US Open Final: Novak Djokovic v Stan Wawrinka

[Mary]

Hi Denis, long time no see.

What is exactly No1e's injury? He seems have more than one, both shoulders, both arms, ...?

I would bet a lot of money if I had any that its damage to the rotator cuff - a set of 4 tendons that give the shoulder and arms their movement.
If I am right the pain goes down the arm and it's not unusual for both shoulders to be affected. If he's had it for some time he will have been using the arm differently trying to protect the injury and that can put strain on other joints, even on the neck and back. Rotator cuff injuries typically affect tendons which can be irritated, inflamed and tear or snap. Often caused by wear and tear or the development of bone spurs which snag the tendon so that it doesn't slide freely. The way Nole struggled with his serve at 4/2 final set indicated severe pain and weakness - the arm was just not doing what he was telling it to do. That is typical of damaged tendon. I so hope they can patch it up for the final.
Usually its cured by physio to release trapped tendons and strengthen muscle to stabilise the shoulder but Nole's muscles are probably the strongest in the world! Otherwise long period of rest or surgery to repair tendon, file down bone and hoover out inflammation. Surgery is routine arthroscopy but the shoulder takes ages to recover - they immobilise it for weeks and all the muscle strength goes and for a normally fit person it takes a year to get full strength back. I had such surgery 18 months ago and was not allowed to lift anything heavier than a half cup of liquid for over 3 months and had my shoulder totally immobilised for ages, couldn't dress or wash without help!

I have massive admiration for Nole for finishing the match and winning, totally in his corner for the final but worried! I bet he starts out on pain relief but that will wear off so he needs to keep it tight and short.

 

[Billie]

I am really hoping that it's not a rotator cuff, Mary. According to a Serbian reporter, Ozmo, Nole did not look too concerned about it and said that due to humidity the balls were heavier and with heavy hitting his shoulder was battered a little bit (and probably lack of play up to that point). He explained it as a knot (best translation I can come up with) there and wanted a trainer to work on it so it doesn't get worse. And it did affect his serve. He's had problems with his shoulders numerous times before, never too serious that he had to miss tournaments, but the shoulders do get a fierce workout often. Hopefully he can give it all he can tomorrow without any serious damage knowing that he can rest after that. I am happy that he was able to reach a major final for the 21st time in his career putting him 2nd all time after Fed's 27.

An interesting bit of information, a Serbian boy managed to reach USO junior final for the first time. His name is Miomir Kecmanovic and he trains in Nick's academy. He has recently enlisted help from Dr Igor Cetojevic, the famous doctor who diagnosed Nole's gluten allergy in 2010. Miomir also lost a few kilograms and says that he never felt better on court before. I think he is an underdog tomorrow but nevertheless it's a great run for him. I think our TV will show this match as well because his opponent in the final is a Canadian.

 

[britbox]

 

[britbox]

 

[Moxie]

Thanks for the scouting report on the young Serbian, Billie. Temperatures and humidity should both drop for tomorrow's final.

 

[Billie]

Thanks for the scouting report on the young Serbian, Billie. Temperatures and humidity should both drop for tomorrow's final.

That's good news. We went out today to see a tech expo. It was so muggy and hot that we couldn't stay outside for too long. With Rogers cup being held at the end of July or beginning of August I know the feeling when it is hot you can't even sit comfortably. I always feel for the players who have to deal with it on the court. Yes, I am a softie.

 

[britbox]

What was the temperature in NYC today @Moxie? The Eurosport commentators thought the ladies were feeling it.

 

[Mastoor]

I would bet a lot of money if I had any that its damage to the rotator cuff - a set of 4 tendons that give the shoulder and arms their movement.
If I am right the pain goes down the arm and it's not unusual for both shoulders to be affected. If he's had it for some time he will have been using the arm differently trying to protect the injury and that can put strain on other joints, even on the neck and back. Rotator cuff injuries typically affect tendons which can be irritated, inflamed and tear or snap. Often caused by wear and tear or the development of bone spurs which snag the tendon so that it doesn't slide freely. The way Nole struggled with his serve at 4/2 final set indicated severe pain and weakness - the arm was just not doing what he was telling it to do. That is typical of damaged tendon. I so hope they can patch it up for the final.
Usually its cured by physio to release trapped tendons and strengthen muscle to stabilise the shoulder but Nole's muscles are probably the strongest in the world! Otherwise long period of rest or surgery to repair tendon, file down bone and hoover out inflammation. Surgery is routine arthroscopy but the shoulder takes ages to recover - they immobilise it for weeks and all the muscle strength goes and for a normally fit person it takes a year to get full strength back. I had such surgery 18 months ago and was not allowed to lift anything heavier than a half cup of liquid for over 3 months and had my shoulder totally immobilised for ages, couldn't dress or wash without help!

I have massive admiration for Nole for finishing the match and winning, totally in his corner for the final but worried! I bet he starts out on pain relief but that will wear off so he needs to keep it tight and short.

So, not only that No1e wasn't lucky in this slam but seems he may be injured for a long time. I guess he will have to have a shot or to pop a pill, codeine or something similar just to play in the final.

 

[Mastoor]

:lulz2:

That's not funny, it is sad.

 

[Moxie]

What was the temperature in NYC today @Moxie? The Eurosport commentators thought the ladies were feeling it.

I think it was around about 90 degrees, but it was very humid, and I think we were under a heat alert, so the heat index was likely close to 100. It was windy, but with the new roof construction, and the lip it creates, there's no more wind in Ashe, and it's much hotter and airless. I'm sure it affected the players today. They both went off and changed after the first set. Tomorrow is supposed to offer a drop in temp and humidity. Not fall-like, but not suffocating, either.

 

[Moxie]

So, not only that No1e wasn't lucky in this slam but seems he may be injured for a long time. I guess he will have to have a shot or to pop a pill, codeine or something similar just to play in the final.

Novak isn't lucky if he's injured, but if you don't think he's been lucky, as far as getting through this slam into the final, you're deluded. And if he wins, I'm not going to believe he was injured at all.

 

[Mary]

So, not only that No1e wasn't lucky in this slam but seems he may be injured for a long time. I guess he will have to have a shot or to pop a pill, codeine or something similar just to play in the final.

Let's hope I am wrong, but it's great he's made the final!

 

[Mary]

That's good news. We went out today to see a tech expo. It was so muggy and hot that we couldn't stay outside for too long. With Rogers cup being held at the end of July or beginning of August I know the feeling when it is hot you can't even sit comfortably. I always feel for the players who have to deal with it on the court. Yes, I am a softie.

I don't know how they cope with the heat - it seems so wrong that they play in conditions damaging to health that make the game more about coping with heat, wind, footing etc rather than the core tennis skills.

 

[Mary]

I am really hoping that it's not a rotator cuff, Mary. According to a Serbian reporter, Ozmo, Nole did not look too concerned about it and said that due to humidity the balls were heavier and with heavy hitting his shoulder was battered a little bit (and probably lack of play up to that point). He explained it as a knot (best translation I can come up with) there and wanted a trainer to work on it so it doesn't get worse. And it did affect his serve. He's had problems with his shoulders numerous times before, never too serious that he had to miss tournaments, but the shoulders do get a fierce workout often. Hopefully he can give it all he can tomorrow without any serious damage knowing that he can rest after that. I am happy that he was able to reach a major final for the 21st time in his career putting him 2nd all time after Fed's 27.

An interesting bit of information, a Serbian boy managed to reach USO junior final for the first time. His name is Miomir Kecmanovic and he trains in Nick's academy. He has recently enlisted help from Dr Igor Cetojevic, the famous doctor who diagnosed Nole's gluten allergy in 2010. Miomir also lost a few kilograms and says that he never felt better on court before. I think he is an underdog tomorrow but nevertheless it's a great run for him. I think our TV will show this match as well because his opponent in the final is a Canadian.

It would be good to see more Serbian players coming through, they have the role models and the interest now.

Hope you are right about the shoulder, the human body no matter how fit is just not made for what tennis players do to it these days!

 

[britbox]

I've gone for Wawrinka in 4. Novak takes one of the first two sets. The Djoker isn't at his best and Stan is a finals beast. Think it's 9 or 10 finals on the spin for the Swiss.

 

[Carol]

That's not funny, it is sad.

What is not funny? Novak saying from the beginning of the tournament that he was injured and later 8 players have retired because their injuries but he is still there and you say that he has problems with both shoulders, arms and wrists? are you kidding me? is he a robot or something similar? I know after to lose the third set to Monfils he got massage in his shoulder..... and also he needed to feel more fresh...

 

[masterclass]

If any of you have ever played the game you would know that an injured serving shoulder would seriously impact the serve.
Djokovic keeps winning.
The US Open site keeps good serve speed stats. I suggest you all take a look at them.

For those that can't be bothered, here they are:

2016 US Open Djokovic avg. serve (mph) total (1st & 2nd serves)
vs. Monfils (4 sets) - 106
vs. Tsonga (2 sets) - 106
vs. Edmund (3 sets) - 106
vs. Youzhny (3 games) - 111
vs. Vesely (W/0) - N/A
vs. Janowicz (4 sets) - 102

2015 US Open Djokovic avg. serve (mph) total (1st & 2nd serves)
vs. Federer (4 sets) - 103
vs. Cilic (3 sets) - 106
vs. Lopez, F. (4 sets) - 106
vs. Bautista Agut (4 sets) - 102
vs. Seppi (3 sets) - 104
vs Haider-Maurer (3 sets) - 103
vs. Souza (3 sets) - 108

2014 US Open Djokovic avg. serve (mph) total (1st & 2nd serves)
vs. Nishikori (4 sets) - 105
vs. Murray (4 sets) - 105
vs. Kohlschreiber (3 sets) - 105
vs. Querrey (3 sets) - 104
vs. Mathieu (3 sets) - 108
vs. Schwartzman (3 sets) - 107

----------------------------------------

As for today's match... Novak says he is fine.
All of Wawrinka's results pre-Magnus Norman are irrelevant in terms of his play afterwards.
He is a different player in majors since.

                     Before Norman          |            With Norman
     Tournaments  |  QF|SF|F| W |Matches won|Tournaments |QF|SF| F| W | Matches won
Austr. Open      8|  1  -  -  - |      17   |         3  | -  1  -  1 |         14
Roland Garros    8|  -  -  -  - |      16   |         4  | 1  1  -  1 |         16
Wimbledon        8|  -  -  -  - |       9   |         4  | 2  -  -  - |          9
US Open          8|  1  -  -  - |      18   |         4  | 1  2  1* - |         19*

* Pending

As noted above, Wawrinka has quintupled his slam QF & beyond results in half as many tournaments.
Wawrinka was nicknamed Stanimal when he won his first title at the 2014 AO defeating Djokovic and Nadal.
He proved that was no fluke when he defeated Federer and Djokovic at Roland Garros.in 2015.
Stanimal is undefeated in all finals since 2014.

But every match is a new event.
Novak #13, or Stan #3?

Novak is relatively fresh only playing 118 games due to 2 retirements and a walk over, but he could be undercooked in terms of match toughness. 150 games is the record (McEnroe USO 1979) for winning the title with fewest games played where all matches were best of 5 and including ret. and W/O. McEnroe was given 1 ret. and 1 W/O that tournament. Borg has the record with 159 games at RG 1978 where there were no ret. or W/O in best of 5. He didn't drop a set.

On the other hand, Stan should be match tougher considering what he has gone through. We just don't know how tired he is.
Let's see what happens.

Respectfully,
masterclass

 

[Billie]

It is no secret that Nole is not known for how hard he can hit his serve. Even he acknowledged that the speed of it is not his strongest suit. He counts on placement and variety. So those MPHs on his serve are almost always the same as he knows he can't really force it much higher without some serious trouble. Perhaps in tournaments when he is really fresh he can up them 2-3 MPH but that his ceiling.

What is telling is number of Aces vs Double faults in this tournament. The first match (where his average serve speed was the slowest) he had 12 aces and 5 double faults. but then it started to go way down on aces department and up in double faults: R4 3 aces 7 double faults; QF 1 ace 3 double faults; SF 1 ace 7 double faults. None of the opponents were really super returners, so the serving stats are not that encouraging.

 

[Billie]

It would be good to see more Serbian players coming through, they have the role models and the interest now.

Hope you are right about the shoulder, the human body no matter how fit is just not made for what tennis players do to it these days!

Mary, sometimes hope is all we have. We'll see soon. I've always feel that players in the last several years have become stronger and hit harder but it seems that their bodies can't really handle it all that well. It is not just Nole, there are a lot of players that struggle with physical issues and injuries, some have surgeries, some miss tournaments, young guys have a hard time adjusting to all this. I don't like it at all. Most of the times for me it is not how hard they can hit a forehand, but how they can outsmart their opponent and place the ball where he can't reach it. Smarts more than just strength.

 

[Billie]

And a final note, it really does not matter if somebody is slightly injured or not. It is the finals day and usually the person who is most physically and mentally ready, who hits the ball better and who has stronger desire and determination will almost always win.