How much do (very good to great) players improve after age 22?

El Dude

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The conversation about Jannik Sinner turning 22 got me thinking: How much improvement can we expect from a player who just turned 22? What are the historical precedents? While every player is different and new precedents are always waiting to be made, let's take a look at what has come before.

I looked at every player who had a 2200 peak Elo or higher, of which there are 88. Sinner's peak so far is 2176, so these are all players who peaked slightly higher or better than he has - and a group which he will almost certainly join at some point in the near future.

I then compared their best Elo rating through their 22nd birthday with their eventual peak. I cut out 14 players who turned 22 before the beginning of the Open Era in 1968 and also cut out one player who hasn't turned 22 yet: Carlos Alcaraz, whose peak Elo of 2344 is 22nd all-time.

That left me with 73 players with peak Elo ratings of 2200 or higher also who turned 22 during the Open Era.

Of those 73 players, 24 of them had a higher peak Elo by their 22nd birthday than Sinner, or about one-third. Those 24 players include every "all-time great"--that is, players who won at least 6 Slams--plus a bunch of lesser and near greats, and one or two disappointments.

Of the 73 players, 11 of them had age 22 best Elos within 20 (+ or -) of Sinner. In other words, 11 players are close comps to Sinner, as far as his peak Elo up through his 22nd birthday.

In order of peak Elo at age 22, with increase to peak Elo and peak career Elo in parentheses:

2185 Marin CIlic (+47, 2232)
2181 Guillermo Coria (+47, 2229)
2176 Jannik Sinner
2175 Stefanos Tsitsipas (+83, 2258)
2175 Raul Ramirez (+74, 2249)
2173 Yevgeny Kafelnikov (+43, 2216)
2171 Juan Carlos Ferrero (+54, 2225)
2169 Jose Luis Clerc (+128, 2297)
2168 Guillermo Vilas (+263, 2431)
2167 Pat Cash (+50, 2217)
2166 Yannick Noah (+102, 2268)
2164 Eliot Teltscher (+36, 2200)

So these are the closest comps to Sinner according to peak Elo through age 22. Of the eleven players, six of them won Slams - or slightly more than half - but only two won multiple Slams. Guillermo Vilas is by far the best player, with 4 Slams and a peak Elo of 2431, higher than many notable players who were considered greater (Sampras, Becker, Agassi, Edberg, and Wilander). In other words, of the most similar players by age 22 peak Elo, Vilas represents the upper end of Sinner's potential.

Of the 11 players, the range of improvement was from +36 (Teltscher) to +263 (Vilas), with a median of +54 and an average of +84. Using those two as likely ranges for Sinner's upside would put him peaking at 2230 to 2260, which would put him somewhere in the #50-65ish range. Using the full range would give Sinner a broader range of 2212 to 2439...which is the difference between a perennial top 10 guy to an all-time great. So there's still a wide range of possible outcomes for Sinner, though the mostly likely is in the 2230-2260 range (or, if we want to be more charitable, 2250-2300).

Addendu: An Interesting Find
I charted every player by their age 22 Elo (Y-axis) and range of improvement (X-axis) and came up with this rough chart:

Screen Shot 2023-09-05 at 9.47.53 PM.png

Alright, this isn't super accurate as a lot of the grouped players should be more tightly packed then they appear on the chart, but it gives a general picture. This chart illustrates an interesting finding: Notice the trend. Most players are grouped in a diagonal trend, starting with Del Potro, Courier etc in the "non-improvement" category, then angling downward all the way to Nastase and Dibbs - the players that improved the most from age 22 to peak (both broke in very late).

The players that don't fit in the general trend pattern are all greats. Or to put it another way, the greats are all outliers -- especially Djokovic and Federer, who among the ATGs improved the most from age 22 to their respective peaks (Roger at age 25, Novak at age 28).

The players in that first column had their highest Elo before turning 22, with Becker the only true great who didn't improve at all. Other than Becker, it is mostly a list of rather infamous disappointments: Del Potro due to an injury-plagued career; Courier for that high early peak and then quick decline; Hewitt and Roddick for early peaks and then more gradual declines as Federer took over the tour; Ivanisevic had the late Slam, but was at his best early on; and Kent Carlsson due to a recurrent knee injury.

Anyhow, what that diagonal trend tells me is this: Most elite players peak in the 2200-2350 range, regardless of how early they start or how quickly they develop, except for a few outliers. Meaning, the diagonal trend shows us that regardless of where they are at by their 22nd birthday, most of the top 73 players by peak Elo trend along a similar line, and within a similar range. To some degree this isn't surprising: Of the 2200 Elo players, most of them peaked below 2350. But it also illustrates just how much some players are outliers, relative to the pack.

The outliers we call "all-time greats." Meaning, there is something that separates the ATGs from everyone else, and it isn't immediately apparent; sometimes it is, but often it takes a bit for them to really separate. In other words, some of it is how good they are at an early age, but some of it is also how they continue to develop after an early age. How they continue to improve their game.

Novak and Roger stand out in that regard. If they followed a more typical ATG curve, they would have maxed out more in the 2350-2400 Elo range. But both surpassed escape velocity into the stratosphere, sometime in their early-to-mid 20s.

As far as Sinner is concerned, he's most similar to the players in the second and third columns, who improved by up to about 100 Elo points, so chances are he ends up with a career similar to those names. Alcaraz, on the other hand, is almost certainly destined for greatness - his pre-22 highest Elo is already better than Sampras, Agassi, Djokovic and Federer, and he's still got almost two years until he turns 22. While he could end up being another Becker and peak sometime in the next year or so, at this point, the sky's the limit and he has a good chance to surpass the rarified 2500 threshold.
 
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rafanoy1992

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To answer your question: Yes, but it depends on what you consider a great player. The main problem right now in tennis is that both fans and the media got used to the success of the Big Four that anything less than their accomplishments is not success or great accomplishments to other players.

For example, like I stated before, I do not think Sinner will win 5 - 8 slams and win 10+ Masters 1000 tournaments. I just think he is not as athletic or does not have the huge serve that can easily finish points.

Now, do I think Sinner can win 2-3 slams, let's say win 5 M1000 tournaments and maybe become World No.1? Absolutely! And even if he only does two out of three (slams and M1000 tournaments), I would consider that a great accomplishment and great career.

People and fans will think that my expectations are "low" but I would say after having the Big Three, we all need to tamper expectations on these young players. Like some athletes say, "I do not get too high or too low."

That's my mantra with Alcaraz too and I am not even an Alcaraz fan. For me personally, as long he remains healthy and he keeps consistently go deep on major tournaments, I am not too worried about him.
 
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El Dude

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To answer your question: Yes, but it depends on what you consider a great player. The main problem right now in tennis is that both fans and the media got used to the success of the Big Four that anything less than their accomplishments is not success or great accomplishments to other players.

For example, like I stated before, I do not think Sinner will win 5 - 8 slams and win 10+ Masters 1000 tournaments. I just think he is not as athletic or does not have the huge serve that can easily finish points.

Now, do I think Sinner can win 2-3 slams, let's say win 5 M1000 tournaments and maybe become World No.1? Absolutely! And even if he only does two out of three (slams and M1000 tournaments), I would consider that a great accomplishment and great career.

People and fans will think that my expectations are "low" but I would say after having the Big Three, we all need to tamper expectations on these young players. Like some athletes say, "I do not get too high or too low."

That's my mantra with Alcaraz too and I am not even an Alcaraz fan. For me personally, as long he remains healthy and he keeps consistently go deep on major tournaments, I am not too worried about him.
I definitely agree and have said as much, regarding skewed expectations because of the Big Four (or Three). I think that what you describe is within the realm of possibility for Sinner, though it represents the upper end of the scale, imo. The lower end is something similar to Tsonga or Berdych, albeit with more big titles due to the lack of the Big Four Hegemony.

To be honest, I'm looking forward to (and enjoying) a new era with a more open field. I appreciated the greatness of the Big Three, but it got sort of tedious wondering which of them would win the latest Slam or, for awhile, even Masters. Andy was the occasional "surprise" and Stan for a bit, but it was so top-heavy and for so long. I suppose we're kind of seeing a Big Two right now, with Novak and Alcaraz winning the last five Slams (and Rafa the two before), but at least there's a feeling that someone else can win one.

What I hope to see and expect going forward is a wider pool of Slam contenders: Alcaraz on top, but Rune a serious threat and eventually occasional #1, then a more steady gradation downward, with half a dozen or more players capable of contending at a given Slam. Novak isn't letting go yet, and I somewhat suspect that Rafa has one more push in him. But even with those two still in the mix, they're more vulnerable than in the past, so the field is more open.
 
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Jelenafan

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The conversation about Jannik Sinner turning 22 got me thinking: How much improvement can we expect from a player who just turned 22? What are the historical precedents? While every player is different and new precedents are always waiting to be made, let's take a look at what has come before.

I looked at every player who had a 2200 peak Elo or higher, of which there are 88. Sinner's peak so far is 2176, so these are all players who peaked slightly higher or better than he has - and a group which he will almost certainly join at some point in the near future.

I then compared their best Elo rating through their 22nd birthday with their eventual peak. I cut out 14 players who turned 22 before the beginning of the Open Era in 1968 and also cut out one player who hasn't turned 22 yet: Carlos Alcaraz, whose peak Elo of 2344 is 22nd all-time.

That left me with 73 players with peak Elo ratings of 2200 or higher also who turned 22 during the Open Era.

Of those 73 players, 24 of them had a higher peak Elo by their 22nd birthday than Sinner, or about one-third. Those 24 players include every "all-time great"--that is, players who won at least 6 Slams--plus a bunch of lesser and near greats, and one or two disappointments.

Of the 73 players, 11 of them had age 22 best Elos within 20 (+ or -) of Sinner. In other words, 11 players are close comps to Sinner, as far as his peak Elo up through his 22nd birthday.

In order of peak Elo at age 22, with increase to peak Elo and peak career Elo in parentheses:

2185 Marin CIlic (+47, 2232)
2181 Guillermo Coria (+47, 2229)
2176 Jannik Sinner
2175 Stefanos Tsitsipas (+83, 2258)
2175 Raul Ramirez (+74, 2249)
2173 Yevgeny Kafelnikov (+43, 2216)
2171 Juan Carlos Ferrero (+54, 2225)
2169 Jose Luis Clerc (+128, 2297)
2168 Guillermo Vilas (+263, 2431)
2167 Pat Cash (+50, 2217)
2166 Yannick Noah (+102, 2268)
2164 Eliot Teltscher (+36, 2200)

So these are the closest comps to Sinner according to peak Elo through age 22. Of the eleven players, six of them won Slams - or slightly more than half - but only two won multiple Slams. Guillermo Vilas is by far the best player, with 4 Slams and a peak Elo of 2431, higher than many notable players who were considered greater (Sampras, Becker, Agassi, Edberg, and Wilander). In other words, of the most similar players by age 22 peak Elo, Vilas represents the upper end of Sinner's potential.

Of the 11 players, the range of improvement was from +36 (Teltscher) to +263 (Vilas), with a median of +54 and an average of +84. Using those two as likely ranges for Sinner's upside would put him peaking at 2230 to 2260, which would put him somewhere in the #50-65ish range. Using the full range would give Sinner a broader range of 2212 to 2439...which is the difference between a perennial top 10 guy to an all-time great. So there's still a wide range of possible outcomes for Sinner, though the mostly likely is in the 2230-2260 range (or, if we want to be more charitable, 2250-2300).

Addendu: An Interesting Find
I charted every player by their age 22 Elo (Y-axis) and range of improvement (X-axis) and came up with this rough chart:

View attachment 8768
Alright, this isn't super accurate as a lot of the grouped players should be more tightly packed then they appear on the chart, but it gives a general picture. This chart illustrates an interesting finding: Notice the trend. Most players are grouped in a diagonal trend, starting with Del Potro, Courier etc in the "non-improvement" category, then angling downward all the way to Nastase and Dibbs - the players that improved the most from age 22 to peak (both broke in very late).

The players that don't fit in the general trend pattern are all greats. Or to put it another way, the greats are all outliers -- especially Djokovic and Federer, who among the ATGs improved the most from age 22 to their respective peaks (Roger at age 25, Novak at age 28).

The players in that first column had their highest Elo before turning 22, with Becker the only true great who didn't improve at all. Other than Becker, it is mostly a list of rather infamous disappointments: Del Potro due to an injury-plagued career; Courier for that high early peak and then quick decline; Hewitt and Roddick for early peaks and then more gradual declines as Federer took over the tour; Ivanisevic had the late Slam, but was at his best early on; and Kent Carlsson due to a recurrent knee injury.

Anyhow, what that diagonal trend tells me is this: Most elite players peak in the 2200-2350 range, regardless of how early they start or how quickly they develop, except for a few outliers. Meaning, the diagonal trend shows us that regardless of where they are at by their 22nd birthday, most of the top 73 players by peak Elo trend along a similar line, and within a similar range. To some degree this isn't surprising: Of the 2200 Elo players, most of them peaked below 2350. But it also illustrates just how much some players are outliers, relative to the pack.

The outliers we call "all-time greats." Meaning, there is something that separates the ATGs from everyone else, and it isn't immediately apparent; sometimes it is, but often it takes a bit for them to really separate. In other words, some of it is how good they are at an early age, but some of it is also how they continue to develop after an early age. How they continue to improve their game.

Novak and Roger stand out in that regard. If they followed a more typical ATG curve, they would have maxed out more in the 2350-2400 Elo range. But both surpassed escape velocity into the stratosphere, sometime in their early-to-mid 20s.

As far as Sinner is concerned, he's most similar to the players in the second and third columns, who improved by up to about 100 Elo points, so chances are he ends up with a career similar to those names. Alcaraz, on the other hand, is almost certainly destined for greatness - his pre-22 highest Elo is already better than Sampras, Agassi, Djokovic and Federer, and he's still got almost two years until he turns 22. While he could end up being another Becker and peak sometime in the next year or so, at this point, the sky's the limit and he has a good chance to surpass the rarified 2500 threshold.
Great stats El Dude.

I dont know how this plays with ELO but Sinner is very hard to gauge for me at age 22 because outside of Alcaraz, he hasnt really notched big wins over the other top guys recently and this year his Slams results were very mixed.

Yes, he won his first Masters, and not his fault, but the draw really did open up in front of him. I do acknowledge that its to his credit he took advantage of that opening.

Ditto his first SF at a Slam in Wimbledon. However the caveat there is that after in 2022 W taking Djokovic to five sets in the QTRS ( after first upseting Alcaraz in the 4th) in 2023 he meekly went down to Novak in straights. On balance I would say his form was better at W in 2022.

In 2022 he made 3 Slam QF’s ( AO, W, USO) again an impressive win over Alcaraz in W, and a MP away from beating him at the USO in the QTRS.

This year he reached the W SF’s but in the other 3 slams at best he reached the 4th round. Again I would say his USO competitive form in 2022 was better then 2023. So at the very top level at Slams he *maybe* regressed slightly.

Players get stronger and acquire more endurance as they mature in their early 20’s , and Sinner definitely has more pop now. Again physically most improve ( serve gets more muscle, etc) Yet with the overall Slam results of Sinner looms the question how much mentally does a player improve. ( The question will also emerge soon with the 2 years younger Little Holger)

By age 22 the record against other top players is also significant because by then most everybody has the “book” on everyone else.

So going forward for me with Sinner it will be interesting to watch if he improves at a significantly faster pace now at age 22, especially mentally to the championship level.
 
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El Dude

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Great stats El Dude.

I dont know how this plays with ELO but Sinner is very hard to gauge for me at age 22 because outside of Alcaraz, he hasnt really notched big wins over the other top guys recently and this year his Slams results were very mixed.

Yes, he won his first Masters, and not his fault, but the draw really did open up in front of him. I do acknowledge that its to his credit he took advantage of that opening.

Ditto his first SF at a Slam in Wimbledon. However the caveat there is that after in 2022 W taking Djokovic to five sets in the QTRS ( after first upseting Alcaraz in the 4th) in 2023 he meekly went down to Novak in straights. On balance I would say his form was better at W in 2022.

In 2022 he made 3 Slam QF’s ( AO, W, USO) again an impressive win over Alcaraz in W, and a MP away from beating him at the USO in the QTRS.

This year he reached the W SF’s but in the other 3 slams at best he reached the 4th round. Again I would say his USO competitive form in 2022 was better then 2023. So at the very top level at Slams he *maybe* regressed slightly.

Players get stronger and acquire more endurance as they mature in their early 20’s , and Sinner definitely has more pop now. Again physically most improve ( serve gets more muscle, etc) Yet with the overall Slam results of Sinner looms the question how much mentally does a player improve. ( The question will also emerge soon with the 2 years younger Little Holger)

By age 22 the record against other top players is also significant because by then most everybody has the “book” on everyone else.

So going forward for me with Sinner it will be interesting to watch if he improves at a significantly faster pace now at age 22, especially mentally to the championship level.
His overall performance has gotten better, especially at Masters. Even if one doesn't care much about Masters or considers them glorified warm-ups (which I disagree with, especially the last couple decades), they still generally and eventually translate to better results at Slams. So I would expect Sinner to do better at Slams next year, whether or not he wins one. He'd be on my short list for "probable Slam finalist" in 2024.

As far as growth and performance are concerned, I tend to focus on two things: One, Elo, which I've already talked about in this thread. Two, and maybe more so, what I call "Premier Event Points," which is similar to the tournament points of GOAT Points, but gives a bit more weight to Slams.

If you look at Sinner from 2019 to 2023, his PEPs are 0, 2, 8, 4, 14. So after backsliding in 2022 a bit, he jumped forward this year, with his best results overall. Generally a 10 PEP is a good year for a second tier player...for comparison's sake, Andrey Rublev has had four years in a row in the 10-12 range; Tomas Berdych's four best years were in the 10-13 range; Tsonga had just two. Or to put it another way, Sinner's 2023 was slightly better than any season by Tsonga, Berdych and Rublev, in terms of overall play and "depth," especially at bigger tournaments.

But he still hasn't broken through to elite level (roughly 20 PEP), and certainly not great (30) or historic (40+).

For further comparison, Daniil Medvedev had 31 PEP in 2021, his best year; this year and in 2019 he reached 20 PEP, and has been above 10 every year since 2019. Alex Zverev's four best years were 28 (2021), 19, 14, and 13. Carlos Alcaraz was at 25 last year, and is currently at 33 this year (if he reaches the final, he's up to 35; if he wins, up to 40...which has only been done by 15 players in the Open Era, and no one outside the Big Four since Pete Sampras...even Agassi's best was 39... meaning, if Alcaraz wins the USO, his season will be better than any by Andre Agassi, by my accounting).

So he's got a long way to go to become elite. Right now he's looking like a "second tier" type - someone who tends to hang out in the #5-10 range, get into the second week of at least a Slam or two each year, and win the occasional Masters. I suspect he's got more room to grow, but how much remains to be determined. If I were a betting man, I'd guess he ends up somewhat similar to Alex Zverev and a bit below Medvedev: maybe a peak Elo around 2250-2300, a handful of big titles, maybe a Slam or two. But who knows, he could be better than that....or end up dancing about with Rublev and Ruud in the second tier for years to come.
 
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PhiEaglesfan712

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This is why the next year is going to be important for Jannik Sinner. Time waits for no one. If he hasn't broken through by Wimbledon, then it's likely that youngsters like Ben Shelton and Holger Rune will pass Sinner and get there first.
 

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Tennis went through a phase during the Big 3 where we thought that players were going to start peaking in their late twenties. But there was no real reason to think that a youngster couldn’t bust through and win big consistently. Now we’re back to where we always used to be, looking at kids and expecting big things from them.

I think you can tell from looking at some players that they’re not going to win big. They don’t have that enlarged, heightened game, if you know what I mean, that showed that they’re capable of furiously digging deep within themselves and turning a losing position into a one where they’ve regained control. There’s players who just can’t accept defeat, and we tend to see this early. It was mentioned that Danii made a huge epic existential charge in the second set on Sunday, but not really. He saved face somewhat, without impeding his opponents march. He accepted his fate without complaint.

Carlos has that fire, Ruud doesn’t. That’s a straightforward barometre. Going through the spectrum of colours from Red (Carlos) to Vanilla (Ruud) I have hopes for Sinner and Rune, with a couple of caveats. I’m not sure Sinner will be consistent enough to challenge everywhere, and with Holger I like his spite and passion but I’m not sure yet that he has the levels of ambition he’ll need to carry him to the top.

Time will tell!