The Slam Race - Who are you Buying/Selling?

Moxie

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Interesting that no one has mentioned Felix. Are we holding, or selling? Also, lest we forget the players that seemed to have a bright future, and have fallen by the wayside, Denis Shapovalov won in early rounds in a French challenger today. Benoit Paire won his first match in over a year, over Andy Murray, in the same challenger, I think.
 

MargaretMcAleer

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Interesting that no one has mentioned Felix. Are we holding, or selling? Also, lest we forget the players that seemed to have a bright future, and have fallen by the wayside, Denis Shapovalov won in early rounds in a French challenger today. Benoit Paire won his first match in over a year, over Andy Murray, in the same challenger, I think.
I will give Felix this year, so I am holding, if he dosent improve I will sell
I am still out on Shapovalov, he has to watch his margins and can still be a headcase, also being out with a knee injury didnt help his cause
Yes the Bearded One, I am certain something is growing in that bush of his, won his first match in over a year, Murray started well and then fell by the wayside again, actually someone on Twitter was saying he has to retire? dont think players dont read comments, as Murray came on and explained what was happening to him etc, most people including myself tweeted back ' you retire on your own terms' Andy!
 

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Buying or even Holding stock for Zverev and Tsitsipas is akin to buying/holding on Caroline Wozniaki all those years before she finally won one major. Yes, she did win one, but it took a near once-in-a-century alignment of the stars for it to happen. Same with Zverev and Tsitsipas, aka the “I Can Always Find a Way to Grab Defeat from the Jaw of Victory” boys.
 

El Dude

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I hate to say it, but I'm selling on Felix. I'll be happy if he wins Wimbledon and sends me a PM, "In your face, Dude!" But at this point, I don't see him as a future Slam winner. I do still expect him to win a Masters, at some point, or at least wouldn't be surprised. But he really seems more in the Monfils/Gasquet mold than even the Berdych/Tsonga mold (with the caveat that both groups of players are better than their raw big title count, due to playing during the Big Four era...but they represent pretty much standard 3rd and 2nd tier players).
 

Moxie

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I hate to say it, but I'm selling on Felix. I'll be happy if he wins Wimbledon and sends me a PM, "In your face, Dude!" But at this point, I don't see him as a future Slam winner. I do still expect him to win a Masters, at some point, or at least wouldn't be surprised. But he really seems more in the Monfils/Gasquet mold than even the Berdych/Tsonga mold (with the caveat that both groups of players are better than their raw big title count, due to playing during the Big Four era...but they represent pretty much standard 3rd and 2nd tier players).
I'm not surprised to hear you say this, but it is sad, because I know you especially had such hopes for him. We're probably all selling on Felix.

I was looking at the ATP website, and noticed Montpellier. (FAA still in.) Denis Shapavolov lost to Bublik today. He's only a year older than Felix, 25, but didn't we once have hopes for him? He's totally gone off the radar. My only point here is that there is a difference, and sometimes a chasm between expectations and results.

Look at your examples above. I know that the All-Europe 12-and under was won by Rafa, where he beat Gasquet, and Monfils came in third. They were all that close, in potential. But they differed wildly in outcome. Even though Gasquet and Monfils had really good careers.

I guess my only point here is that it's so hard to judge potential, against swimming in the deep end of the pool. Raw talent is only part of it. I think everyone has made the same point here, in one way or another. They can be limited by injuries, by game, but it really does seem to have a lot to do with who has the drive, the ambition, competitiveness, added to the talent.
 
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El Dude

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I'm not surprised to hear you say this, but it is sad, because I know you especially had such hopes for him. We're probably all selling on Felix.

I was looking at the ATP website, and noticed Montpellier. (FAA still in.) Denis Shapavolov lost to Bublik today. He's only a year older than Felix, 25, but didn't we once have hopes for him? He's totally gone off the radar. My only point here is that there is a difference, and sometimes a chasm between expectations and results.

Look at your examples above. I know that the All-Europe 12-and under was won by Rafa, where he beat Gasquet, and Monfils came in third. They were all that close, in potential. But they differed wildly in outcome. Even though Gasquet and Monfils had really good careers.

I guess my only point here is that it's so hard to judge potential, against swimming in the deep end of the pool. Raw talent is only part of it. I think everyone has made the same point here, in one way or another. They can be limited by injuries, by game, but it really does seem to have a lot to do with who has the drive, the ambition, competitiveness, added to the talent.
Well I always first notice players when they show up in the top 200 or so at a young age, and then especially top 100 as a teenager. If you remember my "benchmarks of greatness," that's sort of the "first cut" (or benchmark): reaching the top 100 at 18 (that is, before turning 19). There are also players that I hear about first here or elsewhere, like Christian Garin way back in the day. Someone here mentioned Garin I think like 10 years ago...not sure why. But he certainly didn't do anything early in the rankings to take notice of.

Anyhow, at that point, usually no one has seen them play - they're just a name, age, and ranking. But it is sort of like "Here's a young guy with potential" because it takes a lot to reach the top 100 at 18 years old - and a high percentage of those players turn out to be at least second tier types, and more so: every all-time great reaches that first benchmark. In other words, among players during the ATP ranking era (so Borg onward), it has been accomplished by every 6+ Slam winner (though not every such player turns into a great player...there are some duds, ala Donald Young, and many just become good to very good players).

The last two players to do so were Arthur Fils and Luca Van Assche. Fils reached the top 100 (#63) on May 29th last year, about a week before turning 19, after winning his first title at Lyon. Van Assche snuck into the top 100 (#91) on April 3 last year, a bit over a month before his 19th birthday. So both reached that first benchmark, but just barely. Since then, both continued to rise, Fils a bit more quickly, reaching as high as #36. But now both are on the clock, and in order for them to be serious contenders to be elite players, they need to at least consolidate in the top 30 or so and make further gains soonish. People seem more excited about Fils, understandably, but we shouldn't (yet) sleep on Van Assche. But the next year or so should tell us a lot about both.

Felix did reach that benchmark, entering the top 100 in 2019 at age 18.

Shapovalov also reached that benchmark, and looked very promising what seems like an era ago. You of course must remember his claim to early fame: upsetting Rafa in Montreal in 2017 as a wildcard, when he was just 18 years old. He followed that up with a fourth round US Open run, beating a young Daniil Medvedev, Jo-Wilfried Tsonga, and Kyle Edmund, before being taken out by Pablo Carreno Busta. It was hard not to be excited about him. He finished the year at #51 and looked poised to break out as a new young star. But his ascent--while it continued--was slow. He reached #27 in 2018 and #15 in 2019 - a good trajectory, but not the type you see from young all-time-greats-to-be. In other words, by 2019 it should have been clear that his ceiling was lower than it looked in 2017. He didn't go deep in Slams and only won his first (and only) title in late 2019. He has pretty much stalled out since then, hanging out in the top 20 for four years and then struggling with injury last year.

FAA has had a roughly similar career arc, but has been a bit more successful with a handful of 250/500 titles, at least, and as high as #6 in 2022. I haven't totally given up on him - I still think he can be a good player and maybe win a Masters or two, but I'm selling on what i thought he'd be a couple years ago: a multi-Slam winner, maybe better than that (for a bit there, I thought I was being overly cautious predicting 2-3 Slams and not true greatness).

But all of this supports your point: Young players show up on the radar and at first, if we haven't really gotten to know them (that is, see them play a good amount), they're just a young guy with potential. But then they start diverging paths - and the three you mention are a good example of how widely they can diverge from a similar early (age 17ish) place. Or here you go:

1706751933925.png

Gasquet and Rafa were close in early 2003, bu then Rafa jumped ahead. They both sort of stagnated (rankings-wise) in 2004 to early 2005, and then both jumped in 2005 - but Rafa supernova-ed from #50ish to #2, while Gasquet went from #100ish to top 20, and never really got much better (sort of like Shapo). Berdych was a bit later, but was actually ranked higher than Rafa for a bit in late 2004 after he won at Palermo and reached the 4th round of the US Open, but then took a slower path. Still, he was a better player than Gasquet, a fixture in the top 10 for seven years or so.

Looking ahead for the next Fils/Von Assche, there's an 18-year old Czech (19 in September) who is currently #127: Jakub Mensik. So maybe he's worth noting. At the least, he's got a good chance of breaking the top 100 well before his 19th birthday. Juncheng Shang has been hanging out in the 100-300 range for a couple years, but turns 19 in a couple days and seems to have missed the boat on that first benchmark. Dino Prizmic is the only other 18 year old in the top 200: he's at #169 and turns 19 in August. All the players born in 2006-07 are outside of the top 400, so quite a ways from knowing who among them will emerge. The only other pup I've stuck a pin in is American Alex Michelsen, who reached #94 last November, but he had turned 19 a few months earlier.
 
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atttomole

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I'm not surprised to hear you say this, but it is sad, because I know you especially had such hopes for him. We're probably all selling on Felix.

I was looking at the ATP website, and noticed Montpellier. (FAA still in.) Denis Shapavolov lost to Bublik today. He's only a year older than Felix, 25, but didn't we once have hopes for him? He's totally gone off the radar. My only point here is that there is a difference, and sometimes a chasm between expectations and results.

Look at your examples above. I know that the All-Europe 12-and under was won by Rafa, where he beat Gasquet, and Monfils came in third. They were all that close, in potential. But they differed wildly in outcome. Even though Gasquet and Monfils had really good careers.

I guess my only point here is that it's so hard to judge potential, against swimming in the deep end of the pool. Raw talent is only part of it. I think everyone has made the same point here, in one way or another. They can be limited by injuries, by game, but it really does seem to have a lot to do with who has the drive, the ambition, competitiveness, added to the talent.
If FAA hires a great coach like Cahill, he can realize his true potential.
 

Moxie

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If FAA hires a great coach like Cahill, he can realize his true potential.
Cahill is booked. And, let's face it, Toni Nadal has a good record as a coach. Who do you think might make a difference for FAA?
 

PhiEaglesfan712

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Buying or even Holding stock for Zverev and Tsitsipas is akin to buying/holding on Caroline Wozniaki all those years before she finally won one major. Yes, she did win one, but it took a near once-in-a-century alignment of the stars for it to happen. Same with Zverev and Tsitsipas, aka the “I Can Always Find a Way to Grab Defeat from the Jaw of Victory” boys.
Wozniacki winning a slam was not really a fluke. She was a top player for a greater part of a decade before winning it, finishing as the Year End #1 twice and making it to 2 slam finals. It's not like Schiavone or Pennetta, who won slams out of the blue.
 

MargaretMcAleer

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Cahill is booked. And, let's face it, Toni Nadal has a good record as a coach. Who do you think might make a difference for FAA?
Moxie,
Luthi Federer's former coach is now available, though seeing he parted with Holger Rune after 2 months,citing he could not travel the whole playing schedule of Rune, he would be a tad unreliable.:)
 
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atttomole

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Cahill is booked. And, let's face it, Toni Nadal has a good record as a coach. Who do you think might make a difference for FAA?
Toni is a good coach, but was also helped by his nephew’s precociousness. I think Cahill is better than Toni because he can work on the basics of the game. Having won a slam with Sinner, Cahill will not move for some time.
 

El Dude

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The other thing that has made me hesitant to sell completely on any of the more talented young(ish) guys is Stan Wawrinka. His career path is really quite unusual - unique, even, at least in the Open Era. Even the fact that he won three Slams but not much else of note (one Masters), is unusual...guys with similar records like Kuerten and Courier were more dominant in their best years, but just had short peaks so didn't quite achieve "ATG status" (for example, while Stan won 3 Slams and 1 Masters, Courier won 4 Slams and 5 Masters, and Kuerten 3 Slams, 5 Masters, and a TF).

This is not to say that we can expect a similar late surge from lots of players, but that it is possible - in some form or fashion. At the end of 2022, I thought Kyrgios was a candidate for such a surge but injuries derailed him and I don't expect him to ever go "full Stanimal" - and maybe not return to much at all. But who knows with guys like Zverev, Tsitsipas and Auger-Aliassime...looking at each individually, there's more reasons to think they won't do it, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see one of them take a surprise step forward in the latter half of their 20s.
 
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Moxie

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The other thing that has made me hesitant to sell completely on any of the more talented young(ish) guys is Stan Wawrinka. His career path is really quite unusual - unique, even, at least in the Open Era. Even the fact that he won three Slams but not much else of note (one Masters), is unusual...guys with similar records like Kuerten and Courier were more dominant in their best years, but just had short peaks so didn't quite achieve "ATG status" (for example, while Stan won 3 Slams and 1 Masters, Courier won 4 Slams and 5 Masters, and Kuerten 3 Slams, 5 Masters, and a TF).

This is not to say that we can expect a similar late surge from lots of players, but that it is possible - in some form or fashion. At the end of 2022, I thought Kyrgios was a candidate for such a surge but injuries derailed him and I don't expect him to ever go "full Stanimal" - and maybe not return to much at all. But who knows with guys like Zverev, Tsitsipas and Auger-Aliassime...looking at each individually, there's more reasons to think they won't do it, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see one of them take a surprise step forward in the latter half of their 20s.
Stan matured late. He got a good coach, and when he won big, he pointed to his head. Why? Because the difference was getting his head together. So, this could be the argument for some of our "head-cases" finally winning a Slam late-career. But, let's face it, probably after Djokovic and Nadal are retired. At least Stan did it against the Big Guns. He won 3, all against ATG's. With some of these guys, I'll wait to be impressed. If they sneak one out from a weak field, I won't be. Just sayin'.
 

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Stan matured late. He got a good coach, and when he won big, he pointed to his head. Why? Because the difference was getting his head together. So, this could be the argument for some of our "head-cases" finally winning a Slam late-career. But, let's face it, probably after Djokovic and Nadal are retired. At least Stan did it against the Big Guns. He won 3, all against ATG's. With some of these guys, I'll wait to be impressed. If they sneak one out from a weak field, I won't be. Just sayin'.
Stan also hit a new, high level of fitness during that same period. He blew Novak off the court, hitting through him in a way no one was doing at the time to win RG and the USO. Zverev and Tsitsipas (for two) don’t have that level of strength, combined with the mental fortitude to beat Novak. Tsitsipas showed us this; Zverev couldn’t even get it done against Thiem.
 

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Stan also hit a new, high level of fitness during that same period. He blew Novak off the court, hitting through him in a way no one was doing at the time to win RG and the USO. Zverev and Tsitsipas (for two) don’t have that level of strength, combined with the mental fortitude to beat Novak. Tsitsipas showed us this; Zverev couldn’t even get it done against Thiem.
What's disappointing about them (specially Tsitsipas) is that both players have a lot of opportunities to beat Djokovic at a Slam.

I have said this before: Tsitsipas losing that 2021 RG Final after having a 2-0 lead over Djokovic more than likely affected him mentally and psychologically. It is disappointing too because he played really well in the first two sets. But after losing that match, he has not recovered mentally/psychologically, imo.

As for Zverev, yeah, I just feel like he will always have that mental obstacle at Slams.
 
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El Dude

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Stan matured late. He got a good coach, and when he won big, he pointed to his head. Why? Because the difference was getting his head together. So, this could be the argument for some of our "head-cases" finally winning a Slam late-career. But, let's face it, probably after Djokovic and Nadal are retired. At least Stan did it against the Big Guns. He won 3, all against ATG's. With some of these guys, I'll wait to be impressed. If they sneak one out from a weak field, I won't be. Just sayin'.
Rafa and Novak--and Roger, for awhile--were an impenetrable wall, and the fact that Stan won those Slams--including Novak in his best year--is part of what makes the Legend of Stanimal so evocative.

But, a Slam win is always impressive - with the possible exception of the AO pre-1983 or so. Some of those Slams were like ATP 500s. But what you call a "weak field" still includes some excellent players. Daniil Medvedev is already among the best one-Slam winners in the Open Era, and Zverev one of the best Slamless players. Alcaraz is likely to at least have a Becker/Edberg/Agassi type career. Maybe Sinner too. Guys like Rublev, Hurkacz, Tsitsipas...all good 2nd tier types, at least in the Berdych/Tsonga range.

My point is just to remind us all of how dominant Roger, Rafa, and Novak were. It was an era unlike any other in terms of utter dominance by a small few, with only that brief period when Connors, Borg, Mac, and Lendl were all in or close to their primes being close (at least in the Open Era...we won't go into the 60s pro tour with Rosewall and Laver).
 
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I guess that makes Medvedev the new Andy Murray? He's closer, of course, but with all those final losses piling up...
These losses have become a bad habit. I still contend he only won the USO against Novak because the latter was so caught up in the CYGS hype he lost it mentally. (We saw the same thing happen to Serena and the Bryan Brothers, when they were also on the cusp of this rare achievement, only to falter near the finish line.) But when Novak wasn’t distracted, he beat Daniil in straight sets. The Russian has now lost two major finals after being up 2-0. He had all the momentum going into the fifth against Rafa at the USO. Yet he lost all of them. It’s telling he doesn’t have what it takes to finish these finals.
 

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These losses have become a bad habit. I still contend he only won the USO against Novak because the latter was so caught up in the CYGS hype he lost it mentally. (We saw the same thing happen to Serena and the Bryan Brothers, when they were also on the cusp of this rare achievement, only to falter near the finish line.) But when Novak wasn’t distracted, he beat Daniil in straight sets. The Russian has now lost two major finals after being up 2-0. He had all the momentum going into the fifth against Rafa at the USO. Yet he lost all of them. It’s telling he doesn’t have what it takes to finish these finals.
Well, it is why he's 1-3 in finals and not 2-2 or 3-1 (like Stan). But still, if you compare his record to other single Slam winners, he's right there with the best of them.

As for Novak's distraction, that's kind of the case with a lot of Slams: they're decided by who has the mental edge. I mean, even Novak pointed out that at 2019 Wimbledon, Roger was the better player, statistically speaking. Novak said something to the effect that you can be the worse player overall and still win, if you can keep it close and leverage the important moments. Novak and Rafa might be the two best players in tennis history, in terms of their overall mentality.
 
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