NBA (whenever)...

[Federberg]

That guy is off his rocker. LeBron made 11 straight 1st team All NBA and 8 straight finals including the last 4 with no top 75 player (a thing that is way way overused to begin with), and nothing resembling Phil Jackson as coach. LeBron in his prime also was a dominant defender, making 6 straight All NBA defense teams, finishing top 5 in DPOY five times and 2nd twice.

We never saw a version of Kobe that takes the pathetic Cavs teams to finals in 2007, 2015 (no Irving or Love) and 2018. We saw Kobe with bum squads in his prime for a few years after he forced Shaq out of town and before they traded for Pau and brought back Phil. Those teams were not close to contenders. I don’t see LeBron at his best having any difficulties with those 2008-2010 Laker teams as Gasol, Odom, Bynum, Fisher and Metta (2010) with the greatest coach ever is not some bum squad.

There literally ain’t anything but rings that Kobe eclipses LeBron in and he was sidekick for the first 3 of them. He had definitely elevated to elite status the last two years of that run but Shaq was top dog and opened up everything for that team. It just all goes back to if we are only talking rings and ignore literally everything else, and then you have to apply it evenly and place Russell and probably Kareem above MJ too. And that top 75 teammate thing applies to MJ, Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc too so you’d have to use it all on them and it’d quickly get silly as all those guys have none.

I'm seriously unimpressed with the 8 straight finals. The Eastern Conference was weak. We all know this. I recall seeing a stat over that period that shows that over 70% of All NBA selections were from the West. Frankly, Golden State going to the finals 5 years in a row is vastly more impressive to me. What has Lebron done since he moved to the West? The Bubble. Caruso just said out loud what we all know (and I believe AD has said the same in the past), now he's finally got. a REAL championship.

As for your assertion about Kobe. He went through a tougher West. Almost 3 peated. I'm not sure where your confidence comes from regarding what Lebron would have been able to do if he was in Kobe's shoes. Frankly if Kobe had been in Lebron's shoes the Heat wouldn't have lost to Dallas. The not 4, not 5, not 6 thing may well have come true. There's something so insidious about being told a lie over and over again. At some point people start conceding. I can't. I won't.

The whole 8 finals in a row argument... so are we supposed to think that Lendl is greater than Sampras because he went to more slam finals? See how crazy that sounds?

Re: getting to the finals in 2007 and 2015, that's more of an indictment of the East than anything else to be honest. And didn't Kyrie get injured in the 2015 final?

As for Phil Jackson taking Lebron over the top? I'm sceptical. If there's one thing there's no dispute about, it's the fact that Lebron is the GOAT of coach killing

 

[DarthFed]

I'm seriously unimpressed with the 8 straight finals. The Eastern Conference was weak. We all know this. I recall seeing a stat over that period that shows that over 70% of All NBA selections were from the West. Frankly, Golden State going to the finals 5 years in a row is vastly more impressive to me. What has Lebron done since he moved to the West? The Bubble. Caruso just said out loud what we all know (and I believe AD has said the same in the past), now he's finally got. a REAL championship.

As for your assertion about Kobe. He went through a tougher West. Almost 3 peated. I'm not sure where your confidence comes from regarding what Lebron would have been able to do if he was in Kobe's shoes. Frankly if Kobe had been in Lebron's shoes the Heat wouldn't have lost to Dallas. The not 4, not 5, not 6 thing may well have come true. There's something so insidious about being told a lie over and over again. At some point people start conceding. I can't. I won't.

The whole 8 finals in a row argument... so are we supposed to think that Lendl is greater than Sampras because he went to more slam finals? See how crazy that sounds?

Re: getting to the finals in 2007 and 2015, that's more of an indictment of the East than anything else to be honest. And didn't Kyrie get injured in the 2015 final?

As for Phil Jackson taking Lebron over the top? I'm sceptical. If there's one thing there's no dispute about, it's the fact that Lebron is the GOAT of coach killing

The West has been stronger for a long time but that doesn’t mean getting to 8 straight finals isn’t insane. Also, the West being stronger is more about not having as many bottom feeders and more “good” teams. You can look at Lakers and Golden State playoff runs and it’d probably surprise you how few of those teams are great. Lakers beat Spurs in 08 and aside from that none of the teams they beat out West those 3 years are great teams unless you want to call a baby OKC team in the first round of 2010. Golden State played no one of note in 2015 on the way to the finals and then played LeBron and a YMCA team. 2017 was another walk in the park after Kawhi got hurt in game 1 of the WCF. I will be generous and call the Rockets of 2018 and 2019 a great team…real generous given their top 2 players’ playoff history.

LeBron in 2007 singlehandedly beat the Pistons, not far removed from two straight trips to the finals including a beatdown of Shaq-Kobe Lakers. In 2015, Kyrie and Love got hurt in the 1st series against Boston and were out the rest of the playoffs. The Bulls team they beat was quite stacked and most figured they’d win that series given the team LeBron had. Then he swept the 60+ win Hawks (not a great team don’t get me wrong) and gave a scare to an already stacked as shit Warriors team. A couple of those runs for LeBron also did include going through the Big 3 Boston teams and he basically retired that team in game 6 of 2012. So while the East was certainly weaker, it’s not like there weren’t a lot of impressive wins.

Calling 5 straight more impressive than 8 when 3 of those were KD teams is…well I will call it a Golden State fan’s perspective. And it’s all good. And LeBron did choke against the Mavs no doubt, but it is worth pointing out that that Mavs team swept Kobe that year. And also Kobe was a disaster in the 2004 Finals. LeBron has had pretty much the same team success as Curry since going out West despite having about 8 more seasons of mileage on him. The fact people expect him to dominate in his late 30’s and early 40’s indirectly shows how great he is/was.

The bubble ring counts the same, it is what it is. The Lakers were the runaway #1 seed in the West that year and I can tell you the Bucks were not stopping them with that roster. That leaves injuries, which are always possible, and the Clippers if they had more time to get their act together as the only real threats. All said, the Lakers at that time in the season (about 4 weeks before the playoffs) had established themselves as clear favorites for the title. If LeBron hadn’t won it, we’d have long stopped hearing about it. If Charles Barkley made the same comments about ring culture a couple weeks ago, he’d have faced little backlash. It’s the source of it all…and all the fanatic reporters dig it up because they know any hate piece on LeBron will get 100 times the attention. Picture LeBron saying the opposite a couple weeks ago about ring culture, I guarantee you he’d have been roasted for that given Nash has 0 rings. Everyone would say he’s a POS for that.

LeBron is definitely a coach killer, on top of that I won’t defend the guy’s personality at all. I don’t mind ego, and even his false declarations of being the GOAT. But the guy is passive-aggressive to a fault and has turned more and more into a crap teammate and GM over the years. And it seems he is now creating a drama with the Lakers when there shouldn’t be any. If I had to guess, he can’t handle being the 2nd best player on a team. And that doesn’t even cover the flopping. I won’t say I can’t stand him but there is plenty not to like and I’m hoping he’s out the door soon, partially because he’s played forever already. That said, he clearly wouldn’t have had a problem playing with Phil Jackson. The only notable coach LeBron had is Spo, which is one of the few that survived him, lol.

 

[Federberg]

It’s like he’s talking out of my mouth..

 

[Federberg]

I’m not mad at the list. But I agree with the host

@DarthFed thoughts?

 

[DarthFed]

I’m not mad at the list. But I agree with the host

@DarthFed thoughts?

I mean it’s kind of bizarre if you are only going on the stats, accolades, PER, VORP, etc that the guy would have Duncan that high. All those things he mentioned would have Kareem and LeBron well above Duncan and probably Magic too.

With that said, a guy like Duncan proves how it isnt all about stats, accolades, etc. I don’t have Timmy in the top 5 but certainly top 10. I do agree Steph is top 10 at this point as well. One thing I disagree with the host is that he basically doesn’t count basketball before 1980…I mean a statement like that is laughable on its face. He’s absolutely correct that popularity skyrocketed with the arrival of Bird and Magic but to basically discount everything before that is crazy.

Kareem often gets overlooked. Compare his career to LeBron and you have to note that Kareem was not afforded the opportunity to go straight to the NBA like LeBron was. In fact back then you had to play all 4 years of college I believe. And Kareem clearly could have made the jump straight to the NBA. Instead he went onto become the greatest college player of all time and is largely considered the greatest high school player ever, though LeBron’s senior year was out of this world and given that was 2002 and not 1965 he became the most hyped American athlete ever probably. They also didn’t have defensive player of year in 70’s or he would’ve won probably multiple. So Kareem’s longevity and overall career are just that much more impressive given it’s not apples to apples with guys in the 80’s let alone today. He’s #2 in my book, and most of the “published lists” default to LeBron at #2. I really don’t see many dismiss Kareem as a barely top 10 player like this guy did though.

Did you see the recent Bleachers top 100 list? That ruffled A LOT of feathers, and for good reason lol.

 

[Federberg]

Interesting thread..

 

[DarthFed]

That Kawhi Leonard/ Clippers news is seismic IMO. I can only imagine the penalty the Clips will face if that’s true. The NFL has had teams circumvent the salary cap but not like this and the NBA dishes out harsher penalties as is.

 

[Federberg]

I mean it’s kind of bizarre if you are only going on the stats, accolades, PER, VORP, etc that the guy would have Duncan that high. All those things he mentioned would have Kareem and LeBron well above Duncan and probably Magic too.

With that said, a guy like Duncan proves how it isnt all about stats, accolades, etc. I don’t have Timmy in the top 5 but certainly top 10. I do agree Steph is top 10 at this point as well. One thing I disagree with the host is that he basically doesn’t count basketball before 1980…I mean a statement like that is laughable on its face. He’s absolutely correct that popularity skyrocketed with the arrival of Bird and Magic but to basically discount everything before that is crazy.

Kareem often gets overlooked. Compare his career to LeBron and you have to note that Kareem was not afforded the opportunity to go straight to the NBA like LeBron was. In fact back then you had to play all 4 years of college I believe. And Kareem clearly could have made the jump straight to the NBA. Instead he went onto become the greatest college player of all time and is largely considered the greatest high school player ever, though LeBron’s senior year was out of this world and given that was 2002 and not 1965 he became the most hyped American athlete ever probably. They also didn’t have defensive player of year in 70’s or he would’ve won probably multiple. So Kareem’s longevity and overall career are just that much more impressive given it’s not apples to apples with guys in the 80’s let alone today. He’s #2 in my book, and most of the “published lists” default to LeBron at #2. I really don’t see many dismiss Kareem as a barely top 10 player like this guy did though.

Did you see the recent Bleachers top 100 list? That ruffled A LOT of feathers, and for good reason lol.

sorry I missed the question at the end. The list was trash. Some really egregious stuff hidden in there!

 

[Federberg]

@DarthFed I'm not the only one. I wager a lot of players would agree!

 

[DarthFed]

@DarthFed I'm not the only one. I wager a lot of players would agree!

Yes there are plenty that rank Kobe 2nd. I don’t see it at all. I saw AI’s top 5 was MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Curry and Shaq in that order. I guess basketball didn’t exist before 1990 lol.

Anyways we aren’t changing each other’s minds on this If you base it all on rings then you have to apply it evenly and then MJ is probably #3 all time behind Russell and Kareem. I’d go further and say that when it comes to the playoffs. I will easily take LeBron 2nd in playoffs for guys I’ve watched since 1990. But at the end of the day I get why there are legit debates on this stuff…I don’t know what LeBron’s career looks like in Kobe’s shoes or vice versa. My guess is he’d have won at least 5 if given the same set of circumstances Kobe had, but who knows. And maybe Kobe still wins 5 with LeBron’s set of circumstances.

 

[Federberg]

Yes there are plenty that rank Kobe 2nd. I don’t see it at all. I saw AI’s top 5 was MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Curry and Shaq in that order. I guess basketball didn’t exist before 1990 lol.

Anyways we aren’t changing each other’s minds on this If you base it all on rings then you have to apply it evenly and then MJ is probably #3 all time behind Russell and Kareem. I’d go further and say that when it comes to the playoffs. I will easily take LeBron 2nd in playoffs for guys I’ve watched since 1990. But at the end of the day I get why there are legit debates on this stuff…I don’t know what LeBron’s career looks like in Kobe’s shoes or vice versa. My guess is he’d have won at least 5 if given the same set of circumstances Kobe had, but who knows. And maybe Kobe still wins 5 with LeBron’s set of circumstances.

lol! I know we won't agree, and that's ok. We both know who the real tennis goat is and that's the most important thing. But in all seriousness I don't base my view on rings. Not at all! I'm glad we agree that there's no discussion between Lebron and MJ. There's a hall of fame career gap that separates them. With Kobe and Lebron I see it this way.. and it's not rings... it's the eye test, Lebron could be a linebacker ffs... he's utterly bagless, a huge number of the stats he gets have been acquired NOT in the effort of winning, and it's obvious. Imagine if Kobe or MJ or Magic were filling up their stat pads? For one thing they would have won less! But quite apart from that.. I'm a Warriors fan. I will FOREVER believe there was official intervention in 2016, and I have zero respect for the bubble. So I honestly don't think of Lebron as a 4 time champion. I see him as a weak bitch who ran to Miami to get rings. I can't imagine Lebron being able to face the sporting wilderness (post Shaq) that Kobe had to fight through to redeem himself and win another two.. should have been 3! Then I suspect even this disagreement wouldn't exist. I think, regarding the inefficiency, people often forget what noughties basketball was like. Compare Kobe to his peers and he's way more efficient than them. I think inefficiency in the noughties is as overrated as the high PPG's are in this era. Context matters. And need I mention that Kobe never paid the media to claim he was the best. How weak do you have to be to do that?? Let others proclaim you ffs... ok! Rant over

 

[DarthFed]

lol! I know we won't agree, and that's ok. We both know who the real tennis goat is and that's the most important thing. But in all seriousness I don't base my view on rings. Not at all! I'm glad we agree that there's no discussion between Lebron and MJ. There's a hall of fame career gap that separates them. With Kobe and Lebron I see it this way.. and it's not rings... it's the eye test, Lebron could be a linebacker ffs... he's utterly bagless, a huge number of the stats he gets have been acquired NOT in the effort of winning, and it's obvious. Imagine if Kobe or MJ or Magic were filling up their stat pads? For one thing they would have won less! But quite apart from that.. I'm a Warriors fan. I will FOREVER believe there was official intervention in 2016, and I have zero respect for the bubble. So I honestly don't think of Lebron as a 4 time champion. I see him as a weak bitch who ran to Miami to get rings. I can't imagine Lebron being able to face the sporting wilderness (post Shaq) that Kobe had to fight through to redeem himself and win another two.. should have been 3! Then I suspect even this disagreement wouldn't exist. I think, regarding the inefficiency, people often forget what noughties basketball was like. Compare Kobe to his peers and he's way more efficient than them. I think inefficiency in the noughties is as overrated as the high PPG's are in this era. Context matters. And need I mention that Kobe never paid the media to claim he was the best. How weak do you have to be to do that?? Let others proclaim you ffs... ok! Rant over

It’s all good bro. I do see Bron gets you triggered kind of like Rafa did to me for many years haha. It is worth pointing out that LeBron was in the league 7 years after Kobe and was more efficient from the start, even before his prime. Kobe was not that efficient compared to other top guys of his era aside from AI, who is one of the most overrated players the NBA has even seen.

You kind of make LeBron sound like Russell Westbrook, a real inefficient stat padder, and that he is “just athletic”. The guy was the dominant force in the sport for close to a decade and the analytics show it too (2nd in PER all time, 2nd or 3rd in VORP per game). LeBron isn’t that athletic anymore and is still a top ten player despite having by far the most mileage in NBA history. That “bag” thing gets overused. He is a huge dude with elite point guard skills, finishes equally well with both hands and has greatly improved his shooting as he’s aged.

Kobe was more aesthetically pleasing but greater is a stretch. You can compare by age and it isn’t really much of a comparison from start to finish IMO. Kobe wasn’t a star until his 4th year and superstar 5th year. LeBron was damn near all star level his rookie year and a superstar his 2nd year on, which is part of the reason I feel like LeBron wins 4+ with Shaq and likely doesn’t chase him out of town. Not sure why you think Kobe should have won 3 after Shaq as they got beaten handily in 2008 by Boston, a year in which Boston barely got past a 23 year old LeBron with a team of bums.

I know 2016 is a sore spot but the league suspended the Warriors 3rd best player for 1 game after he had a bunch of flagrant fouls in the playoffs. I don’t see that as a conspiracy and even then the 73 win Warriors had two other games to get it done.

 

[Federberg]

It’s all good bro. I do see Bron gets you triggered kind of like Rafa did to me for many years haha. It is worth pointing out that LeBron was in the league 7 years after Kobe and was more efficient from the start, even before his prime. Kobe was not that efficient compared to other top guys of his era aside from AI, who is one of the most overrated players the NBA has even seen.

You kind of make LeBron sound like Russell Westbrook, a real inefficient stat padder, and that he is “just athletic”. The guy was the dominant force in the sport for close to a decade and the analytics show it too (2nd in PER all time, 2nd or 3rd in VORP per game). LeBron isn’t that athletic anymore and is still a top ten player despite having by far the most mileage in NBA history. That “bag” thing gets overused. He is a huge dude with elite point guard skills, finishes equally well with both hands and has greatly improved his shooting as he’s aged.

Kobe was more aesthetically pleasing but greater is a stretch. You can compare by age and it isn’t really much of a comparison from start to finish IMO. Kobe wasn’t a star until his 4th year and superstar 5th year. LeBron was damn near all star level his rookie year and a superstar his 2nd year on, which is part of the reason I feel like LeBron wins 4+ with Shaq and likely doesn’t chase him out of town. Not sure why you think Kobe should have won 3 after Shaq as they got beaten handily in 2008 by Boston, a year in which Boston barely got past a 23 year old LeBron with a team of bums.

I know 2016 is a sore spot but the league suspended the Warriors 3rd best player for 1 game after he had a bunch of flagrant fouls in the playoffs. I don’t see that as a conspiracy and even then the 73 win Warriors had two other games to get it done.

No I think you misunderstood me there. When I was talking about Kobe's supposed inefficiency I was comparing him to other shooting guards. Of course Lebron would look more efficient, he's a forward, and his shot pattern is far far closer to the rim. My point is that compared to other guards Kobe was actually very efficient for that era. It's just the nature of the type of defence he had to contend with. It wasn't a direct comparison to Lebron, it wouldn't make sense.

 

[Federberg]

on another note, Wemby is HERE! He could win MVP and DPOY this season. He absolutely sonned AD. Utterly incredible.

And if that wasn't amazing enough, the 76ers rookie Edgecombe seems to have done something no one has ever done before, not MJ, Kareem or Lebron. Stunning!

 

[Federberg]

on another note, Wemby is HERE! He could win MVP and DPOY this season. He absolutely sonned AD. Utterly incredible.

And if that wasn't amazing enough, the 76ers rookie Edgecombe seems to have done something no one has ever done before, not MJ, Kareem or Lebron. Stunning!

ah just found out Wilt has that record. Surprise surprise

 

[Federberg]

great story!

 

[Murat B.]

Hey Guys,
Missed talking NBA. Missed talking period.
My Raps keep on driving me crazy this year. Up and down. Once they get consistent, I can see them winning a round in playoffs. Ingram and Mamu additions were genius. Bu the guy that impresses me most is Scottie Barnes. He does everything, defends every position...He is an early candidate for defensive player of the year. And if you ask me who is your candidate to come up with only the 5th quadruple double in the NBA history, it is Wemby or him. Those guys can pull off 10 blocks in a game.
Cheers,

 

[kskate2]

Hey @Murat Baslamisli . Good to see you back. Much change while you've been away. Lots of impressive youngsters in the mix. On a sad note, they just dinged Paul George 25 games on violating the doping policy

 

[kskate2]

Four days left in the trade deadline. Where will Giannis land?

 

[Murat B.]

Hey @Murat Baslamisli . Good to see you back. Much change while you've been away. Lots of impressive youngsters in the mix. On a sad note, they just dinged Paul George 25 games on violating the doping policy

Good to be back. I hope you are doing OK.
That Paul George thing left me confused a bit. I am told he took whatever he took for mental health reasons. And mental health has been a big deal, rightfully so, for a while now. So, he wasn't supposed to take it? Or was it the wrong kind ? I don't know. Bad situation for sure.
And I think Giannis will stay a Buck but who knows...