Mike Tyson and Dennis Rodman endorse Donald Trump for president.....

calitennis127

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I know that Moxie and Federberg probably don't know who Mike Tyson, Dennis Rodman, and Terrell Owens are, but it is quite ironic that three of the most controversial and flamboyant black athletes of the past 30 years have endorsed Donald Trump for president. Rodman says that he considers Trump a good friend.

Sounds like the type of guy who would be really involved with the KKK!

This is just yet another example of how nerdy, unathletic, leftist whites do not at all relate to or understand the black people they defend simply for the sake of their own inner moral satisfaction.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/mike-tyson-endorses-donald-trump-2016_us_562e8853e4b00aa54a4aba46
 

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You've tried this one before. Just because a person is famous doesn't make them a political pundit, nor does it make them a spokesperson for their race. For sure, at least Mike Tyson and Dennis Rodman are fairly whacked. No surprise they like the Donald. But none of these people necessarily shares anything with every day black people, any more than they share anything with every day white people, latinos, etc. Mike Tyson bit a guy's ear off, Dennis Rodman loves the leader of North Korea and wears a dress, and...OK, you're right I don't know so much about Terrell Owens, but he's a millionaire athlete. It's actually more racist to pick out a couple of other like-minded media-hogs who happen to be black and say, "See? He's not racist." And to be clear, his stated racist policies don't so much really have to do with blacks. He's much more anti-latino and Muslim. He has also been outrageously denigrating to women. All of that still makes him a racist, an exclusionist, and a threat to reasonable conversation and good governance.
 
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Moxie

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You quoted the Huffington Post. For the record, almost all of their posts regarding Trump finish with this:

"Editor's note: Donald Trump is a serial liar, rampant xenophobe, racist, misogynist, birther and bully who has repeatedly pledged to ban all Muslims -- 1.6 billion members of an entire religion -- from entering the U.S."
 

britbox

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One thing that fascinates me with politics is how western electorates place an emphasis on stuff like sexism over involvement in foreign policy decisions that may cause tens of thousands of deaths.
 
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Moxie

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If Trump had a foreign policy position, we could debate it, but he doesn't. So we address his personality and prejudices because he is, make no mistake, purely running on his cult of personality. His "personality" includes his xenophobia, his arrogance, his prejudices and, yes, his sexism. Believe me, if there were a "bigger picture" with Donald Trump, we'd be much happier to debate that.
 
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Here's a take on Trump, and his potential effect on foreign issues:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/06/opinion/sunday/donald-the-dangerous.html?_r=0

I hope you realize that this is mere opinion and not necessarily based on any type of fact. This author and the "experts" he quotes are working under the assumption that Trump would simply attack anyone that disagrees with him. I doubt this is the case. If most people paid any attention they'd realize that one policy position that Trump talks about the most on the campaign trail is trade. He is fighting back against the establishment's trade policies that have, in his opinion, severely harmed domestic manufactures and workers. That doesn't seem so radical to me.

What the left and Republican establishment are most upset about is his delivery method. The left, those who lack any ability to digest objective fact and who are mostly morally bankrupt, constantly can Trump a racist and a Nazi. They are too stupid to realize that Trump is actually a product of their own making. Over the last few decades, the left has excoriated white people in this country. Any thing a white person says is racist. Any criticism of Obama is racist. For some reason, all contemporary white people are paying for the crimes of past slave owners and segregationists. Trump is tell all the social justice warriors who feed on identity politics to stick it up their ass. He is fighting back and they have no effective counter other than screaming "racist." The Republican establishment is up in arms since many of their supporters are tired of being thrown under the bus. How can the conservative party be conservative if government constantly grows no matter who controls government? How can we have a party that argues for state's rights yet allow the current administration to get away with its direct violations of written law? Not supporting and enforcing the boarder is a serious problem that the establishment's only answer to is "let's work on a path to citizenship." The Republican base is responding that this approach is less than ideal. They're not racist for wanting the boarder closed.. Rather, think of it this way: "You wouldn't object to our view if your jobs as CEOs, university professors, and business leaders were disappearing." The answer to the entire problem is economic and the Democratic and Republican parties don't get it.
 

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Asmo, I do realize it is an opinion piece. (The word is actually in the link.) And I would say that your comments are an opinion, too. Clearly you don't have much respect for the opinions of those on what stands in for the Left in the US, or for the actual quotes from those of conservatives who also don't have faith in Trump. I disagree that there is actually a Left in this country, or that they call anyone and everyone a racist. (Who do you hang out with?) But I most specifically disagree that Trump is a product of the Democrats' making. He is the absolutely the product of years of decisions that the Republicans have made, starting with the 60s and civil rights, which moved Southern Democrats on race issues towards the Republicans (Lincoln has surely been rolling in his grave ever since.) "States' rights." (Euphemism.) Then Reagan embraced the evangelicals, and made social issues part of their agenda. (He was staunchly anti-abortion.) This was uncomfortable for a lot of the old-guard, but they made a small peace with it. Then we elected Obama, and the Tea Party arose. Which the old-style Republicans pretty much immediately regretted. So, you've taken a party that was more or less fiscally conservative and rather hands-off on social issues...essentially libertarian, and now you've got a party that some Republicans don't recognize. With the division between the Old Guard and the Tea Partiers, and the disaffection created by the endless stalemates in Congress, suddenly, you get someone who comes up and works the crack, which has become a gulf, in this party. Donald Trump is the product of the Republican Party's pandering and compromises over the years. They've kept making strange bedfellows over the years, and now they want to pull the comforter over their heads, and they don't know how they got there. Now they're scrambling to see if the can Dump Trump, but they've waited too long. Even Christie Todd Whitman (ex-Governor of NJ) blames the Republicans for waiting to long to realize that Trump was a problem. But don't blame him on the Democrats. At least we still have the smartest people in the room.
 

calitennis127

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You've tried this one before. Just because a person is famous doesn't make them a political pundit, nor does it make them a spokesperson for their race. For sure, at least Mike Tyson and Dennis Rodman are fairly whacked. No surprise they like the Donald. But none of these people necessarily shares anything with every day black people, any more than they share anything with every day white people, latinos, etc. Mike Tyson bit a guy's ear off, Dennis Rodman loves the leader of North Korea and wears a dress, and...OK, you're right I don't know so much about Terrell Owens, but he's a millionaire athlete. It's actually more racist to pick out a couple of other like-minded media-hogs who happen to be black and say, "See? He's not racist." And to be clear, his stated racist policies don't so much really have to do with blacks. He's much more anti-latino and Muslim. He has also been outrageously denigrating to women. All of that still makes him a racist, an exclusionist, and a threat to reasonable conversation and good governance.

No Moxie, what I am making a point of on this thread is how shallow and tendentious the anti-Trump voices like yourself are with respect to his supposed "racism". I am also making a point of how little you actually understand black people, who most of the time are the polar opposite of you in their attitudes and psychology. All that you reveal with your "Trump is a racist" accusation is your extreme bias, your lack of evenhandedness, and your inability to be thorough in your judgment of someone's character. Trump has had many black friends with great notoriety throughout his life. No one, until he ran for president, considered him a racist. And that includes all of the Democratic politicians such as Hillary, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and others who took his donations and were friends with him.

Trump personally knows Tyson, Rodman, and Terrell Owens. If he had treated them with disrespect or made it clear that he did not enjoy their blackness, there is no way they would have endorsed him. He has connected with them on a personal level that most white leftists like yourself never have and never will. In practice, he is more pro-black than you or Federberg could ever dream of being. That is the point here. You are defining him based on narrow political parameters that are themselves based on false premises about human nature and history.

Also, for you to comment on "every day black people" is quite hilarious. As I have stated repeatedly, you clearly have no comprehension of them and have not been around them. Black people for you are an abstraction, and having certain attitudes toward the abstraction gives you moral fulfillment. Nothing you think or say about them has any basis in reality or would ever make anyone's life better.

Also, there is nothing in Trump's rhetoric which has been anti-Latino. He said that he wants a controlled border and an end to illegal immigration. He has not said a single negative word about Latinos as a group. If Trump is a racist for wanting a controlled border, then 99% of the countries in the world are racist countries.
 

calitennis127

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You quoted the Huffington Post. For the record, almost all of their posts regarding Trump finish with this:

"Editor's note: Donald Trump is a serial liar, rampant xenophobe, racist, misogynist, birther and bully who has repeatedly pledged to ban all Muslims -- 1.6 billion members of an entire religion -- from entering the U.S."


When one sends a link to an article, one is not necessarily endorsing everything that is said or written on the website. I consider the people at the Huffington Post to be highly misguided, as their shallow and knowledge-free remarks on Islam indicate.
 

calitennis127

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If Trump had a foreign policy position, we could debate it, but he doesn't. So we address his personality and prejudices because he is, make no mistake, purely running on his cult of personality. His "personality" includes his xenophobia, his arrogance, his prejudices and, yes, his sexism. Believe me, if there were a "bigger picture" with Donald Trump, we'd be much happier to debate that.


No Moxie, Trump does have foreign policy positions and that is one of his strong suits. You just happen to not be paying attention. Let's not forget that you are someone who thinks that Obama actually understands foreign policy issues and has serious knowledge of anything. In fact, you even think that you understand foreign policy issues.

Trump has denounced the war in Iraq (which has drawn the ire of the Republican establishment), called for a more evenhanded approach to Russia (entirely sensible), suggested a more neutral stance in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (entirely sensible), and condemned the Obama administration's foolish actions in Libya that have given rise to ISIS in that country (again, entirely sensible). I recommend that you follow the debates and the conversation a little bit closer before commenting so carelessly. You should work on getting your facts right.

Trump quite appropriately has said that Iraq and Libya would both be much better off "if our politicians had just gone to the beach". This is absolutely correct.
 

calitennis127

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He is the absolutely the product of years of decisions that the Republicans have made, starting with the 60s and civil rights, which moved Southern Democrats on race issues towards the Republicans (Lincoln has surely been rolling in his grave ever since.)

No knowledge of American history. Plain ignorance here. Moxie the ignoramus.

But don't blame him on the Democrats. At least we still have the smartest people in the room.

More like mediocrites and charlatans who are products of a leftist indoctrination system that teaches historical lies at every turn, and who fancy themselves well-informed after being brainwashed by it. Modern education and especially modern scholarship is a massive project of pretentious fakery that allows the left to sustain its cultural and political power.
 
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Moxie

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It's interesting to me how often you tell me I have no understanding of black people. But I know you to be a white guy, so what makes you such an expert? I grew up in DC/PG Co. MD, and I live in NYC. I know you like to make much of playing basketball, but I don't think that tells a whole community story. Do not tell me that African American people to me are an "abstraction." That assumes too much and is completely insulting, given what I've exposed to you about my personal story.

Donald Trump, by his own admission, doesn't actually have that many friends. He has endorsements, and I don't see why self-aggrandizers like Rodman and Tyson make a difference in terms of his collegiality with AA people. Also note the make-up of the people who get argued with and decked at his rallies. I will leave the German-American woman caught in the Nazi salute at a Trump rally on Twitter as huge misunderstanding, for the moment. Though, there are those who say: "If it walks like a duck...."

Now, just to get to that last bit of your latest: "Also, there is nothing in Trump's rhetoric which has been anti-Latino." Really? Even though he says that Mexican immigrants are rapists? That we have to build a wall? That Mexico sends its worst people to us, on purpose? Tell it to the Latino community here, because they are not buying that he is in any way their man.
 
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calitennis127

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It's interesting to me how often you tell me I have no understanding of black people. But I know you to be a white guy, so what makes you such an expert? I grew up in DC/PG Co. MD, and I live in NYC. I know you like to make much of playing basketball, but I don't think that tells a whole community story. Do not tell me that African American people to me are an "abstraction." That assumes too much and is completely insulting, given what I've exposed to you about my personal story.

For one thing, Mr. Obama himself generalized about and "stereotyped" black Americans in the midst of the Donald Sterling controversy a couple years ago when he said that the NBA was "integral to African-American culture". So why don't you contradict your beloved president? For once, he was actually right about something when he said that.

Being integrally involved with basketball is not simply about watching the ball go through the hoop and knowing the rules of the game. It exposes you to the psychology, mindset, musical preferences, and predilections of the people involved. It is a matter of character, personality, and psychology, not merely a preference of one sport over another. I have been to a range of different sporting events throughout my life, from NBA basketball games, to football games in the ghetto, to baseball games in the South, to ATP tennis events. The cultural differences of those in attendance are immense. When I am at Cincinnati watching tennis, I see rich white females texting and whispering to each other about their boyfriends or players who are cute. When I am at a football game in the hood, I hear people cussing out the refs. When I am at a baseball game in the South, I hear country music being played between innings. I could list a hundred other differences, but I will just leave it at this for the moment.

Unless you have been heavily involved with modern basketball or football and been exposed to contemporary black music on a regular basis, it is nearly impossible to understand the black cultural mindset that goes into something like the police brutality issue. It is a matter of knowledge, information, and understanding, not intentions or wishes.

On top of all this this, I have worked at an inner-city school and I have a friend who worked in an all-black inner-city school for 3 years. I have a wealth of experiences and anecdotes to draw from in forming my opinions that go beyond the white leftist cliches that Obama learned from his white influences. Obama's words fit a preconceived script designed by white leftists.

Donald Trump, by his own admission, doesn't actually have that many friends. He has endorsements, and I don't see why self-aggrandizers like Rodman and Tyson make a difference in terms of his collegiality with AA people.

Which just proves my point about how little you understand them.

Also note the make-up of the people who get argued with and decked at his rallies.

Right, they are either white Moveon.org leftists or #BlackLivesMatter protesters, who usually happen to be black. The individual who got punched by the old white guy had been giving people the finger and shouting obscenities to disrupt the rally for Trump. He was trying to instigate and annoy people. But you need to stop generalizing - not all black people are BlackLivesMatter protestors. That is a very offensive stereotype. You may recall my link about how Tavis Smiley said he is hearing from many of his black listeners that they plan on voting for Trump, or you may recall this video of two black women rallying for Trump:



I will leave the German-American woman caught in the Nazi salute at a Trump rally on Twitter as huge misunderstanding, for the moment. Though, there are those who say: "If it walks like a duck...."

No one in America knows anything about German history. I don't take these comparisons seriously because they are cheap and artificial. Your remarks only prove my point about the horrible quality of education in America today that leads people to constantly make this comparison.

Now, just to get to that last bit of your latest: "Also, there is nothing in Trump's rhetoric which has been anti-Latino." Really?

Yes, advocating a secured border and legal immigration is not anti-Latino. If advocating a secured border and legal immigration is anti-Latino, then the Mexican government is anti-Latino for locking down its border with Guatemala and harshly punishing illegal immigrants from Guatemala and Honduras with immediate imprisonment.

Trump also celebrated that he won 46% of the Hispanic Republican vote in the Nevada caucus and called Hispanics "wonderful people". If he hated Latin culture, he would not say such things.

Even though he says that Mexican immigrants are rapists?

He does not say that all Mexican immigrants are rapists. He has indicated that some illegal immigrants have been individuals with serious criminal records who have harmed Americans, including Americans of Hispanic origin. This is something that is factually documented and accurate.

That we have to build a wall?

Again, if having a secured border is racist, then Mexico itself is racist and the entire world is racist.

That Mexico sends its worst people to us, on purpose?

This is largely true and it is a shot at the ineffective and corrupt Mexican government, not Latinos as a group.

Tell it to the Latino community here, because they are not buying that he is in any way their man.

And that is because of two things: 1) the traditional Mexican hostility toward the USA that goes back to the Mexican-American War and the Gadsden Purchase (this is nothing unusual; it is much like the traditional British-French tensions), and 2) the influence of the Hispanic media, many of whose loudest voices (e.g. Jorge Ramos) are products of the white leftist brainwashing of American universities and the media. Ramos went to school in the USA and learned all of the tag lines about white oppression and white racism from his white leftist professors. It is people like him who corrupt the minds of regular Hispanics and make them think that Trump hates them. Regular Hispanics often like Trump when they hear his words unfiltered and know him personally, which is why he won the Hispanic Republican vote in Nevada in a landslide.
 
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Moxie

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I'm not sure what "traditional Mexican hostility you speak of," but if you want to trade experience, since you're the expert on all things African-American, I guarantee you I have more experience of Mexico, and Mexican-Americans than you have. I have spent months in Mexico, for work and leisure, and, since I speak Spanish, which I'm pretty sure you don't, I have had a very good access to Mexican opinion of US Americans, across various class lines, in different parts of Mexico. They are hugely more generous to us than we are to them.
 

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I'm not sure what "traditional Mexican hostility you speak of," but if you want to trade experience, since you're the expert on all things African-American, I guarantee you I have more experience of Mexico, and Mexican-Americans than you have. I have spent months in Mexico, for work and leisure, and, since I speak Spanish, which I'm pretty sure you don't, I have had a very good access to Mexican opinion of US Americans, across various class lines, in different parts of Mexico. They are hugely more generous to us than we are to them.

Moxie, maybe you should read my post and logically respond to the points I made. I did not make a single comment even hinting at hostility toward Latinos or Latin culture. Presently I work in an area where there are a high number of illegal immigrants and I interact with them on a daily basis. I generally prefer Latin music to white music. As you know, I prefer South American tennis players to American tennis players. I generally think Latin females are more fun to be around than white females. (And I speak some Spanish but am not fluent.)

As for the hostility toward the U.S. displayed by some Mexicans, I am not saying that this is visceral or widely animating feature. I compared it to historic British-French tensions, which never entailed ordinary people on both sides absolutely hating everything about the other side. However, there has been a movement for "Reconquista" pushed by certain Latin advocacy groups such as La Raza to take back the American Southwest through demographic conquest. This is widely documented. Also, during the disruption of Trump's rally in Chicago on Friday night, there were numerous immigrants waving the Mexican flag to taunt Trump supporters. Back in 2006 during the nationwide immigrant protests, Mexican flags were also being waved by the crowds and there were signs that had catchphrases like "This is Stolen Land" or "Stolen since 1492" or "Hey Gringodumbf*cks, go back to Europe".

Now, not all Mexicans feel this way and many Mexicans are fine people, but let's not forget that the 1840s and 1850s there were major tensions between the U.S. and Mexico and the U.S. did expand at the time. Mexican textbooks often teach a very anti-American version of this episode.

Finally, while I know that many Mexicans are great people, I do not see how it makes any sense to say they are "hugely more generous to us than we are to them" given that we have allowed millions of them to enter our country illegally and utilize our government services, educational institutions, and medical facilities while being in illegal status. That seems quite generous to me.
 

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I'm sure you're genially disposed to Mexicans, that you like latin music and latin women. What's not to like? You probably like guacamole. But we're talking about Trump. He has been endlessly incendiary against them, and I don't know how you can deny that. And of all the small generosities you think we've offered them, for picking our fields and tending to our gardens, and our buildings as supers, and being our busboys, our nannies, our also hollywood directors and stars and politicians...we speak badly of them, in the person of Donald Trump, and many others. They don't speak badly of us. So, yes, I'd say they are hugely more generous in spirit to us than we are to them. If you think giving them some grudging and sneering solace in their need is generous, I would beg to disagree.
 

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Cali, how do you compare black male basketball players and white female tennis fans and draw conclusions from it??

Do you do the same with black female gospel singers and white boxers?

... and would the conclusions be the same?
 
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calitennis127

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I'm sure you're genially disposed to Mexicans, that you like latin music and latin women. What's not to like? You probably like guacamole. But we're talking about Trump. He has been endlessly incendiary against them, and I don't know how you can deny that. And of all the small generosities you think we've offered them, for picking our fields and tending to our gardens, and our buildings as supers, and being our busboys, our nannies, our also hollywood directors and stars and politicians...we speak badly of them, in the person of Donald Trump, and many others. They don't speak badly of us. So, yes, I'd say they are hugely more generous in spirit to us than we are to them. If you think giving them some grudging and sneering solace in their need is generous, I would beg to disagree.

Moxie, I would like you to offer one shred of evidence that Trump has been "endlessly incendiary" against Mexicans. Have you actually paid attention to what he has said, or just how the white leftist media has twisted it? What he has repeatedly condemned is "illegal immigration", and he has had the temerity to comment on the thoroughly documented misconduct and disturbing patterns among a number of illegal immigrants (not all, but a sizable portion). A report from the Texas Department of Public Safety has showed that between 2008 and 2014, there were nearly 8,000 sexual assaults and 3.000 murders in the state of Texas carried out by illegal aliens. Now what do you say to the families and friends of those who were victimized by these illegal immigrants? Oh, too bad?

There is nothing racist or bigoted whatsoever about calling for legal immigration, which is all Trump has done. Someone who pathologically hated Hispanics would not celebrate winning their vote in Nevada with 46% support like he did. The idea with immigration is to take the best and give decent people a chance. But there is nothing smart about chaos and disorder on a massive scale.

My problem with permitting this massive influx of illegal immigrants is that it is being orchestrated in the US (as well as in Europe) by people who are not motivated by love, but by hate. If someone was to make a cosmopolitan argument that we should allow massive Latino immigration for cultural enrichment, then I would at least respect it. I would not entirely agree with it, but I would respect it. However, that is not what we have in the United States. Illegal immigration is being allowed because of the utter hatred that the Northeastern white and Jewish elites have for traditional Western civilization. People such as yourself are entirely bigoted toward the red-state Middle Americans who simply want to mind their business and be left alone. Somehow small-government Tea Party people are painted as dangerous, disgusting monsters because they want to keep to themselves and maintain their way of life without being harassed by the federal government. I know that this is how leftists feel because I grew up among them and I have interacted with them my entire life. I was actually raised to be one. Anything that dilutes the concept of a Western Christian male-dominated society is good, even if it entails bringing in Muslims who believe in a system of female enslavement and hatred of all other religions.

Young children in America are taught today that they are the descendants of racists and bigots who committed the worst crimes in human history. It is for this reason, more than any other, that illegal immigration is being allowed. It is not being allowed because there is a widespread movement in America for learning Spanish and embracing the best aspects of Latin culture. If anything, the ruling class in the U.S. is an enemy of Hispanics in the long run because it will degrade them.

Also, all civilizations have their imperfections and flaws. The West has been the greatest but it has been far from perfect and brought quite a bit of misery to other parts of the world at different times. In the case of Latin civilization, it certainly has some noble aspects, but it has its pitfalls and shortcomings as well. If it was perfect, there wouldn't be millions of poor people fleeing Central America to sneak into the United States illegally.
 

calitennis127

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Cali, how do you compare black male basketball players and white female tennis fans and draw conclusions from it??

Do you do the same with black female gospel singers and white boxers?

... and would the conclusions be the same?


If one is observant, there is no avoiding certain realities, Britbox. Cultural differences and patterns are there for us to study and understand, not ignore or wish away.

But to directly answer your question, I have been exposed to radically different environments when it comes to athletics. The people I have encountered through basketball/football and tennis are generally so different that they would never interact with each other. There is no avoiding this.

There is also a genetic basis at work here. Different games provoke different reactions and draw different personalities to them. It is no coincidence that most people who like tennis tend to come from more affluent and refined backgrounds. Tennis matches can be as quiet as orchestral venues. It is also no coincidence that the demographic which gave the world jazz music dominates a game (basketball) that is essentially about rhythm, flow, and improvisation.