NBA 2017-18

[Murat B.]

The season started with Gordon Hayward breaking an ankle in a horrible fall. Where does this leave Boston, who knows. With Gordon, they were expected to do big things in the east.

 

[britbox]

Historical H2H: Who'd you take out of Larry Bird and Lebron James?

 

[Federberg]

 

[DarthFed]

Historical H2H: Who'd you take out of Larry Bird and Lebron James?

I think it's easily LeBron. Better stats, more longevity and accolades. I think if LeBron retired tomorrow most would have him anywhere from third to six on the all-time list. Clearly behind MJ and Kareem and somewhere with Magic, Wilt, and Russell.

 

[britbox]

I think it's easily LeBron. Better stats, more longevity and accolades. I think if LeBron retired tomorrow most would have him anywhere from third to six on the all-time list. Clearly behind MJ and Kareem and somewhere with Magic, Wilt, and Russell.

There was a lot of chatter about it a couple of years ago after Reggie Miller said he'd take Bird. Most went with Bird to be honest, although clearly Lebron is the better athletically.

 

[DarthFed]

There was a lot of chatter about it a couple of years ago after Reggie Miller said he'd take Bird. Most went with Bird to be honest, although clearly Lebron is the better athletically.

A couple years ago it was still more of a debate. But that was before LeBron won his third title. More MVP's, more final MVP's, more records, better stats. To put it in perspective LeBron needs one more 1st team All NBA to set the all-time record. I don't think it's a stretch to say he's been the best player in the world for 8-9 years and possibly longer. Bird is obviously a legend but it's hard to make a case for him over James at this point.

 

[britbox]

I haven't really followed NBA for a long time, I used to watch it as a kid in the 80s when Channel 4 in the UK used to put it on... in the heyday of Magic and Bird... I was always a big Lakers/Magic fan... I guess I followed closely up until the Pistons and then got back into it briefly when the Lakers re-emerged with Kobe and Shaq when they had big rivalry going with the Kings... so definitely not in the loop... but I'm intrigued on Bird's standing in the game (and Magic and Kareem's tbh) because when Bird was in his heyday... there was talk of him being the greatest (and Magic too) and yet twenty to thirty years later they have slipped behind players who retired before them... interesting how history re-evaluates things. I definitely put Bird in Magic's class. Interestingly, Jordan's legacy improves every year.

 

[DarthFed]

I haven't really followed NBA for a long time, I used to watch it as a kid in the 80s when Channel 4 in the UK used to put it on... in the heyday of Magic and Bird... I was always a big Lakers/Magic fan... I guess I followed closely up until the Pistons and then got back into it briefly when the Lakers re-emerged with Kobe and Shaq when they had big rivalry going with the Kings... so definitely not in the loop... but I'm intrigued on Bird's standing in the game (and Magic and Kareem's tbh) because when Bird was in his heyday... there was talk of him being the greatest (and Magic too) and yet twenty to thirty years later they have slipped behind players who retired before them... interesting how history re-evaluates things. I definitely put Bird in Magic's class. Interestingly, Jordan's legacy improves every year.

I'm a 90's kid and started watching during Jordan's first three peat. So I didn't see the 80's and before and much like tennis it can be hard to compare eras. But going off career achievements I think LeBron is already a top 5 player of all time. Chances are he ends up top 3 when all is said and done. I think it's going to be hard to pass up Kareem who often gets underrated on these lists. It isn't all about rings otherwise Russell is GOAT for getting 11 rings against a much smaller league. But regardless LeBron is incredible so who knows what can happen, he is going to be the best or one of the best in the league for many more years. He's already lost a lot of athleticism but it hasn't hurt him much.

 

[Federberg]

I'm a 90's kid and started watching during Jordan's first three peat. So I didn't see the 80's and before and much like tennis it can be hard to compare eras. But going off career achievements I think LeBron is already a top 5 player of all time. Chances are he ends up top 3 when all is said and done. I think it's going to be hard to pass up Kareem who often gets underrated on these lists. It isn't all about rings otherwise Russell is GOAT for getting 11 rings against a much smaller league. But regardless LeBron is incredible so who knows what can happen, he is going to be the best or one of the best in the league for many more years. He's already lost a lot of athleticism but it hasn't hurt him much.

On the other hand, if Kyrie leads the Celtics to the finals this year that is surely going to be tremendously damaging to Lebron's legacy

 

[DarthFed]

On the other hand, if Kyrie leads the Celtics to the finals this year that is surely going to be tremendously damaging to Lebron's legacy

I don't see it like that. He's won two titles and made many finals without Kyrie. Uncle Drew is a great player but no one is ever going to say he's as good as LeBron.

 

[Federberg]

I don't see it like that. He's won two titles and made many finals without Kyrie. Uncle Drew is a great player but no one is ever going to say he's as good as LeBron.

It's not the comparison to Kyrie I'm thinking about. I agree with you there's no contest there. But it does highlight how Lebron has need cold blooded closers to get some of those wins. With MJ you knew he was the one putting the nail in the coffin. Lebron just fetches the nail for someone else to hammer. I still think the Cavs make it don't get me wrong, but it won't be a good look for Lebron

 

[DarthFed]

It's not the comparison to Kyrie I'm thinking about. I agree with you there's no contest there. But it does highlight how Lebron has need cold blooded closers to get some of those wins. With MJ you knew he was the one putting the nail in the coffin. Lebron just fetches the nail for someone else to hammer. I still think the Cavs make it don't get me wrong, but it won't be a good look for Lebron

I think you're referring to the game saving shot by Ray Allen in game 6 of the finals vs San Antonio and the game winner by Kyrie in game 7 vs Golden state. I think it's a little harsh when you consider LeBron scored something like 15 points in the 4th qtr to bring them back vs the Spurs and against Golden State he made one of the greatest defensive plays in NBA history to keep it a tied game in the last 2 minutes.

John Paxon hit the series ending shot vs Phoenix in 1993 and Jordan passed to Steve Kerr for a series ending shot in 1997. Those are just a couple great plays that shouldn't be held against Jordan.

 

[calitennis127]

Historical H2H: Who'd you take out of Larry Bird and Lebron James?

I think this question is racist. LeBron had to overcome so much more prejudice to get where he got to that to even put Bird in his category is insulting.

But seriously, LeBron is a far superior player overall. Bird may have been more clutch but LeBron's overall talent and playmaking is vastly superior. LeBron, though, has been a disgracefully poor shooter at times and a coward in challenging moments.

 

[calitennis127]

I think you're referring to the game saving shot by Ray Allen in game 6 of the finals vs San Antonio and the game winner by Kyrie in game 7 vs Golden state. I think it's a little harsh when you consider LeBron scored something like 15 points in the 4th qtr to bring them back vs the Spurs and against Golden State he made one of the greatest defensive plays in NBA history to keep it a tied game in the last 2 minutes.

John Paxon hit the series ending shot vs Phoenix in 1993 and Jordan passed to Steve Kerr for a series ending shot in 1997. Those are just a couple great plays that shouldn't be held against Jordan.

No Darth, you are being a LeBron apologist almost to the degree that Skip is a LeBron hater or Moxie is a Nadal lover. Yes, LeBron led a comeback in Game 6 against Miami but he also had an embarrassing meltdown in the last two minutes before Ray Allen hit that 3. The block on Iguodala in Game 7 was a great play but it was a defensive play. On offense in clutch moments LeBron has been weak and cowardly on repeated occasions.

There is no sense in denying this. A lot of it has had to do with his poor shooting but nonetheless he has been nowhere near the level of closer that Jordan or Kobe were. He has barely escaped being 1-7 in Finals for his career. None of his 5 Finals losses have been as close as 2 of the 3 Finals wins.

 

[DarthFed]

Embarrassing in the last two minutes of that game? Last I checked he made a 3 and had something like 15 in the fourth quarter. I'd agree LeBron isn't the closer MJ was but who is? Kobe gets overrated in every way and isn't in MJ or LeBron's league by the way.

Also LeBron is by far a better passer than most of the guys he gets compared to often, he isn't afraid to give it to the open guy in crunch time. Fact of the matter is he is 3-5, obviously he is not MJ but of those losses he was only expected to win 1 or maybe 2 (Dallas and maybe San Antonio). They were slight favorites vs. the Thunder in 2012 and Spurs in 2013 and enormous underdogs vs the 73 win Warriors.

 

[Federberg]

Embarrassing in the last two minutes of that game? Last I checked he made a 3 and had something like 15 in the fourth quarter. I'd agree LeBron isn't the closer MJ was but who is? Kobe gets overrated in every way and isn't in MJ or LeBron's league by the way.

Also LeBron is by far a better passer than most of the guys he gets compared to often, he isn't afraid to give it to the open guy in crunch time. Fact of the matter is he is 3-5, obviously he is not MJ but of those losses he was only expected to win 1 or maybe 2 (Dallas and maybe San Antonio). They were slight favorites vs. the Thunder in 2012 and Spurs in 2013 and enormous underdogs vs the 73 win Warriors.

It took a harsh ruling (Draymond getting suspended) for them to beat the Warriors. Never mind Steph wasn't exactly in top physical condition. I"ve got no skin in the game here, but just wanted to point that out. I find it crazy that Steph gets slammed for his performance and so called Warriors choke when it took a confluence of events to help the Cavs to that win. Just saying

 

[DarthFed]

It took a harsh ruling (Draymond getting suspended) for them to beat the Warriors. Never mind Steph wasn't exactly in top physical condition. I"ve got no skin in the game here, but just wanted to point that out. I find it crazy that Steph gets slammed for his performance and so called Warriors choke when it took a confluence of events to help the Cavs to that win. Just saying

True, but on the other hand the Warriors weren't anywhere near as handicapped that year as the Cavs were the year before. The bottom line is James has actually played lights out in every finals except the first two and the only inexplicable one was against Dallas. The first one was as a 22 year old with Ilgauskas as his 2nd best player. Last year he averaged a triple double. The guy is a phenomenal player, probably top 5 all-time already but one thing he is guilty of...he is a horrible GM. A great coach, a greater player, and an atrocious general manager.

 

[Federberg]

True, but on the other hand the Warriors weren't anywhere near as handicapped that year as the Cavs were the year before. The bottom line is James has actually played lights out in every finals except the first two and the only inexplicable one was against Dallas. The first one was as a 22 year old with Ilgauskas as his 2nd best player. Last year he averaged a triple double. The guy is a phenomenal player, probably top 5 all-time already but one thing he is guilty of...he is a horrible GM. A great coach, a greater player, and an atrocious general manager.

I've always been conflicted about him. He's a phenomenal athlete, does great stuff off court. But he's a manipulative bitch. From what I'm hearing he tried to stop Kyrie leaving, while being the reason Kyrie wanted out, and I have no doubt he was the one who leaked that Kyrie wanted to leave in the first place. Would love it if the Celtics get to the finals this year

 

[calitennis127]

Embarrassing in the last two minutes of that game? Last I checked he made a 3 and had something like 15 in the fourth quarter.

Maybe you should check the last minute of Game 6 again (see the video below). It was brutal. He went 1 for 4 including two airballs. He failed as the first option on 4 straight possessions (turnover, airball, airball, brick). On the last two he was bailed out by teammates getting offensive rebounds and kicking it out first to him and then to Ray Allen (both times for a 3).

- With 58 seconds left, Miami was down 91-89. LeBron went 1-on-1 and drove the ball middle. He lost it and turned it over in the lane with 42 seconds left.

- Then Ginobili hit two free throws to make it 93-89.

- After a drive middle, LeBron shot an airball in the lane with 30 seconds left.

- Then Ginobili made 1 of 2 free throws.

- With 28 seconds left, LeBron airballed a 3 off the backboard, but his teammates tracked it down and kicked it back out to him for a 3 from the wing that he hit (to his credit) to make it 94-92 with 22 seconds left.

- Then Leonard hit 1 of 2 free throws.

- LeBron attempted a 3 with 10 seconds left to tie it and bricked it; but then Bosh tracked it down and kicked out to Ray Allen for the game-tying 3. The rest is history.

 

[DarthFed]

I've always been conflicted about him. He's a phenomenal athlete, does great stuff off court. But he's a manipulative bitch. From what I'm hearing he tried to stop Kyrie leaving, while being the reason Kyrie wanted out, and I have no doubt he was the one who leaked that Kyrie wanted to leave in the first place. Would love it if the Celtics get to the finals this year

Kyrie wanted out because he'd always be second banana in Cleveland while James was there. You should check out some of the things Kyrie was saying last year, that guy was not remotely a team player until he went to his own team and the Celtics have a hell of a coach. But Kyrie is the one looking bad in all of this, not LeBron.

I'd rather not have the Celtics make it, boring team which would make a terrible finals. And the Cavs suck this year but I'd still bank on LeBron dragging them to the finals. Watching LeBron against the Warriors is sadly the best on offer in the NBA right now.