General Doping/PEDs Discussion

[Kieran]

I'm not interested in Kyrgios's motives, what matters is whether he's made good points. You and I are clearly different. Just because I don't like someone doesn't mean that I close my ears and don't listen. I completely agree, with Nick, that if you're paying top dollar to your staff, you should be getting top notch service. The sort of error that is being claimed almost beggars belief. Do I believe it's possible? Yes maybe. I certainly want to believe that's the case. But I can also see how the No 1 player in the world being a doper might force uncomfortable reactions from sporting bodies. So I'm not going to totally stick my head in the sand (even though I want to). We live in an era where people and institutions don't operate in straight clean lines anymore. Too many exceptions and excuses. Not sure, even after all these decades I've gotten over the fact that Carl Lewis was doping while he was sanctimoniously calling out Ben Johnson. So excuse me if my "willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt" gene isn't working properly anymore


PS, and the fact that it's not just Sinner but Swaitek as well just makes the whole thing more uncomfortable

Agassi failed a drug test in the nineties and the ATP covered it up, believing he was taking Crystal meth, a masking agency, for recreational purposes. In hindsight, this was a disgraceful decision on their part, and gifted him the second part of his career, where he won five of his eight slams..

 

[Moxie]

I don’t know about the 600th ranked player, nor if his case is identical to Sinner, but remember they test these players blind and only later the lawyers get involved. Perhaps Sinner could afford better lawyers but that’s not unfair in any way: he’s making money through his abilities. Other than that, I’d need to know more about this mystery man.

I’m not sure about conspiracies either, there’s enough suspicion around the story to begin with, but I tend to lean towards the scientific conclusion on this case, which is that the drugs were present in insufficient amounts to suggest cheating..

Here's an article about the case of Stefano Battaglino, who was actually ranked 760 at the time. He used the "massage" defense before Sinner did. But he was unable to prove it the the court's satisfaction, so he got a 4-year ban. I'll give you, some details are missing, such as how much of the drug was in his system. But it does seem a huge difference between 3 months and 4 years. I have to think it didn't help him that he couldn't afford the same top-drawer lawyers that Sinner likely had. Perhaps this is where a better players union might be able to advocate for lower-ranked players in these kinds of things. The union that Novak and Pospisil have started seems to be rather stalled, but I'm not conversant with it. Battaglio was 26 at the time of suspension, so when he's able to return, at 30, it seems it may have effectively ended his career.

Battaglino, positive for the same substance as Sinner, serving four-year ban

The Italian was also suspended for having traces of clostebol, a banned substance, when he was competing in the M15 in Morocco. He claimed it was an accident.

en.as.com

 

[Federberg]

Nick isn't letting this go!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Nick isn't letting this go!

Although fitness coach Ferrara made a "big mistake' Jannik believes the same mistake wont happen again.
Jannik worked with Ferrara for 2 years before the 'incident' was happy with him ( and their renewed collaboration reflects a focus on 'continuity and performance at the highesr level according to his team.

 

[Federberg]

Although fitness coach Ferrara made a "big mistake' Jannik believes the same mistake wont happen again.
Jannik worked with Ferrara for 2 years before the 'incident' was happy with him ( and their renewed collaboration reflects a focus on 'continuity and performance at the highesr level according to his team.

It’s an awful awful decision

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

It’s an awful awful decision

Well his decision is out of our control, I will imagine when he returns to the tour at Cinncy he will be asked from the media to expand on the reasons he decided to bring back Ferrara, though knowing Jannik like I do, as I have followed him since his junior days, he will keep it short and to the point, and wont really expand on his decision,.

 

[Kieran]

I think it’s a terrible decision too. It’s a serious crime, tennis-wise, and though Sinner was absolved of guilt, Ferrara is the geezer who bought this product that has a big feck-off warning badge printed on the box.

A warning that anyone working for a top tennis player should be responsible enough to take heed of. Sinner bringing him back in shows (at best) a desperate lack of judgment on his part. Did he not realise that even if he wasn’t culpable, that Ferrara was?

 

[Moxie]

I think it’s a terrible decision too. It’s a serious crime, tennis-wise, and though Sinner was absolved of guilt, Ferrara is the geezer who bought this product that has a big feck-off warning badge printed on the box.

A warning that anyone working for a top tennis player should be responsible enough to take heed of. Sinner bringing him back in shows (at best) a desperate lack of judgment on his part. Did he not realise that even if he wasn’t culpable, that Ferrara was?

What was Ferrara guilty of? A failure of judgment. He brought a commonly used, OTC medication in his kit, and gave it to the physio, though he says he warned him to keep it far from the athlete. You can say he never should have had it with him, then, to be safe. That's a lapse in judgement, but not a crime. Unless you don't believe what the tribunal decided. Then you don't buy that Sinner is guiltless, either. Do you see what I mean? You have to buy the whole story, not just part of it. If you believe that Ferrara is guilty, then he was doping his athlete, and the inadvertent cream story is a lie.

The worst thing, if you believe the story, and the judgment in favor of Sinner, is the optics of hiring the guy back. It's a PR issue. To me, at least Ferrara is the last guy who will ever make that mistake again, and Sinner trusts him. To me, it makes me believe Sinner's story even more. He's willing to take the PR hit, because he knows it was merely a mistake. In terms of the Kyrios post, he never believed Sinner's story in the first place, so he's acting like Sinner's just bringing back his doping fitness coach. To my way of thinking, if Sinner were doping, this would be a terrible way to try to cover it up.

 

[Kieran]

What was Ferrara guilty of? A failure of judgment. He brought a commonly used, OTC medication in his kit, and gave it to the physio, though he says he warned him to keep it far from the athlete. You can say he never should have had it with him, then, to be safe. That's a lapse in judgement, but not a crime.

The “crime” relates to sports, that although the product is legal, some of its ingredients are not legal in sports, and I would say absolutely that since he’s working for a top tennis player then no matter what, once he saw the warning label on the product, he should have dropped it like a hot potato. He shouldn’t have let it near his house, let alone near the player. If he has done this, there’s no controversy. And remember - no ban.

This is why he was fired in the first place, remember. Athletes are under so much scrutiny for these things that even bringing it into venues was negligent to an absurd degree. Will Giacomo Naldi also be returning to his team? Though WADA have said there was no attempt on Sinner’s part to cheat - and I agree with this - he still served the ban because he’s still ultimately responsible for having a banned substance in his body. The person who brought this into the camp should never be allowed near the place again.

All of this is a terrible look for the sport, and yes, PR matters: the two Wimbledon champions served time for drugs, and no matter what the nuance, the sport is tainted somewhat, and Sinner has trivialised concerns about this by bringing Ferrara back on the team. There are a ton of people who take greater care who he could have employed..

 

[Federberg]

The “crime” relates to sports, that although the product is legal, some of its ingredients are not legal in sports, and I would say absolutely that since he’s working for a top tennis player then no matter what, once he saw the warning label on the product, he should have dropped it like a hot potato. He shouldn’t have let it near his house, let alone near the player. If he has done this, there’s no controversy. And remember - no ban.

This is why he was fired in the first place, remember. Athletes are under so much scrutiny for these things that even bringing it into venues was negligent to an absurd degree. Will Giacomo Naldi also be returning to his team? Though WADA have said there was no attempt on Sinner’s part to cheat - and I agree with this - he still served the ban because he’s still ultimately responsible for having a banned substance in his body. The person who brought this into the camp should never be allowed near the place again.

All of this is a terrible look for the sport, and yes, PR matters: the two Wimbledon champions served time for drugs, and no matter what the nuance, the sport is tainted somewhat, and Sinner has trivialised concerns about this by bringing Ferrara back on the team. There are a ton of people who take greater care who he could have employed..

it's worse than that. Re-hiring him implies that from the team's perspective he didn't do anything wrong in the first place and sacking him was just for PR. That's how it looks, whether true or not. It's awful. Awful!

I'm surprised @Front242 and @DarthFed aren't on this already.

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

The ATP needs to step in and block Jannik Sinner from bringing back Umberto Ferrera, like the WTA did with banning Stefano Vukov from being Elena Rybakina's coach.

 

[Federberg]

The ATP needs to step in and block Jannik Sinner from bringing back Umberto Ferrera, like the WTA did with banning Stefano Vukov from being Elena Rybakina's coach.

hmmm... I like were you're going but Sinner is not an alleged abuse victim. He has agency. Banning the coach absolves Jannik of accountability. That would be wrong

 

[Moxie]

hmmm... I like were you're going but Sinner is not an alleged abuse victim. He has agency. Banning the coach absolves Jannik of accountability. That would be wrong

Does it really "absolve" Jannick? He's already gotten as much punishment as he's going to get. He's deemed not to have been responsible for what happened, so I'm not sure what further "accountability" you're looking for. But would you otherwise have the fitness coach banned, or essentially "cancelled" from the sport? For what was deemed a lapse in judgement by the powers that be? Now, if he doped the guy intentionally, sure. Ban the player and all the staff who had knowledge. What IS the policy, anyway, about the coaches for the players involved in a drug ban?

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

hmmm... I like were you're going but Sinner is not an alleged abuse victim. He has agency. Banning the coach absolves Jannik of accountability. That would be wrong

At least the alleged abuse didn't give Rybakina an edge (and by the way, the WTA was right to suspend Vukov). Sinner's doping may have. But of course, all of this is moot as we know the ATP has no spine and will allow this move to happen without anyone facing any reprecussions for it.

 

[Federberg]

Does it really "absolve" Jannick? He's already gotten as much punishment as he's going to get. He's deemed not to have been responsible for what happened, so I'm not sure what further "accountability" you're looking for. But would you otherwise have the fitness coach banned, or essentially "cancelled" from the sport? For what was deemed a lapse in judgement by the powers that be? Now, if he doped the guy intentionally, sure. Ban the player and all the staff who had knowledge. What IS the policy, anyway, about the coaches for the players involved in a drug ban?

it most definitely does. Sinner is the boss. He pays those guys a ton to look after him, but the final decision is his. If they were to ban the physio it would imply that the physio, not Sinner, was responsible. How can they come to that determination without taking away Sinner's agency? I'll grant you this... if the guy goes to work for another player and the same thing happens then we can have a discussion. What is it with this era where people want to make excuses? Accountability matters, at least to me. Re-hiring this guy is a bad look. Makes it seem like he didn't do anything wrong.

 

[Moxie]

it most definitely does. Sinner is the boss. He pays those guys a ton to look after him, but the final decision is his. If they were to ban the physio it would imply that the physio, not Sinner, was responsible. How can they come to that determination without taking away Sinner's agency? I'll grant you this... if the guy goes to work for another player and the same thing happens then we can have a discussion. What is it with this era where people want to make excuses? Accountability matters, at least to me. Re-hiring this guy is a bad look. Makes it seem like he didn't do anything wrong.

To be clear, we're talking about the fitness coach, not the physio. See below.

You seem to be ignoring the facts of what has already happened. Sinner told them what he says happened. Ferrara, the fitness coach, brought the cream in his kit. He gave it to the physio for his cut hand. He says he told him not to go anywhere near Sinner with it. But the physio gave Jannik a massage without gloves on. This is their story, and WADA and the ITF found it plausible. The fine (?), the short ban and the loss of money, points was his punishment, because, by the rules, he is ultimately responsible for his team. I don't think you can call it an "excuse" if it's the truth. It's an explanation of what happened. Of all of them, it was the physio who is the most to blame, if you buy the story. He hasn't been re-hired. As I said, I think Ferrara is guilty of an error in judgment for bringing it in the first place. I think Kieran's argument is that it precipitated a situation that make tennis look bad, which makes it a higher crime. I can understand that.

However, if you're talking in the theoretical future, which we kind of were, then, yes, I agree that you can't just punish the team member and absolve the player. But you are still talking about this present case. Sinner was held ultimately accountable. Now, you can disagree with the punishment, and you're welcome not to buy Sinner's story, but it's a closed case. It will be interesting to see how fans on social media react to it, and if he gets a lot of negative blow-back. If he wants people to forget about the drug ban and move on, this was perhaps not the wisest choice.

 

[Federberg]

To be clear, we're talking about the fitness coach, not the physio. See below.

You seem to be ignoring the facts of what has already happened. Sinner told them what he says happened. Ferrara, the fitness coach, brought the cream in his kit. He gave it to the physio for his cut hand. He says he told him not to go anywhere near Sinner with it. But the physio gave Jannik a massage without gloves on. This is their story, and WADA and the ITF found it plausible. The fine (?), the short ban and the loss of money, points was his punishment, because, by the rules, he is ultimately responsible for his team. I don't think you can call it an "excuse" if it's the truth. It's an explanation of what happened. Of all of them, it was the physio who is the most to blame, if you buy the story. He hasn't been re-hired. As I said, I think Ferrara is guilty of an error in judgment for bringing it in the first place. I think Kieran's argument is that it precipitated a situation that make tennis look bad, which makes it a higher crime. I can understand that.

However, if you're talking in the theoretical future, which we kind of were, then, yes, I agree that you can't just punish the team member and absolve the player. But you are still talking about this present case. Sinner was held ultimately accountable. Now, you can disagree with the punishment, and you're welcome not to buy Sinner's story, but it's a closed case. It will be interesting to see how fans on social media react to it, and if he gets a lot of negative blow-back. If he wants people to forget about the drug ban and move on, this was perhaps not the wisest choice.

I don't think I would go as far as to call it "facts". That's the explanation given. I was always happy to move on from this. But I'm not going to just be credulous about the whole thing. It's a mark on the young man's career. He seems to be pretty meticulous about most things, so it's a surprising error. If Sinner had a bad peanut allergy would the fitness coach have put a jar of peanut butter in his kit? I highly doubt it. That's the level of care that should have been applied in this case. Frankly if the story you're telling me is accurate then I personally would have sacked both the trainer and the physio. It stretches my belief, but then I've never been one to believe in the tooth fairy. If others are ok with it that's fine. The point is that bringing those same people back into the team is a bad look for Sinner. And that's on top of the two number ones who were just punished with drug suspensions winning the Wimbledon Championships. It's NOT a good look for tennis. Which has been entirely my point. We can go round and round about this, but I think we both know that neither of us is going to change our opinions so... move on?

And by the way, Sinner is getting absolutely roasted on social media about this

 

[Kieran]

Ferrara, the fitness coach, brought the cream in his kit.

This is why he should stay sacked. Bringing the cream in his kit. Do you remember when we all wondered what was in Novaks bottles? They were so secretive about the contents, and I’m still not sure if Novak ever revealed what it was. Imagine in this age of of wonders a long lens camera catching Ferrara’s bag a little open and snapped the prohibition on the side of the packet. Imagine his bag was stolen, or an opponent who’s hitting with Jannik saw this package?

It’s reckless and irresponsible in the extreme - and he’s working for the world number one tennis player?

 

[Moxie]

I don't think I would go as far as to call it "facts". That's the explanation given. I was always happy to move on from this. But I'm not going to just be credulous about the whole thing. It's a mark on the young man's career. He seems to be pretty meticulous about most things, so it's a surprising error. If Sinner had a bad peanut allergy would the fitness coach have put a jar of peanut butter in his kit? I highly doubt it. That's the level of care that should have been applied in this case. Frankly if the story you're telling me is accurate then I personally would have sacked both the trainer and the physio. It stretches my belief, but then I've never been one to believe in the tooth fairy. If others are ok with it that's fine. The point is that bringing those same people back into the team is a bad look for Sinner. And that's on top of the two number ones who were just punished with drug suspensions winning the Wimbledon Championships. It's NOT a good look for tennis. Which has been entirely my point. We can go round and round about this, but I think we both know that neither of us is going to change our opinions so... move on?

And by the way, Sinner is getting absolutely roasted on social media about this

He DID sack both of those people, and then rehired just the one back. FYI.

 

[kskate2]

It's not a smart move or a good look. He's finished w/ that chapter of his life. He reached the final of 3 big tourney's and winning another slam in the process. Close the book on that and leave it. Now, he opens this can of worms again and will get questioned about it for the duration of the summer HC.

I don't understand why he would bring this guy back. I get he needs a job, but so do a lot of other folks. Find someone else who needs work and will take care of you.