General Doping/PEDs Discussion

[El Dude]

Oh ffs. It is mainly used as a topical ointment for cuts and scrapes, like Neosporin. Sinner had it in trace amounts, which makes their explanation quite plausible - that his physio had it on his finger for a cut while giving Sinner a massage.

Even so, that was in March of 2024. He's won three Grand Slams since. Do you honestly think that those three Slams were at all impacted by trace amounts of Clostebol in March last year?

What strikes me about people who get upset about such things is that they take on almost a religious attitude - like a fundamentalist upset about "the gays." Get over yourself - you sound like a zealot.

 

[DarthFed]

Oh ffs. It is mainly used as a topical ointment for cuts and scrapes, like Neosporin. Sinner had it in trace amounts, which makes their explanation quite plausible - that his physio had it on his finger for a cut while giving Sinner a massage.

Even so, that was in March of 2024. He's won three Grand Slams since. Do you honestly think that those three Slams were at all impacted by trace amounts of Clostebol in March last year?

What strikes me about people who get upset about such things is that they take on almost a religious attitude - like a fundamentalist upset about "the gays." Get over yourself - you sound like a zealot.

So as long as it’s “only” trace amounts then it must have been an accident. The average juicer would have to be an absolute moron to be caught with a significant amount of the drug in their system. And we’ve been down this road before…if someone is on PED’s for awhile there is still going to be the cumulative effect even when they cycle off it.

And how the hell did this get compared to talking about gays and being a zealot? Wacky as hell just like always

 

[Federberg]

I'm not usually one stuck on this sort of stuff. I want to believe the sport is clean at the highest level. I don't even particularly like Kyrgios. But check this out. I think the bit from minute 1:00 - 2:00 roughly is compelling...

 

[Moxie]

So as long as it’s “only” trace amounts then it must have been an accident. The average juicer would have to be an absolute moron to be caught with a significant amount of the drug in their system. And we’ve been down this road before…if someone is on PED’s for awhile there is still going to be the cumulative effect even when they cycle off it.

And how the hell did this get compared to talking about gays and being a zealot? Wacky as hell just like always

It's unfair of you to say "uncommon." It's very commonly used in Italy, and is sold over-the-counter. As @El Dude says, it's like Neosporin in the US. Which, btw, an English doctor I travel with told me is illegal in the UK.

 

[Moxie]

I'm not usually one stuck on this sort of stuff. I want to believe the sport is clean at the highest level. I don't even particularly like Kyrgios. But check this out. I think the bit from minute 1:00 - 2:00 roughly is compelling...

You may have missed it, but we have discussed how WADA decided on/negotiated the ban, after the ITIA (International Tennis Integrity Agency) determined Sinner bore "no fault or negligence." I don't see how Kyrios's opinion here is that interesting. He repeats what is known, but anecdotally, and with his opinions. Also, with a clear bias. On some random internet chat show, with guys who have no idea what happened. Not especially "in-depth," right?

I liked Nick as a player, but he seems to have both feet out of the sport. He never like it much, and loves to complain about it. I watched the rest of the video. He also thinks the season should end after the USO. We can discuss.

 

[Kieran]

This is a good article from the BBC discussing this very thing. In my opinion, Nick is a bad faith and unreliable witness of what happened, I dunno if it’s because his ex-missus was with Sinner at the time.

From Drug Bans To Wimbledon Champions - How Did We Get Here

I definitely feel that Sinner’s ban left a sour taste, given that he was able to negotiate the timing and length with WADA. But WADA had already declared that Sinner’s was a case that was “a million miles from doping.”

 

[Federberg]

You may have missed it, but we have discussed how WADA decided on/negotiated the ban, after the ITIA (International Tennis Integrity Agency) determined Sinner bore "no fault or negligence." I don't see how Kyrios's opinion here is that interesting. He repeats what is known, but anecdotally, and with his opinions. Also, with a clear bias. On some random internet chat show, with guys who have no idea what happened. Not especially "in-depth," right?

I liked Nick as a player, but he seems to have both feet out of the sport. He never like it much, and loves to complain about it. I watched the rest of the video. He also thinks the season should end after the USO. We can discuss.

I find his opinion interesting because he makes a very good point. Everything I see about Sinner is meticulous. As Nick points out these top guys pay their people a lot of money. If, as Nick claims (and I haven't paid that much attention to it as the whole drug thing is exhausting to me), there was that level of carelessness it does stretch credulity a bit. Doesn't mean he's guilty, but just casually accepting the excuse is weird to me. I repeat... what I see of Sinner is a dedicated kid who is extremely gracious in victory or defeat, but it doesn't mean he gets a pass. It's somewhat ironic to me that the ban Sinner suffered seems mild compared to what Novak got for refusing to take the vaccine. Apples and oranges I know... but it's another example to me of the weird contortions institutions are making in this era which just end up being blatantly inconsistent. And don't get me started on what would most likely have happened if it was a much lower ranked player.

 

[Federberg]

This is a good article from the BBC discussing this very thing. In my opinion, Nick is a bad faith and unreliable witness of what happened, I dunno if it’s because his ex-missus was with Sinner at the time.

From Drug Bans To Wimbledon Champions - How Did We Get Here

I definitely feel that Sinner’s ban left a sour taste, given that he was able to negotiate the timing and length with WADA. But WADA had already declared that Sinner’s was a case that was “a million miles from doping.”

Kyrgios can be a bit of an a$$. I find him annoying. And I have no doubt that there's some bad faith in his argument, but he also makes some interesting arguments that can't just be dismissed imho

 

[Kieran]

Kyrgios can be a bit of an a$$. I find him annoying. And I have no doubt that there's some bad faith in his argument, but he also makes some interesting arguments that can't just be dismissed imho

Definitely regarding the timing of the ban. That was outrageously convenient for Sinner, so even if even WADA say it isn’t deliberate doping or whatever, he’s reasonable for what gets into his body and the rules are clear.

There’s also questions regarding his staff, none of them were banned, and also a prevalence of Italians found cheating using the exact same substance..

 

[Moxie]

I find his opinion interesting because he makes a very good point. Everything I see about Sinner is meticulous. As Nick points out these top guys pay their people a lot of money. If, as Nick claims (and I haven't paid that much attention to it as the whole drug thing is exhausting to me), there was that level of carelessness it does stretch credulity a bit. Doesn't mean he's guilty, but just casually accepting the excuse is weird to me. I repeat... what I see of Sinner is a dedicated kid who is extremely gracious in victory or defeat, but it doesn't mean he gets a pass. It's somewhat ironic to me that the ban Sinner suffered seems mild compared to what Novak got for refusing to take the vaccine. Apples and oranges I know... but it's another example to me of the weird contortions institutions are making in this era which just end up being blatantly inconsistent. And don't get me started on what would most likely have happened if it was a much lower ranked player.

You didn't need Nick Kyrios to make that point. I agree with Kieran on him...he doesn't come off as a reliable narrator. He seems to court controversy for its own sake. It's hard to feel he believes them, though. As to meticulousness, how do you know he is? Because he seems like he is? Because, for an Italian, he's kind of Austrian? Could be that, like plenty of stars, he leaves the details to his "people." I don't find that point nearly as hard to ignore as the fact that, while he accused some on his staff of carelessness, he didn't fire them until the ruling came down. Why not fire them right away? Would have been a better look.

The example of Novak and his unvaccinated status, it is apples and oranges, as you say. But also remember, it wasn't tennis that kept him from the AO, Indian Wells, Miami and the USOpen that year...it was the Australian and US immigration.

 

[Kieran]

You didn't need Nick Kyrios to make that point. I agree with Kieran on him...he doesn't come off as a reliable narrator. He seems to court controversy for its own sake. It's hard to feel he believes them, though. As to meticulousness, how do you know he is? Because he seems like he is? Because, for an Italian, he's kind of Austrian? Could be that, like plenty of stars, he leaves the details to his "people." I don't find that point nearly as hard to ignore as the fact that, while he accused some on his staff of carelessness, he didn't fire them until the ruling came down. Why not fire them right away? Would have been a better look.

The example of Novak and his unvaccinated status, it is apples and oranges, as you say. But also remember, it wasn't tennis that kept him from the AO, Indian Wells, Miami and the USOpen that year...it was the Australian and US immigration.

I do think, though, that “leaving the details to his people” doesn’t exonerate him - and I know you’re not saying it does - but at this level of business he’s responsible for the details, even when he leaves them to others. It definitely would have been a better look if he fired them immediately but against this, when it came to light he probably felt that firing them immediately would amount to an admission of guilt, while also looking like he’s shifting the blame.

This was all badly handled but the main story of it is that WADA and the other authorities looked at an unnamed sample and found that there was neither enough dope in his system to make a difference, nor was there any attempt to cheat.

If he was on the tail end of a large dose that would have benefited him in its early days, I believe it would have been detected in Australia.

As for Novak in Australia, frankly - he was trying to cheat…

 

[Moxie]

Definitely regarding the timing of the ban. That was outrageously convenient for Sinner, so even if even WADA say it isn’t deliberate doping or whatever, he’s reasonable for what gets into his body and the rules are clear.

There’s also questions regarding his staff, none of them were banned, and also a prevalence of Italians found cheating using the exact same substance..

I actually never understood the ban, tbh, no matter how many things I read about it. When he tested positive, he was stripped of all money and points from the event at which he tested positive. (IW?) That's a punishment. Then he was deemed to have no fault. Then WADA sued for a revision. Then he got 3 months. Why? Plus, 3 months is ridiculous, conveniently between 2 Majors. There was another Italian guy, just shortly before Sinner, who tested positive for the same drug, told the same story about contact from his trainer, and got a 4-year ban.

As to other Italians and that substance, it IS an over-the-counter item in Italy. Similarly, a lot of over-the-counter cold medicine has things athletes can't take, too. It's hard to remove the taint when the news comes out of a positive drug test, but there is also room for believing in extenuating circumstances, for most of us.

 

[Kieran]

I actually never understood the ban, tbh, no matter how many things I read about it. When he tested positive, he was stripped of all money and points from the event at which he tested positive. (IW?) That's a punishment. Then he was deemed to have no fault. Then WADA sued for a revision. Then he got 3 months. Why? Plus, 3 months is ridiculous, conveniently between 2 Majors. There was another Italian guy, just shortly before Sinner, who tested positive for the same drug, told the same story about contact from his trainer, and got a 4-year ban.

As to other Italians and that substance, it IS an over-the-counter item in Italy. Similarly, a lot of over-the-counter cold medicine has things athletes can't take, too. It's hard to remove the taint when the news comes out of a positive drug test, but there is also room for believing in extenuating circumstances, for most of us.

That particular drug has a prominent warning on the Italian packet that says it contains doping material, and Sinner’s staff knew this but they disagreed in testimony as to whether or not the guy who bought it shared this warning with the guy who borrowed and then used it.

I know: the guy who used it can read the package label too.

As for the ban, he got it for his own culpability. There were negotiations between Sinner and Wada and if the appeal went to CAS they might have suggested there be no ban, or a year’s ban, so both sides accepted the 3 months. Removing the money and points was an obvious formality but the ban was the punishment. This whole thing has caused more controversy because it was handled with a lack of clarity. I can understand how people can disbelieve what they’re hearing, given the apparent discrepancies in how other players got treated, and of course we live in an era where authority figures need to be clearer and consistent in what they’re doing. People aren’t so gullible anymore…

 

[Moxie]

That particular drug has a prominent warning on the Italian packet that says it contains doping material, and Sinner’s staff knew this but they disagreed in testimony as to whether or not the guy who bought it shared this warning with the guy who borrowed and then used it.

I know: the guy who used it can read the package label too.

View attachment 10176

As for the ban, he got it for his own culpability. There were negotiations between Sinner and Wada and if the appeal went to CAS they might have suggested there be no ban, or a year’s ban, so both sides accepted the 3 months. Removing the money and points was an obvious formality but the ban was the punishment. This whole thing has caused more controversy because it was handled with a lack of clarity. I can understand how people can disbelieve what they’re hearing, given the apparent discrepancies in how other players got treated, and of course we live in an era where authority figures need to be clearer and consistent in what they’re doing. People aren’t so gullible anymore…

I've seen photos of that labeling here before. Both men that got fired by Sinner were Italian, so I don't see any excuse for either not knowing the implications of using that cream. Plus, these guys are all versions of athletes, so not necessarily rocket scientists. Though you'd think you'd know THAT part of your job.

Of course Sinner is ultimately the one responsible, which he said, (after he blamed his physio and trainer. ) But this is where you go back to the ITIA and WADA. What does a 3 month ban even really mean? A slap on the wrist. A big problem for the powers that be seems to be inconsistency and fairness in applying rules and punishments. Also, the appearance of such. Have they no PR department? Did they not understand that this was going to look like the rules aren't the same for top players? If we could google that 600-something ranked player who got a 4-year-ban, how come they couldn't? This is exactly the kind of behavior that inspires little faith in them, and fuels the conspiracy-minded, like Darth and Front.

 

[Federberg]

You didn't need Nick Kyrios to make that point. I agree with Kieran on him...he doesn't come off as a reliable narrator. He seems to court controversy for its own sake. It's hard to feel he believes them, though. As to meticulousness, how do you know he is? Because he seems like he is? Because, for an Italian, he's kind of Austrian? Could be that, like plenty of stars, he leaves the details to his "people." I don't find that point nearly as hard to ignore as the fact that, while he accused some on his staff of carelessness, he didn't fire them until the ruling came down. Why not fire them right away? Would have been a better look.

The example of Novak and his unvaccinated status, it is apples and oranges, as you say. But also remember, it wasn't tennis that kept him from the AO, Indian Wells, Miami and the USOpen that year...it was the Australian and US immigration.

I'm not interested in Kyrgios's motives, what matters is whether he's made good points. You and I are clearly different. Just because I don't like someone doesn't mean that I close my ears and don't listen. I completely agree, with Nick, that if you're paying top dollar to your staff, you should be getting top notch service. The sort of error that is being claimed almost beggars belief. Do I believe it's possible? Yes maybe. I certainly want to believe that's the case. But I can also see how the No 1 player in the world being a doper might force uncomfortable reactions from sporting bodies. So I'm not going to totally stick my head in the sand (even though I want to). We live in an era where people and institutions don't operate in straight clean lines anymore. Too many exceptions and excuses. Not sure, even after all these decades I've gotten over the fact that Carl Lewis was doping while he was sanctimoniously calling out Ben Johnson. So excuse me if my "willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt" gene isn't working properly anymore


PS, and the fact that it's not just Sinner but Swaitek as well just makes the whole thing more uncomfortable

 

[Moxie]

I'm not interested in Kyrgios's motives, what matters is whether he's made good points. You and I are clearly different. Just because I don't like someone doesn't mean that I close my ears and don't listen. I completely agree, with Nick, that if you're paying top dollar to your staff, you should be getting top notch service. The sort of error that is being claimed almost beggars belief. Do I believe it's possible? Yes maybe. I certainly want to believe that's the case. But I can also see how the No 1 player in the world being a doper might force uncomfortable reactions from sporting bodies. So I'm not going to totally stick my head in the sand (even though I want to). We live in an era where people and institutions don't operate in straight clean lines anymore. Too many exceptions and excuses. Not sure, even after all these decades I've gotten over the fact that Carl Lewis was doping while he was sanctimoniously calling out Ben Johnson. So excuse me if my "willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt" gene isn't working properly anymore


PS, and the fact that it's not just Sinner but Swaitek as well just makes the whole thing more uncomfortable

No need to be extreme. I did listen to the clip. All of it. I simply didn't find it that insightful, and I don't think Nick is to be counted on. Maybe it was news to you because you weren't following it before, but his points have been made. And I'm fine if you have a hard time swallowing the story. I've pointed out a few contradictions, myself. I just don't see that he got where he is on clostebol. So I'm moving on.

The Swiatek case was also discussed around here. Sure, two Wimbledon winners who had doping bans in the past year. Not great. Tennis needs to take a look at how it treats these cases, and how it discusses them publicly. As I said above, I think they do a poor job of it.

 

[Federberg]

lol! Not sure how I'm being extreme, but whatever... The fact that both Swiatek and Sinner won is important. Coincidental of course, but it's NOT a good look. Tennis has enough problems right now, with many folks thinking it's elitist, with other sports encroaching it's space like pickle ball, so it matters...

 

[Moxie]

lol! Not sure how I'm being extreme, but whatever... The fact that both Swiatek and Sinner won is important. Coincidental of course, but it's NOT a good look. Tennis has enough problems right now, with many folks thinking it's elitist, with other sports encroaching it's space like pickle ball, so it matters...

Just in the sense that you said I was sticking my head in the sand and refusing to listen. I did listen. Doesn't mean I have to be impressed. Anyway, I definitely I agree that tennis has a problem. Personally, I think one of the worst things to come out of it was the clear impression that they played favorites with Sinner. I wish you'd read the post I made above yours.

 

[Federberg]

Just in the sense that you said I was sticking my head in the sand and refusing to listen. I did listen. Doesn't mean I have to be impressed. Anyway, I definitely I agree that tennis has a problem. Personally, I think one of the worst things to come out of it was the clear impression that they played favorites with Sinner. I wish you'd read the post I made above yours.

I read it. I agree with it. Do you need my validation?

 

[Kieran]

I've seen photos of that labeling here before. Both men that got fired by Sinner were Italian, so I don't see any excuse for either not knowing the implications of using that cream. Plus, these guys are all versions of athletes, so not necessarily rocket scientists. Though you'd think you'd know THAT part of your job.

Of course Sinner is ultimately the one responsible, which he said, (after he blamed his physio and trainer. ) But this is where you go back to the ITIA and WADA. What does a 3 month ban even really mean? A slap on the wrist. A big problem for the powers that be seems to be inconsistency and fairness in applying rules and punishments. Also, the appearance of such. Have they no PR department? Did they not understand that this was going to look like the rules aren't the same for top players? If we could google that 600-something ranked player who got a 4-year-ban, how come they couldn't? This is exactly the kind of behavior that inspires little faith in them, and fuels the conspiracy-minded, like Darth and Front.

I don’t know about the 600th ranked player, nor if his case is identical to Sinner, but remember they test these players blind and only later the lawyers get involved. Perhaps Sinner could afford better lawyers but that’s not unfair in any way: he’s making money through his abilities. Other than that, I’d need to know more about this mystery man.

I’m not sure about conspiracies either, there’s enough suspicion around the story to begin with, but I tend to lean towards the scientific conclusion on this case, which is that the drugs were present in insufficient amounts to suggest cheating..