Controversial Takes (present or historic)

[El Dude]

Inspired by Britbox's "Which Opinions" thread, here's a similar one.

What are some controversial takes, either of tennis history or current players? By "controversial" I'm not talking Epstein files level, but more simply "hot takes" that go against conventional wisdom, even challenge it a bit. I'll add some in the next post, to get things started.

 

[El Dude]

- Ivan Lendl was as great as John McEnroe and Bjorn Borg, and even--gasp--Pete Sampras.

To be honest, I'm torn on this one. But every statistical angle I've taken has led me to the above conclusion. One could argue that he was better than Sampras, but less regarded because far fewer Slams. But this is largely because Lendl overlapped with the primes of more all-time greats than any other great player: Connors, Borg, McEnroe, Wilander, Edberg, Becker, and even early prime Sampras, Agassi, and peak Courier.

- Serena Williams is not the WTA GOAT.

I know this is the popular opinion, but is mainly based on recency bias. Navratilova and Graf were both more consistently dominant. Serena's career is patchy; she had two or three truly dominant years, but mostly she had "partially great" years in which she looked overpowering during Slams, but didn't back it up with many other titles. I think a better argument is whether she or Evert belongs at #3 (or Court, if you consider pre-Open Era).

- Andy Murray is in the same "greatness tier" as Wilander, Edberg, and Becker.

Meaning, he's well above the better 2-4 Slam winners like Vilas, Nastase, and Courier (not to mention Wawrinka, Kuerten, etc). He went deep in most Slams during his prime and won a ton of big titles - more than all three of those guys above. His 3-8 Slam final record is indicative of a great player who had the misfortune of mostly facing three GOATs. That's the same number of Slam finals as Wilander (7-4) and Edberg (6-5) and one more than Becker (6-4).

 

[El Dude]

Andre Agassi is overrated.

Yes, he's an all-time great. But he's a big step below Connors, Lendl, Mac, and Borg, and just a bit ahead of Edberg/Becker/Wilander/Murray. Most of his edge over those guys is longevity, and he's a bit overrated because of his persona and on-court presence - from the wildboy of the early years to the seasoned vet of his latter days. I say "overrated," because I see people rank him ahead of players like Connors, Lendl, and even Laver all the time.

 

[Federberg]

- Ivan Lendl was as great as John McEnroe and Bjorn Borg, and even--gasp--Pete Sampras.

To be honest, I'm torn on this one. But every statistical angle I've taken has led me to the above conclusion. One could argue that he was better than Sampras, but less regarded because far fewer Slams. But this is largely because Lendl overlapped with the primes of more all-time greats than any other great player: Connors, Borg, McEnroe, Wilander, Edberg, Becker, and even early prime Sampras, Agassi, and peak Courier.

- Serena Williams is not the WTA GOAT.

I know this is the popular opinion, but is mainly based on recency bias. Navratilova and Graf were both more consistently dominant. Serena's career is patchy; she had two or three truly dominant years, but mostly she had "partially great" years in which she looked overpowering during Slams, but didn't back it up with many other titles. I think a better argument is whether she or Evert belongs at #3 (or Court, if you consider pre-Open Era).

- Andy Murray is in the same "greatness tier" as Wilander, Edberg, and Becker.

Meaning, he's well above the better 2-4 Slam winners like Vilas, Nastase, and Courier (not to mention Wawrinka, Kuerten, etc). He went deep in most Slams during his prime and won a ton of big titles - more than all three of those guys above. His 3-8 Slam final record is indicative of a great player who had the misfortune of mostly facing three GOATs. That's the same number of Slam finals as Wilander (7-4) and Edberg (6-5) and one more than Becker (6-4).

Agreed about Murray and Serena. I put Seles, Evert, Navratilova and Graf in the same tier as her

Agreed Lendl is better than his record, that’s the single most brutally competitive era in tennis history imo.

Controversial take.. Borg is if not in, he’s damn close to being in the Big 3 tier. Guy could have easily won 6 or 7 Aussie Opens, and he passed on at least one RG if I recall. Those guys didn’t chase slams. They chased each other

 

[Federberg]

Andre Agassi is overrated.

Yes, he's an all-time great. But he's a big step below Connors, Lendl, Mac, and Borg, and just a bit ahead of Edberg/Becker/Wilander/Murray. Most of his edge over those guys is longevity, and he's a bit overrated because of his persona and on-court presence - from the wildboy of the early years to the seasoned vet of his latter days. I say "overrated," because I see people rank him ahead of players like Connors, Lendl, and even Laver all the time.

Hmmm.. not sure I agree. But I respect your thinking. He left the game effectively then came back. Not sure many guys would be able to do that and maintain success. On the other hand in my mind that was a weak era in comparison to the Becker Edberg period. Hell it was so bad I was at least as invested in Steffi/ Seles as the men’s side at that time. That’s a tough call. You got me swaying to your side

 

[Jelenafan]

Steffi Graff is highly overrated. In any other comparison she is 2nd tier greatness.

The anti-Lendl (toughest competition level) in that she benefited from an aging out Martina/Chris, had a mentally weak Sabatini as her main rival for a couple years, and after the Seles stabbing, benefitted from 3 more years of what Martina N famously said was playing against “the 7 dwarves”. Think about it, she had the likes of Mary Jo Fernandez & Sanchez/Vicario & Novotna, all players with glaring weaknesses.

 

[El Dude]

Agreed about Murray and Serena. I put Seles, Evert, Navratilova and Graf in the same tier as her

Agreed Lendl is better than his record, that’s the single most brutally competitive era in tennis history imo.

Controversial take.. Borg is if not in, he’s damn close to being in the Big 3 tier. Guy could have easily won 6 or 7 Aussie Opens, and he passed on at least one RG if I recall. Those guys didn’t chase slams. They chased each other

I think people today don't realize how impressive his Channel Slams were, given the era in which courts were far less homogenized. But yeah, I agree that on a "pound for pound" basis, Borg in 78-80--especially 79-80--was as good as the Big Three.

But I'd argue the same of Mac in '84, which I have as the fourth best season of the Open Era behind Laver in 69, Novak in 15, and Roger in 06. And Lendl was similarly dominant in 86-87. I suppose that would be another controversial take that I've made over the years that those three--Borg, Mac, and Lendl--were as good as the Big Three, but just for shorter periods of time and without the "career padding" that longevity has given the Big Three.

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

Steffi Graff is highly overrated. In any other comparison she is 2nd tier greatness.

The anti-Lendl (toughest competition level) in that she benefited from an aging out Martina/Chris, had a mentally weak Sabatini as her main rival for a couple years, and after the Seles stabbing, benefitted from 3 more years of what Martina N famously said was playing against “the 7 dwarves”. Think about it, she had the likes of Mary Jo Fernandez & Sanchez/Vicario & Novotna, all players with glaring weaknesses.

That's what makes Capriati's self-destruction hurt more. She had way more talent that the Fernandez/Sanchez-Vacario/Novotnas in the world. She probably would have dominated the mid-90s years (before Hingis came up) if she just stayed on the straight and narrow. At the very worst, she would have been Graf's chief rival.

That said, I wish Navratilova had won the 94 Wimbledon final. I feel like if Navratilova had broken the tie with Evert, she would have been the undisputed GOAT, no argument. Navratilova's career titles record is probably the most unbreakable record in the pro tennis. To beat it, you'd need to average 7 titles every year over a 24-year career.

 

[Federberg]

Steffi Graff is highly overrated. In any other comparison she is 2nd tier greatness.

The anti-Lendl (toughest competition level) in that she benefited from an aging out Martina/Chris, had a mentally weak Sabatini as her main rival for a couple years, and after the Seles stabbing, benefitted from 3 more years of what Martina N famously said was playing against “the 7 dwarves”. Think about it, she had the likes of Mary Jo Fernandez & Sanchez/Vicario & Novotna, all players with glaring weaknesses.

No lies were told. Talk to @britbox

 

[El Dude]

Hmmm.. not sure I agree. But I respect your thinking. He left the game effectively then came back. Not sure many guys would be able to do that and maintain success. On the other hand in my mind that was a weak era in comparison to the Becker Edberg period. Hell it was so bad I was at least as invested in Steffi/ Seles as the men’s side at that time. That’s a tough call. You got me swaying to your side

Haha, well, to be clear, I do rate him higher than Wilander/Becker/Edberg, but I think he's probably closer to those guys than the higher group - or, at least, right between. Mostly notably, he was never really the best player on tour - except 1999, which was right in the middle of probably the weakest period of the Open Era (fading Pete, Roger's gen just starting up). Connors, Lendl, Mac, and Borg all had periods of several years in which they were the clear top dog.

 

[El Dude]

My Open Era+ WTA Top 10:

1. Martina Navratilova
2. Steffi Graf
3. Chris Evert
4. Serena Williams
5. Margaret Court
6. Monica Seles
7. Billie Jean King
8. Martina Hingis
9. Justine Henin
10. Venus Williams

Honorable mentions: Evonne Goolagong, Lyndsay Davenport, etc. I think both Aryna Sabalenka and Iga Swiatek have a chance of edging into the list. Too soon to tell with younger players.

(The + is that I'm including the full careers of players like Court and King - who had prime years on both sides of the Open Era divide...plus, I don't think the change was as drastic for the women, as there wasn't really a pro tour...and really, it took the WTA a few years to catch-up).

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Steffi Graf is Highly Overated ....................Dont make me laugh
Steffi Graf, considered one of the Greatest players of all time, Not Highly Overated or 2nd tier
Based on 22 GS singles titles
Record 377 weeks at World No 1 and the unique Golden Slam in 1998.
While critics point to the 1993 stabbing of her rival Monica Seles as aiding her title count
Graf's 89.6% winning percentage and dominance across all surfaces support her Elite Status

Unamatched Versatility and Consistency
Graf is the only player in history to win all Four GS titled at least 4 times ( 4 AO, 6 French, 7 Wimbledon and USO 5)

Dominant Record,
She held the No 1 ranking for a record 377 weeks and secured 107 career singles titles

Her speed, endurance, and power inside out fhand revolutionized the modern baseline game

Grafs 22 majors and 10 years of dominance in the Top 2 rankings place her firmly among the Top 2-3 players in womens history

BTW Graf at 19 yo the Youngest Player Ever to complete a Career Grand Slam!

Peer Recognition,
Many of her greatest peers and successors including Billie Jean King, Martina Navratrilova and Serena Williams have explicity named her the greatest ever!

 

[Federberg]

Haha, well, to be clear, I do rate him higher than Wilander/Becker/Edberg, but I think he's probably closer to those guys than the higher group - or, at least, right between. Mostly notably, he was never really the best player on tour - except 1999, which was right in the middle of probably the weakest period of the Open Era (fading Pete, Roger's gen just starting up). Connors, Lendl, Mac, and Borg all had periods of several years in which they were the clear top dog.

Ok then I’m on board with your thinking

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

Ash Barty belongs on the GOAT list before Aryna Sabalenka and Iga Swiatek. Barty was clearly the best player from mid-2019 to her retirement in early 2022. Sabalenka and Swiatek didn't start to dominate until Barty retired. For that, I can never grade Sabalenka or Swiatek ahead of Barty, no matter how many slams Sabalenka or Swiatek win.

Capriati belongs on the list somewhere. I know we never really got to see her true prime years, but if you watch her matches (especially in 1990-92 and 2001-02), the eye test should tell you she's at least a Top 10 player. She won an Olympic gold at age 16 and won 3 slams at age 25-26. A 28-year-old, fat, out of shape, and well past her prime Capriati, defeated prime Serena at the US Open.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Ash Barty belongs on the GOAT list before Aryna Sabalenka and Iga Swiatek. Barty was clearly the best player from mid-2019 to her retirement in early 2022. Sabalenka and Swiatek didn't start to dominate until Barty retired. For that, I can never grade Sabalenka or Swiatek ahead of Barty, no matter how many slams Sabalenka or Swiatek win.

Capriati belongs on the list somewhere. I know we never really got to see her true prime years, but if you watch her matches (especially in 1990-92 and 2001-02), the eye test should tell you she's at least a Top 10 player. She won an Olympic gold at age 16 and won 3 slams at age 25-26. A 28-year-old, fat, out of shape, and well past her prime Capriati, defeated prime Serena at the US Open.

In all honestly I think we will have to wait for Saba and Swaitek retire, to see how many GS they win
I thought Barty could have completed her career grand slam, even though USA wasnt her best slam,Barty and her coach Craig Tyzer were critical of the balls they used at the USO? in saying that, Barty's main goal was to win Wimbledon, and kind of got the feeling after she won, her heart wasnt 100% in competing and then she retired, shame, I know, I guess she knew best at the time
BTW
I saw Capriati at the AO, she presented the Ladies winning trophy, she looked good, she would have to be in her early 50's.

 

[El Dude]

Ash Barty belongs on the GOAT list before Aryna Sabalenka and Iga Swiatek. Barty was clearly the best player from mid-2019 to her retirement in early 2022. Sabalenka and Swiatek didn't start to dominate until Barty retired. For that, I can never grade Sabalenka or Swiatek ahead of Barty, no matter how many slams Sabalenka or Swiatek win.

Capriati belongs on the list somewhere. I know we never really got to see her true prime years, but if you watch her matches (especially in 1990-92 and 2001-02), the eye test should tell you she's at least a Top 10 player. She won an Olympic gold at age 16 and won 3 slams at age 25-26. A 28-year-old, fat, out of shape, and well past her prime Capriati, defeated prime Serena at the US Open.

It really depends on how much you weigh peak ability vs career accomplishments. You seem to greatly weigh the former, which is fine, but I think some balance them more.

If we are going to heavily weigh towards peak, then Tracy Austin is deserving of a nod.

Anyhow, I hear what you are saying about Barty - she was probably more dominant in those years than Iga (outside of 2022) and Sabalenka. But...I think not only was it a weaker field, but she didn't back it up with an extended prime. If Swiatek and Sabalenka win another Slam or two each, i think they start putting her in the rear-view. IMO.

 

[Jelenafan]

Ash Barty belongs on the GOAT list before Aryna Sabalenka and Iga Swiatek. Barty was clearly the best player from mid-2019 to her retirement in early 2022. Sabalenka and Swiatek didn't start to dominate until Barty retired. For that, I can never grade Sabalenka or Swiatek ahead of Barty, no matter how many slams Sabalenka or Swiatek win.

Capriati belongs on the list somewhere. I know we never really got to see her true prime years, but if you watch her matches (especially in 1990-92 and 2001-02), the eye test should tell you she's at least a Top 10 player. She won an Olympic gold at age 16 and won 3 slams at age 25-26. A 28-year-old, fat, out of shape, and well past her prime Capriati, defeated prime Serena at the US Open.

IMO Barty benefitted hugely from a sustained run at #1 during the COVID era- rankings were practically frozen, and she ended up winning 3 Majors in a 4 year period with 12 career titles before mentally collapsing thus retiring. Maybe I’d rank her between # 15-20.

Again partly due to the epidemic, but she never won 2 Majors in a year, hardly the poster child for longevity or sustained greatness.

 

[britbox]

The Graf "overrated and second tier" one is amusing. She beat 9 hall of famers en route to winning her majors and did it across three generations - The end of the Nav/Evert era - 5 majors against these (and Nav was still winning majors). The Sanchez/Seles/Sabatini era and then she was still grabbing majors as we moved into the Hingis era.

 

[Kieran]

The Graf "overrated and second tier" one is amusing. She beat 9 hall of famers en route to winning her majors and did it across three generations - The end of the Nav/Evert era - 5 majors against these (and Nav was still winning majors). The Sanchez/Seles/Sabatini era and then she was still grabbing majors as we moved into the Hingis era.

Is it true they found the knife under her pillow?

 

[britbox]

Is it true they found the knife under her pillow?

If you repeat anything long enough then it seems to embed itself into an urban myth. In a decade or so, the narrative will probably be that Graf hunted Seles on horseback with a pack of hounds.