moxie

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Let's look at a few other all-time greats - that is, when they won their 100th match, their age, and record.

Roger Federer (October of 2001, and his last win that year - Basel SF, age 20): 100-71
Novak Djokovic (July of 2007 at Umag, age 20): 100-43
Pete Sampras (Early August at Los Angeles final, just shy of his 20th birthday): 100-57
Bjorn Borg (during Rome in May of 1974 just before turning 18): 100-47

Meanwhile, Holger Rune is quite a bit behind: he's 57-41, but almost certainly will win his 100th match before his 21st birthday in April of 2024.
I know you've run some stats on indicators of potential greatness, but this has to be one, right? Look at the company he's in. Also well-pointed out where Rune is. I'm suspecting a bit of snark, but I don't mind. :face-with-tears-of-joy:
 

El Dude

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I know you've run some stats on indicators of potential greatness, but this has to be one, right? Look at the company he's in. Also well-pointed out where Rune is. I'm suspecting a bit of snark, but I don't mind. :face-with-tears-of-joy:
No snark. I think it might be one of those things that indicates likely greatness, but obviously isn't a requirement (as evinced by the much slower starts of Novak, Roger, etc). The benchmarks I found were things that all greats had reached at certain ages. Of active young players, Alcaraz has already met all of them, while Rune is on his way. I think Sinner still has a chance to meet all of them (will have to re-check), but everyone else has missed at least one.

At this point, I don't think it is a question of whether or not Alcaraz will be great, but how great: on the "Courier-to-Big Three Spectrum." Meaning, Courier as a "partial" or "lesser-great," and the Big Three as stratospheric greats.
 
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Kieran

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No snark. I think it might be one of those things that indicates likely greatness, but obviously isn't a requirement (as evinced by the much slower starts of Novak, Roger, etc). The benchmarks I found were things that all greats had reached at certain ages. Of active young players, Alcaraz has already met all of them, while Rune is on his way. I think Sinner still has a chance to meet all of them (will have to re-check), but everyone else has missed at least one.

At this point, I don't think it is a question of whether or not Alcaraz will be great, but how great: on the "Courier-to-Big Three Spectrum." Meaning, Courier as a "partial" or "lesser-great," and the Big Three as stratospheric greats.
I think it’s possible to be as great as the Big 3 in future but not win anything as near as many slams. Remember, their records are driven by having a real time rivalry with each other, prolonging their careers into methuselah territory, but aided by a relatively uninteresting and often feeble field, which made it likely that a Big 3 star would win every slam they entered.

Future fields may not be so compliant, they might be as tough as the field in the 80’s and 90’s, and the rivalries necessary to create Big 3 records might just not be there.

In other words, future greats might work in a different, more predatory ecological system, but might not be any lesser than what we have now…
 
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El Dude

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I think it’s possible to be as great as the Big 3 in future but not win anything as near as many slams. Remember, their records are driven by having a real time rivalry with each other, prolonging their careers into methuselah territory, but aided by a relatively uninteresting and often feeble field, which made it likely that a Big 3 star would win every slam they entered.

Future fields may not be so compliant, they might be as tough as the field in the 80’s and 90’s, and the rivalries necessary to create Big 3 records might just not be there.

In other words, future greats might work in a different, more predatory ecological system, but might not be any lesser than what we have now…
Yes, agreed. Borg and McEnroe were as dominant, if for shorter periods of time - especially if you consider the less "Slam-centric" nature of the 70s-80s and statistics like Elo. I think you could argue that Sampras, Lendl, and Connors weren't far behind at their very best.

On the other hand, what you point out is part of the unique greatness of the Big Three, each with their own version of it: the way each of them bounced back after the typical early 30s decline, and had a nice plateau of "lesser dominance" into their mid-30s, remaining relevant (presumably) into their late 30s.

Anyhow, I'm excited about the dawning new era. Even if Novak and Rafa hang out for a bit longer, we're seeing a different tour forming. I do think that Alcaraz, and perhaps Rune, will be the player(s) to beat in the dawning era, but the gap between them and a half a dozen others will be smaller, leading to both more rivalries and greater parity of big title winners. Or at least that's how it looks now. Woe to the rest of the tour if and when Alcaraz takes another leap forward, or Rune two leaps forward.
 
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Carlos makes a loud grunting noise after EVERY shot---reminds me a bit of a male Sharapova--albeit at a different pitch. Wonder if folks will start complaining about that as they did with her?
 
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Kieran

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Carlos makes a loud grunting noise after EVERY shot---reminds me a bit of a male Sharapova--albeit at a different pitch. Wonder if folks will start complaining about that as they did with her?
Sometimes it sounds like he actually grunts before he hits the ball. That may become an issue..
 
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MargaretMcAleer

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Paul Annacone, his thoughts on Carlos Alcaraz, commentating for TC,
Neither Federer nor Nadal ( nor Djokovic) was No 1 as a teenager,

" The most complete 19 year old men's player in memory with consistency and decision making not typically seen in young players.The interesting thing for me is watching someone who is this athletically talented with his running, jumping, explosiveness and flexibility, but also has the hand-eye coordination to be able to take the ball on the rise, come forward and volley, Annacone said. He also can back up and change pace.He can do everything".
 
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