US Politics Thread

[Federberg]

PS: You know what else it is? it's a waste of money. Where's the fiscal responsibility? Did anyone ask DOGE if it was ok? The LAPD is still doing all the work, while the National Guard is sort of guarding federal buildings. And now he's sending in the Marines. What are THEY going to do?

It's an abuse of power, it risks enflaming a situation that simply isn't that bad, and he's wasting money, just like with that military parade he's throwing himself.

but don't you see your outrage is exactly what he wants? Yes you're right. Everyone knows you're right. HE knows you're right. But he's lost poll numbers due to tariffs, and prospects for his fiscal package look grim. He's done this before. For the life of me I don't understand how smart people keep falling for the same trick. Clench your outrage. Please. Don't react. Protesters go home. Ask him about tariffs, ask him about the fiscal bloat and corruption embedded in his bill. DON'T let him get away with it. Why is it so hard to see. He's playing you folks like a puppet

 

[Moxie]

but don't you see your outrage is exactly what he wants? Yes you're right. Everyone knows you're right. HE knows you're right. But he's lost poll numbers due to tariffs, and prospects for his fiscal package look grim. He's done this before. For the life of me I don't understand how smart people keep falling for the same trick. Clench your outrage. Please. Don't react. Protesters go home. Ask him about tariffs, ask him about the fiscal bloat and corruption embedded in his bill. DON'T let him get away with it. Why is it so hard to see. He's playing you folks like a puppet

But I'm saying we can think about more than one thing at a time. We're getting used to it with Trump. The protests in LA are about immigration, which is hugely important to that city, particularly. That one IS full of outrage and emotion. The ones this weekend, and in the recent past are about general disapproval of Trump and his policies, including immigration, but also economic ones, and others. These have all been peaceful, and are not limited to Democrats, you should note. Just because you don't think this is the path, don't give me that face palm. Politicians and lawyers and courts have their place, but public protest is one of the main ways for the general public to make their disapproval heard. And a way to "ask him" about the above, as you say. How am I otherwise supposed to "ask him?" Send him an email? Reply on Truth Social?

 

[Federberg]

But I'm saying we can think about more than one thing at a time. We're getting used to it with Trump. The protests in LA are about immigration, which is hugely important to that city, particularly. That one IS full of outrage and emotion. The ones this weekend, and in the recent past are about general disapproval of Trump and his policies, including immigration, but also economic ones, and others. These have all been peaceful, and are not limited to Democrats, you should note. Just because you don't think this is the path, don't give me that face palm. Politicians and lawyers and courts have their place, but public protest is one of the main ways for the general public to make their disapproval heard. And a way to "ask him" about the above, as you say. How am I otherwise supposed to "ask him?" Send him an email? Reply on Truth Social?

I hear you, but the battle is being waged in different places by the two sides. Trump's sole objective is to get his failures off the front page. This isn't about about what the opposition thinks. This is about winning the news cycle. Getting voters to forget about tariffs and the fiscal bill. I don't doubt the ability of the opposition to multi-task. But the problem is that he might be your opponent, but to him you (protesters etc) are just his tool for him to achieve his objective. Fight what he's doing with the National Guard in the courts. Don't let him win the news cycle. He's a natural born SEO killer. I have to respect the game

 

[Moxie]

I hear you, but the battle is being waged in different places by the two sides. Trump's sole objective is to get his failures off the front page. This isn't about about what the opposition thinks. This is about winning the news cycle. Getting voters to forget about tariffs and the fiscal bill. I don't doubt the ability of the opposition to multi-task. But the problem is that he might be your opponent, but to him you (protesters etc) are just his tool for him to achieve his objective. Fight what he's doing with the National Guard in the courts. Don't let him win the news cycle. He's a natural born SEO killer. I have to respect the game

I respect what you're saying, but there's nothing I can do that will make him stop whatever chaos-making he will do to deflect attention from his actual failures and disasters. We are becoming more practiced at keeping the attention where it should be. At the same time, there are battles on more than a few fronts...he's made sure of that. The question is not whether I can resist every shiny object, but if the media can.

 

[Federberg]

^Yup. It’s the responsibility of the Dems to force the media cycle back to tariff’s and the Bill. Ironically Trump is so thin skinned it would be easy to bait him. It’s actually the most effective way to pull him away from his California stunt

 

[Federberg]

Thoughts?

 

[Moxie]

Thoughts?

*sigh* Yet another rando filming himself while driving, and spouting untruths. I'll tell you what he's right about...what he says right up front. That the few people who are doing violent things are feeding into a right-wing media and social media that what's to believe: that LA has dissolved into chaos, thereby justifying Trump's (likely illegal) actions, and confirming, erroneously, what they like to think about anti-Trump actions.

What he follows it up with is cynical, and basically wrong. He seems to be trying to say that people participating in the protests are doing it performatively, and have no real stake in it. Also, I'm not sure where he gets "Death to America" chants. I've heard nothing of that.

I would encourage you to listen to this segment from Brian Lehrer today on WNYC, talking to Gustavo Arellano from the LA Times, for a much better view from the ground. The main protests are centered around the Metropolitan Detention Center, which is in downtown LA, a pretty unpopulated area, ironically. Just government buildings. There are organized groups that try to help when people get scooped up by ICE. These are people that are getting "captured" as he says, at their jobs, and when they go for appointments re: their immigration status. These are NOT (all, or even some of?) the dangerous criminals that Trump threatened to deport. They are regular people, trying to live their lives, and do the right thing. There are organized groups that try to help them, once they become detained. There is also a group called the Coalition for Humane Immigration Rights of LA (CHIRLA), founded in 1986, and is being targeted by Homeland Security. This is the core of the protest, but, yes, others get involved and caught up in the moment. Some of which Trump clearly enflames, through his rhetoric, and his actions, sending national guard and marines unnecessarily.

You can hear how it has escalated over the past days, and how some of the bad actors are just teenagers, caught up in the moment. I have no doubt there are some bad agitators. But Trump is trying to say that there are "foreign actors" and that there is foreign money. Ridiculous.

Point being: it's local outrage for fair reasons, relating to unfair treatment of neighbors and friends. There has been some violence and misbehavior, but nothing that the LAPD has never seen before, including when the LA Dodgers lost the World Series. Or in Philadelphia when the Eagles won the Super Bowl this year.

The View From LA | The Brian Lehrer Show | WNYC

Gustavo Arellano, a Los Angeles Times columnist, talks about the LA protests, the Trump administration's response and how local communities are showing up for their immigrant neighbors.

www.wnyc.org

 

[Federberg]

^Doesn't matter what I think. So you can miss me with your "sigh"

I was curious to hear from Americans how pervasive that view is. Not from the entrenched, but the people in the middle. From a million miles away I see two things.

• Trump is dominating the media cycle with this. So.. mission accomplished. Doesn't mean this is entirely good for him, just that he's managing to take something worse for him away from mainstream attention (that's the bit a lot of people naively misunderstand).
• Newson has been catapulted into being a national politician. Sure he was well known before, but this helps. His platform is going global. Whether that's a good or bad thing for the Dems in 2028 is another matter. If he's smart he focuses on Presidential overreach, not taking the other side of the immigration debate

Also... I'm still trying to figure out what the political consequences of the Padilla arrest will be. Is there any part of the Senate that remains an Article 1 institution, or do Republican Senators just look away. I wonder...

 

[Moxie]

That guy you posted isn't "in the middle." He clearly says that this is a free ad for "our side." Plus, he's a right-wing propaganda machine as to what and who he thinks is out there, in terms of protest.

I don't you should treat others so dismissively to say that they "naively misunderstand" that this is a Trump distraction. No, that's openly discussed. Everyone knows this about Trump by now.

Also, I think you overstate how much this has changed Newsom's fortunes. You are right to say that he was already really well known. He was on the short list of names to replace Biden. Maybe he's a bit more prominent now, and has more exposure beyond the US, but it didn't take a "catapult." But it will be interesting to see how well he comes off in this. I'd say he's doing better in some ways on this than he has in the past.

I'm also curious to see what fellow Senators and congressmen do about what happened to Padilla. That was appalling. (PS: Kristi Noem is almost as creepy as Stephen Miller, just in a different way.)

 

[Federberg]

That guy you posted isn't "in the middle." He clearly says that this is a free ad for "our side." Plus, he's a right-wing propaganda machine as to what and who he thinks is out there, in terms of protest.

I don't you should treat others so dismissively to say that they "naively misunderstand" that this is a Trump distraction. No, that's openly discussed. Everyone knows this about Trump by now.

Also, I think you overstate how much this has changed Newsom's fortunes. You are right to say that he was already really well known. He was on the short list of names to replace Biden. Maybe he's a bit more prominent now, and has more exposure beyond the US, but it didn't take a "catapult." But it will be interesting to see how well he comes off in this. I'd say he's doing better in some ways on this than he has in the past.

I'm also curious to see what fellow Senators and congressmen do about what happened to Padilla. That was appalling. (PS: Kristi Noem is almost as creepy as Stephen Miller, just in a different way.)

it's extraordinary that we speak the same language but you choose to interpret what I write in a particular way. I never said he was in the middle. I said I was curious to know what people in middle would make of it all. At the end of the day in a 45-45 electorate, what that. 10% in the middle thinks is everything.

I never said anything about what I believe will happen to Newson's fortunes. I used the word catapulted because he's been forced to take a stand by this action. I've stated many times that the days of an Uber-slick politician in America might be over, so I'm very sceptical about his chances in 2028. But I will stick with the use of catapulted because in the aftermath of the November loss there really isn't any Democratic politician who can be called the focus. Maybe Trump is being crazy like a fox here.

I used the phrase 'naively misunderstand' because the opposition continues to dismiss Trump's antics. The time to underestimate him is over. Two termers are worthy of respect even if he's a bloated (he's been taking Ozempic right?) orange turd It's really not clear to me that some of the opposition pundit class get that Trump might court adverse controversy IF he believes it shifts attention from something else he perceives as worse. In this case, I think he's pissing in the wind because he's likely already provoked a recession. Folks won't feel it until well into the 2nd half of this year or early next year

 

[Moxie]

Read your first 3 sentences above...you used the past tense, and you'd been referring to the video you posted. It totally reads to me like you were referring to that video. Sorry if I misread you. What is it they say: US and GB: two countries separated by a common language?

I don't agree that anyone is "dismissing Trump's antics." You're not the only one who sees these things pretty clearly, you know.

 

[Federberg]

Now you've lost me. I was obviously referring to the video. Not sure what the tense I used had to do with anything. But whatever...

 

[Kieran]

This is a curious one and it slots perfectly into tribal politics wars in the west, and especially America, though not exclusively. When Barack Obama was known the Deporter-in-Chief, there were no mostly violent peaceful riots in America about it. But when the other side moves into ship out a few miscreants, the traditionally law-abiding LA “protesters” arrive on cue to complain.

ICE and the FBI were targeting possible illegal immigrants, and that’s a tough task, given the open door policy of the previous administration. Obama knew what he was doing, and he was right: he was looking after Americans…

 

[Federberg]

This is a curious one and it slots perfectly into tribal politics wars in the west, and especially America, though not exclusively. When Barack Obama was known the Deporter-in-Chief, there were no mostly violent peaceful riots in America about it. But when the other side moves into ship out a few miscreants, the traditionally law-abiding LA “protesters” arrive on cue to complain.

ICE and the FBI were targeting possible illegal immigrants, and that’s a tough task, given the open door policy of the previous administration. Obama knew what he was doing, and he was right: he was looking after Americans…

to be fair, Obama did it as part of his oath to uphold the laws of the land. Trump does it performatively. He's never more interested in immigration as when he's got himself in trouble with some other issue. He could have been doing this stuff quietly, but he has to show everyone he's deporting people

 

[Moxie]

Now you've lost me. I was obviously referring to the video. Not sure what the tense I used had to do with anything. But whatever...

You weren't clear. Don't blame it on me.

 

[Moxie]

to be fair, Obama did it as part of his oath to uphold the laws of the land. Trump does it performatively. He's never more interested in immigration as when he's got himself in trouble with some other issue. He could have been doing this stuff quietly, but he has to show everyone he's deporting people

"Performative" is the right word. He picked out immigration years ago, as a way to appeal to the grievances he recognized in a base, (and, lets face it, some basic racism that he saw in that base,) so he found various ways to "other" people.

How he's got ICE scooping up anyone, because he's promised to deport some 15-20 million people? Even thought the estimate of illegal aliens in this country is around 11 million. He's got to show numbers, so he doesn't care about what they've done or haven't done. It's about the rule of law. He's breaking laws to do it. It's about looking like a strong man.

 

[Kieran]

to be fair, Obama did it as part of his oath to uphold the laws of the land. Trump does it performatively. He's never more interested in immigration as when he's got himself in trouble with some other issue. He could have been doing this stuff quietly, but he has to show everyone he's deporting people

Well, it's hard to know why Trump does things, he's kind of arbitrary - but we know why left wing protests in America predictably turn violent, though their media report them as being cuddly kumbaya chant-a-longs. They have more sympathy for illegal immigrants than they do for hard working blue collar Americans, ironically the group that the left traditionally [claimed they] stood for. And there's a large number of them violently hate the west, including their fellow-Americans.

Look at the molotov cocktail terrorist attack in Boulder Colorado. He was illegally still in the country, having allowed his papers to run down. He has a family, and a psychopathic hatred of Jews, as evidenced by his actions. America has been good to him and his family, but he hid the shade plotting for a year, and among the victims of his terrorist attack (thankfully not fatallly) was an 88 year old Holocaust survivor, and yet USA Today ran an article that makes it kind of seem that the perpetrators own family are also victims of his actions.

Now, it's possible that in some way they are, but I'm sorry. I doubt I'd have the goodness in me to bump them into the conversation so soon. I think after the insanely reckless policy of the previous regime, a bit of order needs to be asserted...

 

[Moxie]

Well, it's hard to know why Trump does things, he's kind of arbitrary - but we know why left wing protests in America predictably turn violent, though their media report them as being cuddly kumbaya chant-a-longs. They have more sympathy for illegal immigrants than they do for hard working blue collar Americans, ironically the group that the left traditionally [claimed they] stood for. And there's a large number of them violently hate the west, including their fellow-Americans.

Look at the molotov cocktail terrorist attack in Boulder Colorado. He was illegally still in the country, having allowed his papers to run down. He has a family, and a psychopathic hatred of Jews, as evidenced by his actions. America has been good to him and his family, but he hid the shade plotting for a year, and among the victims of his terrorist attack (thankfully not fatallly) was an 88 year old Holocaust survivor, and yet USA Today ran an article that makes it kind of seem that the perpetrators own family are also victims of his actions.

Now, it's possible that in some way they are, but I'm sorry. I doubt I'd have the goodness in me to bump them into the conversation so soon. I think after the insanely reckless policy of the previous regime, a bit of order needs to be asserted...

You have no idea what you're talking about. You just read what you like, then believe what you like. And if you don't like what you read, you simply disbelieve it.

It's just not true that folks have more sympathy for illegal immigrants than for blue collar Americans. And not all immigrants that are being harassed are illegal. Some aren't even immigrants, they're US citizens. And LOTS of hard-working, blue collar people in this country also happen to be illegal immigrants. And a lot of immigrants have a fuzzier status than you seem capable of grasping, and they're getting snatched up as they go dutifully for court appearances, in search of legalizing their status. This is absolutely true and documented.

People and this country can have sympathy for lots of people's plights, all at the same time. It doesn't have to be an either/or, or a more than/less than.

And please don't tell me that it's left-wing protests that tend to turn violent. January 6th ring a bell? Charlottesville? Right-wingers running their cars into peaceful protesters? Trump is rich calling folks in LA "insurrectionists" after he pardoned the real ones from January 6th, who actually did try to disrupt the certification of our election, right in the US Capitol.

If you don't like the policies of the past presidency, that's your right. But this President doesn't get a pass on breaking lots of laws, defying courts, etc., just because you think some things need rectifying. This is our country. These are our laws, and we don't like someone, even a President, playing fast and loose with them. You may not mind watching our Constitution being trampled on, but we do.

 

[Kieran]

You have no idea what you're talking about. You just read what you like, then believe what you like. And if you don't like what you read, you simply disbelieve it.

It's just not true that folks have more sympathy for illegal immigrants than for blue collar Americans. And not all immigrants that are being harassed are illegal. Some aren't even immigrants, they're US citizens. And LOTS of hard-working, blue collar people in this country also happen to be illegal immigrants. And a lot of immigrants have a fuzzier status than you seem capable of grasping, and they're getting snatched up as they go dutifully for court appearances, in search of legalizing their status. This is absolutely true and documented.

People and this country can have sympathy for lots of people's plights, all at the same time. It doesn't have to be an either/or, or a more than/less than.

And please don't tell me that it's left-wing protests that tend to turn violent. January 6th ring a bell? Charlottesville? Right-wingers running their cars into peaceful protesters? Trump is rich calling folks in LA "insurrectionists" after he pardoned the real ones from January 6th, who actually did try to disrupt the certification of our election, right in the US Capitol.

If you don't like the policies of the past presidency, that's your right. But it this President doesn't get a pass on breaking lots of laws, defying courts, etc., just because you think some things need rectifying. This is our country. These are our laws, and we don't like someone, even a President, playing fast and loose with them. You may not mind watching our Constitution being trampled on, but we do.

You’re a partisan, I’ve given up thinking your political views are objective. You don’t critique your own side. That’s a giveaway. I think you’re fabulous, but in politics, you’re a one way street. Whatever the tribe say, you’re down with it. Castrating boys, whatever. The fact is that your president opened the border and the sentimental cheered. And it was wrong. You didn’t even address the things I said. You just cheer the left, applause for the rioters, forget about the humble schmuck who’s undercut. Forget about the engrained bigotry of the left, which “others” people in a way you just don’t care about, because the left somehow think they’re the party of justice and compassion.

There’s a reason why your side lost. You may complain about your current president, but next time don’t put forward a senseless meme and expect to win..

 

[Moxie]

You’re a partisan, I’ve given up thinking your political views are objective. You don’t critique your own side. That’s a giveaway. I think you’re fabulous, but in politics, you’re a one way street. Whatever the tribe say, you’re down with it. Castrating boys, whatever. The fact is that your president opened the border and the sentimental cheered. And it was wrong. You didn’t even address the things I said. You just cheer the left, applause for the rioters, forget about the humble schmuck who’s undercut. Forget about the engrained bigotry of the left, which “others” people in a way you just don’t care about, because the left somehow think they’re the party of justice and compassion.

There’s a reason why your side lost. You may complain about your current president, but next time don’t put forward a senseless meme and expect to win..

I addressed the points in your first paragraph, which were germane to this conversation. As to the firebombing in Boulder, I'm sorry, but I don't find one specific example of a racist nut job that interesting to the wider concern. It's not different than the home-grown American anti-semite who killed 11 people at the Tree of Life Synagogue in PA a few years ago. There will be criminals who do horrible things, but they're not all immigrants, illegal or otherwise. Those are stand-alone examples, and don't tell you who the vast majority of immigrants are in this country, or any country, for that matter.

We're discussing the protests in LA, and I'm also talking about the seizing and deporting of people wholesale, without due process. Trump said he was going to get rid of illegals who were criminals. Perhaps if they'd been more judicious about who they were going after, they might have picked up that guy in CO who overstayed his visa before he was able to attack those people. No such care is being taken.

But speaking of not addressing what the other person wrote in response, you responded to nothing in my post. You only came back with your same-old: that I'm a partisan, that I never criticize my own side, and back to the castration of boys.

I have NOT cheered rioters. Federberg and I are discussing how that's a bad look, but also how much that's being overblown, in terms of LA. I posted a longer bit above on this, with a radio clip of an LA Times reporter telling what's really going on in LA, which is only 15-20 minutes long. From a very reliable and fair program. You would do well to listen to it, before you go off on how violent it all is.

I didn't ask you this directly, but I will now: Are you OK with Trump flaunting the rule of law to his end of mass-deportation? He has defied court orders. He has denied due process to many of these people, which the courts are telling him he cannot do. He's discussing suspending habeas corpus. "Due process of law" and habeas corpus applies to everyone in the US, regardless of citizenship status. It is the rule of law. How do you feel about those laws being suspended, or potentially so? Because then it applies to everyone, once you move the bar and set new precedent. And he's got the Supreme Court he packed.