Internazionali BNL d'Italia - ATP 1000 - May 11th to May 18th

[Front242]

^ Yeah right.

You're only wishing too hard that Rafa would lose. I told you after the first set ended that Rafa would win...

I'm no fan of either guy but simply saying it as it is as a neutral fan, Murray folded like a cheap tent at the end. He was up 4-2 and running away with it, Nadal got back on level terms but towards the very end Murray's level really dropped and his game deserted him. Hence why I said it was all for nothing. Obviously it's good to win a set against Nadal on clay, better still 6-1 but if you ultimately lose the match 'cos of your own stupid tennis at the end it was clearly all for nothing.

This is the second time you say that Murray 'folded like a cheap tent,' and I resisted the first. That comment is both unfair to Murray and to Nadal. You say you're not a fan of either, but we both know that you're 'anyone-but-Nadal.' It galls you no end when someone blows a chance to beat Nadal, but you never give Rafa the credit for wresting it back, which I think he did here, today. Andy played the best match he's played since his surgery. But he didn't gift it over to Nadal. Rafa got aggressive and snatched it away.

Sorry but if you really think Nadal won 9 points in a row at the end out of sheer skill and aggressive play and that Murray didn't at least lose a few of those with crap play (try half) then I've nothing further to say.

 

[Front242]

It's always all Nadal :nono

 

[Front242]

^ Before I go to bed...I also suppose it was all Nadal the warrior that won the match in Rio against Andujar also despite the fact that the 2 final points were donated by Andujar slap bang in the middle of the net courtesy of forehand errors ?! :nono These guys can smell blood and his aura alone is no longer frightening them. It's poor execution by the opponent in closing out that miraculously won the match in Rio as Andujar wasn't trembling with fear playing Nadal at all that day. Likewise Murray certainly donated a large amount of slop at the end. Not saying Nadal didn't play better towards the end, as he dd, but it certainly was NOT all about him "snatching it away" from Murray.

 

[DarthFed]

His fans really take on the Wafa mentality in a way. Give the utmost praise to the opponent...so long as they lose. The losers of the match are often heroic, bold, great, etc. It is an interesting mentality. Kind of ridiculous if anyone truly believes those things. Short of dying on court there is nothing worse a player can do than lose...

 

[Moxie]

His fans really take on the Wafa mentality in a way. Give the utmost praise to the opponent...so long as they lose. The losers of the match are often heroic, bold, great, etc. It is an interesting mentality. Kind of ridiculous if anyone truly believes those things. Short of dying on court there is nothing worse a player can do than lose...

Good lord, there's nothing wrong with praising a player, even if he loses. And I don't think Nadal fans have failed to praise the opponent when Rafa has lost. I know you believe the only valor is in the win, but some of us see a few more shades of gray.

 

[Moxie]

^ Before I go to bed...I also suppose it was all Nadal the warrior that won the match in Rio against Andujar also despite the fact that the 2 final points were donated by Andujar slap bang in the middle of the net courtesy of forehand errors ?! :nono These guys can smell blood and his aura alone is no longer frightening them. It's poor execution by the opponent in closing out that miraculously won the match in Rio as Andujar wasn't trembling with fear playing Nadal at all that day. Likewise Murray certainly donated a large amount of slop at the end. Not saying Nadal didn't play better towards the end, as he dd, but it certainly was NOT all about him "snatching it away" from Murray.

No one said it was all about Nadal. You were trying to make it all about Murray blowing it. People that watched the match know how it went down.

As to Andujar in Rio…I'm so pleased everyone is paying attention to Pablo Andujar. He's super gorgeous. Pretty nice game, too. But let's be honest, you didn't even know how to spell his name until he played one great match against Nadal. You can remember every error that any journeyman (or elite player) made against Nadal when they had a half-chance. (You bring up Brands at RG endlessly, for example.) However, you never credit Nadal for pulling off the win. That's your prejudice. But don't pretend that we Rafa fans are trying to make it all about Nadal. It's not like any of us are saying he's back to looking like a world-beater right now.

 

[rahulpawar]

Rafa is clearly not at his best. But has he improved from MC or Madrid ? Definitely. He was passive in the first set against Murray, playing only safe shots which were hardly deep. But in the second and third set he was aggressive and playing a lot more deeper. I think a good measure of how good Nadal is playing is by the quality and quantity of his DTL forehands. He hardly played a DTL forehand against Nishikori in the Madrid final. However, in the two final two sets against Murray he was hitting a lot more DTL forehands and with consistency as well. He is definitely more vulnerable than ever on clay but if you look at Nadal's career he usually comes stronger when he is vulnerable and definitely lifts his game depending upon the quality of the opponent.

 

[Kieran]

...

The fact is, Murray kept trying til the end. He may have been gassed, but he didn't fold or melt down.

...

I don't know what you call "melt down" but in my book losing 9 out of 10 points at the end of match like Murray did is melting down, kinda worse like a nuclear melt-down or in tennis terms, a royal choke.

And I thought you said Ladies Tennis is rubbish.

Women's tennis is rubbish. And it's wholly inaccurate and biased to say that every time a player wins so many points, it must be because his opponent gifted them to him. I remember last years MC final, Nole won a similar amount of points from 5-6 in the second set, Rafa about to serve. Rafa didn't melt down, Nole raised his game. That's what happened...

 

[brokenshoelace]

^ Yeah right.

You're only wishing too hard that Rafa would lose. I told you after the first set ended that Rafa would win...

I'm no fan of either guy but simply saying it as it is as a neutral fan, Murray folded like a cheap tent at the end. He was up 4-2 and running away with it, Nadal got back on level terms but towards the very end Murray's level really dropped and his game deserted him. Hence why I said it was all for nothing. Obviously it's good to win a set against Nadal on clay, better still 6-1 but if you ultimately lose the match 'cos of your own stupid tennis at the end it was clearly all for nothing.

This is the second time you say that Murray 'folded like a cheap tent,' and I resisted the first. That comment is both unfair to Murray and to Nadal. You say you're not a fan of either, but we both know that you're 'anyone-but-Nadal.' It galls you no end when someone blows a chance to beat Nadal, but you never give Rafa the credit for wresting it back, which I think he did here, today. Andy played the best match he's played since his surgery. But he didn't gift it over to Nadal. Rafa got aggressive and snatched it away.

Sorry but if you really think Nadal won 9 points in a row at the end out of sheer skill and aggressive play and that Murray didn't at least lose a few of those with crap play (try half) then I've nothing further to say.

My main issue with the above is that it just doesn't take into account that it's understandable for Murray not to be able to match the intensity of playing Nadal on clay after 3 hours of high quality tennis (at least on Murray's part). It's not that Murray played great during that stretch. It's that there's an understandable reason for why he didn't.

How many times have you seen this happen against Nadal? More times than you can count. And why is that?

 

[Kieran]

His fans really take on the Wafa mentality in a way. Give the utmost praise to the opponent...so long as they lose. The losers of the match are often heroic, bold, great, etc. It is an interesting mentality. Kind of ridiculous if anyone truly believes those things. Short of dying on court there is nothing worse a player can do than lose...

As for losing and dying, let the players worry about that. We're observers, so even if they feel that the worst thing in the world happened, we have the luxury of being able to weight it up differently. And as I said above somewhere, it's often in a defeat that a player learns most about how he can win. Murray will take positives from this match, no doubt about it...

 

[herios]

I think with this match both Rafa and Andy are back.

Murray is not back.

wrong. lol.

If your idea of "being back" is being able to play a close match with a poor Nadal then you're right! LOL

IMO, being back means winning titles again. Or even making a final once in a while. Murray has done neither in almost a year. He ain't back.

wrong. lol.

Of course you are wrong. He is back ...in EDngland

 

[brokenshoelace]

His fans really take on the Wafa mentality in a way. Give the utmost praise to the opponent...so long as they lose. The losers of the match are often heroic, bold, great, etc. It is an interesting mentality.

I agree. I'd also add that they are guilty of occasional excuse making like he is.

But that post made me think, and I realized the same could be said about Federer fans: It's all about him. Nothing and no one else matters. Never give credit to the opponent. If he plays well he should never lose, ever. Act with a sense of superiority, etc...

Then I thought about Novak fans. And I realized how much they complain about the boards being "Fedal forums," and that there aren't enough Novak fans, the same way Nole himself complains when the crowd is against him (though many of them lack his sense of humor).

Then I thought about Ferrer fans, and realized they don't exist.

So, what do you know, we're more like the players we root for than we like to think... Nothing wrong with that, unless you're a Cilic fan.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

So to sum it all up, I am not happy with the Clay Warrior?:snigger

 

[brokenshoelace]

So to sum it all up, I am not happy with the Clay Warrior?:snigger

Affirmative lord general Murat old sport.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

So to sum it all up, I am not happy with the Clay Warrior?:snigger

Affirmative lord general Murat old sport.

:lolz:

 

[the AntiPusher]

So to sum it all up, I am not happy with the Clay Warrior?:snigger

Affirmative lord general Murat old sport.

I am happy with the way the dirt devil stared at defeat 2-4 in the 3 rd and decided to become the Clay Warrior again.Winning the last 9 points against Murray, that takes some real no pun intended, moxie:snigger:clap

 

[Front242]

^ Before I go to bed...I also suppose it was all Nadal the warrior that won the match in Rio against Andujar also despite the fact that the 2 final points were donated by Andujar slap bang in the middle of the net courtesy of forehand errors ?! :nono These guys can smell blood and his aura alone is no longer frightening them. It's poor execution by the opponent in closing out that miraculously won the match in Rio as Andujar wasn't trembling with fear playing Nadal at all that day. Likewise Murray certainly donated a large amount of slop at the end. Not saying Nadal didn't play better towards the end, as he dd, but it certainly was NOT all about him "snatching it away" from Murray.

No one said it was all about Nadal. You were trying to make it all about Murray blowing it. People that watched the match know how it went down.

As to Andujar in Rio…I'm so pleased everyone is paying attention to Pablo Andujar. He's super gorgeous. Pretty nice game, too. But let's be honest, you didn't even know how to spell his name until he played one great match against Nadal. You can remember every error that any journeyman (or elite player) made against Nadal when they had a half-chance. (You bring up Brands at RG endlessly, for example.) However, you never credit Nadal for pulling off the win. That's your prejudice. But don't pretend that we Rafa fans are trying to make it all about Nadal. It's not like any of us are saying he's back to looking like a world-beater right now.

I've seen many matches where Nadal was losing and played very well to come back and win but just saying, that win yesterday was not all about Nadal snatching victory from Murray. Andy helped quite a bit with the charity donations at the end.

As a neutral fan you can easily see when one player's level dips dramatically and the opponent's level is steady if nothing spectacular. In instances like those I find it hard to say one player snatched away victory so much as the one who was ahead till 2/3 of the way just collapsed, be it fatigue, lack of focus at the wrong time or whatever. If Nadal had turned from what he was like in set 1 to how he played against Verdasco at Monte Carlo 2010 (the best display of clay court tennis I've ever seen from Nadal) then I'd be the first to say he went from poor/mediocre to amazing and that was why he won, but here he didn't. He went from poor first set, to mediocre and slightly better at the end of set 3. Murray was the polar opposite there. Started very strong, especially his serving, so so 2nd set and admittedly Nadal played better in set 2 than before, decent 2/3 of set 3 but his game for whatever reason deserted him at the crucial final phase of the match.

 

[Kieran]

Brother, you're pushing a very obvious agenda with this...

 

[Moxie]

^ Before I go to bed...I also suppose it was all Nadal the warrior that won the match in Rio against Andujar also despite the fact that the 2 final points were donated by Andujar slap bang in the middle of the net courtesy of forehand errors ?! :nono These guys can smell blood and his aura alone is no longer frightening them. It's poor execution by the opponent in closing out that miraculously won the match in Rio as Andujar wasn't trembling with fear playing Nadal at all that day. Likewise Murray certainly donated a large amount of slop at the end. Not saying Nadal didn't play better towards the end, as he dd, but it certainly was NOT all about him "snatching it away" from Murray.

No one said it was all about Nadal. You were trying to make it all about Murray blowing it. People that watched the match know how it went down.

As to Andujar in Rio…I'm so pleased everyone is paying attention to Pablo Andujar. He's super gorgeous. Pretty nice game, too. But let's be honest, you didn't even know how to spell his name until he played one great match against Nadal. You can remember every error that any journeyman (or elite player) made against Nadal when they had a half-chance. (You bring up Brands at RG endlessly, for example.) However, you never credit Nadal for pulling off the win. That's your prejudice. But don't pretend that we Rafa fans are trying to make it all about Nadal. It's not like any of us are saying he's back to looking like a world-beater right now.

I've seen many matches where Nadal was losing and played very well to come back and win but just saying, that win yesterday was not all about Nadal snatching victory from Murray. Andy helped quite a bit with the charity donations at the end.

As a neutral fan you can easily see when one player's level dips dramatically and the opponent's level is steady if nothing spectacular. In instances like those I find it hard to say one player snatched away victory so much as the one who was ahead till 2/3 of the way just collapsed, be it fatigue, lack of focus at the wrong time or whatever. If Nadal had turned from what he was like in set 1 to how he played against Verdasco at Monte Carlo 2010 (the best display of clay court tennis I've ever seen from Nadal) then I'd be the first to say he went from poor/mediocre to amazing and that was why he won, but here he didn't. He went from poor first set, to mediocre and slightly better at the end of set 3. Murray was the polar opposite there. Started very strong, especially his serving, so so 2nd set and admittedly Nadal played better in set 2 than before, decent 2/3 of set 3 but his game for whatever reason deserted him at the crucial final phase of the match.

You can hardly be called "neutral" when it comes to Nadal, eh? You complain bitterly that everyone collapses when Nadal wins, no matter how lowly ranked they might be. Andy is not that player, of course. He did start very strongly, to Nadal's mediocre/poor. From there, I'd say we saw the match more or less the same. You seem to be only objecting to the notion that Nadal "snatched it away" from Murray, v. your notion that Murray blew it. Within the machinations of that 3rd set, both things are true, I suppose. But Nadal did get much more aggressive, which is something that I'd think you would appreciate.

Except that you'd rather eat dirt than give Nadal credit for any win. (Oh, except that Verdasco one, which was a complete blow-out, and even you couldn't spin it differently.)

 

[brokenshoelace]

his game for whatever reason deserted him at the crucial final phase of the match.

I actually agree 100% with your post. I'd also agree with the above statement if it hadn't been for "whatever reason." Where I differ with a lot of the non-Rafa fans when it comes to "OMG X PLAYER IMPLODED" is not whether or not they imploded (though I do feel this would be too strong a word to describe the Murray match), but rather, the way said fans act like this implosion is just random, with no rhyme or reasons behind it.

Serious question: how many times have you seen it happen against Nadal?

If I say that, it probably happened some 50 times in Rafa's career, would you say that's an accurate number? Hell, I'd say it's probably too low a number.

Why do you think that is? All you have to do is read Murray's own quotes:

"I'm disappointed with the game I played at 4-2, I was still in a good position but you don't get many chances against him. He finished very well and was physically stronger than me in the end," Murray said.

"Maybe I rushed a bit. I feel like I had the right shots in that match but messed them up."

Now, I am not saying Murray was completely out of gas, neither is he, but he did acknowledge that Nadal had an extra bit of physicality towards the end. After such a match, against Nadal, on clay, you are bound to lose some intensity towards the end because it's taken so much out of you. Meanwhile, Nadal is generally still able to play with the same intensity, and the same physicality. That split second extra quickness (compared to the opponent), that little extra spring in his steps and fire on his shots is the difference between splitting 8 points and winning 8 points in a row. It's tennis, a point can only go two ways.

Murray talking about rushing his shots is another sign of fatigue and not thinking clearly. It's a sign of not having confidence in yourself to match Nadal in longer rallies, so you just want to end them quickly.

Nadal has been winning tennis matches since 2005 (well, before that, but you know what I mean), it's time to get used to certain things, and not rue how Brands could have beaten him at RG last year because he was up a set and got the second to a tie-breaker (No joke: gun to my head, I would have still picked Nadal to win the match down two sets to love).