Crime

[Horsa]

I thought it was a penal colony in the 1600s too.

Shorter than you think. From 1788 (first fleet) till the start of 20century precisely (separation from brits), so just 112years.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

I thought it was a penal colony in the 1600s too.

Wrong. Since about 50Ky ago, until 1770, including 1600s, it was inhabited by aborigines only. Aborigines did not know the concept of a "country" or a "colony" needless to say "penal colony" until they were invaded by Europeans. The sailors who visited OZ from early 1600s and even made contact with Aborigines few times, did not stay there, nor made any teritorial claims. James Cook made first territorial claim (but did not establish the colony yet) in 1770, which in today's term should be described as an invasion of the land de facto owned by Aborigines.

 

[Horsa]

Wrong. Since about 50Ky ago, until 1770, including 1600s, it was inhabited by aborigines only. Aborigines did not know the concept of a "country" or a "colony" needless to say "penal colony" until they were invaded by Europeans. The sailors who visited OZ from early 1600s and even made contact with Aborigines few times, did not stay there, nor made any teritorial claims. James Cook made first territorial claim (but did not establish the colony yet) in 1770, which in today's term should be described as an invasion of the land de facto owned by Aborigines.

I knew about Captain Cook. I've even been to the Captain Cook museum in Whitby but forgot the dates & know that at 1 time transportation was a main form of punishment especially for minor crimes but not minor enough for the treadmill or ones committed by pregnant women & that Australia was a well-known penal colony. I knew transportation was a form of punishment in the 1600s so going on the information I've just stated I put 2 & 2 together. I also knew that the Aborigines still had primitive beliefs & ways of doing things.

 

[Horsa]

Someone 2 bus rides away from me has been beaten up for her political beliefs. I think that's absolutely disgusting as everyone should have the right to not only have their own thoughts, opinions & beliefs but to air them as long as they respect other people's right to do the same & that any extreme thoughts, opinions & beliefs aren't acted on.

Some people say that money, religion & land are the cause of all wars but I'd say beliefs are & the intolerance of people having different beliefs. Let me explain. Everyone knows religion is about beliefs so that cuts things short a bit as religious wars are caused by people who follow 1 set of beliefs disagreeing with people who have a different set of beliefs & fighting over it. What I mean when I say beliefs & the intolerance of people having different beliefs when it comes to money & land being the cause of wars is that 1 side who own the money or land believe that it belongs to them which it does while the other side who they're fighting with believe that it should be theirs so they argue & fight & lots of innocent people die in the process.

 

[isabelle]

We might have a little conflict of opinions here because I am an avid cyclist. I ditched my car for good reasons that go beyond the topic of this thread. I don;t want to return to driving, even hough I often experience abuse from inconsidered drivers. I'm not trying to argue with you what group of road users are "better" or "safer". We clearly have different experiences. But I can say that you find good and careful (majority) as well as "frightening" people in both groups.

no problem if your behaviour's friendly with others, great to read that some cyclists are respectful

 

[Chris Koziarz]

Someone 2 bus rides away from me has been beaten up for her political beliefs. I think that's absolutely disgusting as everyone should have the right to not only have their own thoughts, opinions & beliefs but to air them as long as they respect other people's right to do the same & that any extreme thoughts, opinions & beliefs aren't acted on.

Some people say that money, religion & land are the cause of all wars but I'd say beliefs are & the intolerance of people having different beliefs. Let me explain. Everyone knows religion is about beliefs so that cuts things short a bit as religious wars are caused by people who follow 1 set of beliefs disagreeing with people who have a different set of beliefs & fighting over it. What I mean when I say beliefs & the intolerance of people having different beliefs when it comes to money & land being the cause of wars is that 1 side who own the money or land believe that it belongs to them which it does while the other side who they're fighting with believe that it should be theirs so they argue & fight & lots of innocent people die in the process.

War is a sanctioned form of violent crime. It is sanctioned because it is usually inter-tribal, with different tribes having conflicting interests, and sometimes very different, even conflicting laws. Even if laws are not conflicting (e.g. both tribes condemn killing) their laws are usually applicable on their own territory only. So, soldiers invading enemy's territory feel not threatened by any justice system if they maintain connections with their own system standing behind their backs (war supplies) but separate themselves from the enemy's system behind war front. So they can do whatever is not punishable by their own system outside the system jurisdiction: murder of enemy soldiers and civilians, rape, up to a massive racial extermination.
Let's consider an example: how many law systems speculate the prosecution and bringing to the court the act of murder committed by thier citizens on a foreign international soil against indigenous person? Probably not many. The policing organizations of different countries may cooperate to extradite the murderer in some cases but usually the country of origin does not want to "interfere into the internal affairs" of the country where the murder takes place, and the murderer is trialed according to the local law only. If anything, the country of origin is interested in the most lenient option of the local law be applied. It's very similar sentiment to that of treating their own soldiers at war as not criminals but "heroes".
I think you identified properly that "money, religion & land" (more broadly a desire to take away enemy's property and exercise the dominance over enemy) are the causes of war. Religious wars are a form fight for dominance. Missionaries go together with soldiers to "teach pagans the Christian faith" to exercise their spiritual dominance. Process of taking slaves by the warirors is essentially the same, only a bit more brutal.
Your definition of "beliefs" as causes of wars also make sense and probably are present in the invader's minds most of the time. But by themselves, beliefs are not sufficient condition to warrant the war. The desire to take away the property & dominate must be at the core of motivation.

 

[Horsa]

War is a sanctioned form of violent crime. It is sanctioned because it is usually inter-tribal, with different tribes having conflicting interests, and sometimes very different, even conflicting laws. Even if laws are not conflicting (e.g. both tribes condemn killing) their laws are usually applicable on their own territory only. So, soldiers invading enemy's territory feel not threatened by any justice system if they maintain connections with their own system standing behind their backs (war supplies) but separate themselves from the enemy's system behind war front. So they can do whatever is not punishable by their own system outside the system jurisdiction: murder of enemy soldiers and civilians, rape, up to a massive racial extermination.
Let's consider an example: how many law systems speculate the prosecution and bringing to the court the act of murder committed by thier citizens on a foreign international soil against indigenous person? Probably not many. The policing organizations of different countries may cooperate to extradite the murderer in some cases but usually the country of origin does not want to "interfere into the internal affairs" of the country where the murder takes place, and the murderer is trialed according to the local law only. If anything, the country of origin is interested in the most lenient option of the local law be applied. It's very similar sentiment to that of treating their own soldiers at war as not criminals but "heroes".
I think you identified properly that "money, religion & land" (more broadly a desire to take away enemy's property and exercise the dominance over enemy) are the causes of war. Religious wars are a form fight for dominance. Missionaries go together with soldiers to "teach pagans the Christian faith" to exercise their spiritual dominance. Process of taking slaves by the warirors is essentially the same, only a bit more brutal.
Your definition of "beliefs" as causes of wars also make sense and probably are present in the invader's minds most of the time. But by themselves, beliefs are not sufficient condition to warrant the war. The desire to take away the property & dominate must be at the core of motivation.

I agree with most of what you wrote here but disagree that beliefs aren't what cause the wars because if people didn't have the beliefs that the land or money should belong to them they wouldn't start the wars in the 1st place but I think it's deeper than that & although I put things simply I think that what I said was much deeper than it seemed. Let me explain.

How do we know what's going on in the world around us & make sense of the world around us? In fact, how do we know anything at all? We know & make sense of the world around us & what's going on in the world around us because of what is going on inside our heads & that's how we know anything at all. I guess I could ask the question of what exactly is knowledge & go into detail but it would take too long & I need eye drops every 2 hours at the moment. We also learn a lot about the world around us by what is said around us & what we read. Language plays a big part of this as does the culture & society that we're brought up in. A lot of things in this world aren't natural but social constructions. Although we have choices & can manipulate the data that is available to us to form our own views & make the right decisions for ourselves a lot of what we know, think & believe isn't actually natural & unique but socially constructed. Religions as a whole were socially constructed & they are belief systems therefore wars caused by people having different beliefs are wars caused by people believing different things though I think sometimes religion is used as an excuse. Going onto money, we haven't always had money, we wouldn't need it if people could share things equally but what exactly is money & what did we do before money was invented? Money is just a means of exchange for the goods & services we require in order to live especially in the capitalist world we're living in. Before money was invented we used to barter goods & services. I guess you could say it was greed for more money that caused many wars but if people didn't know about money they wouldn't have these beliefs that someone else's money should belong to them so the other people wouldn't need to defend their money. The same goes for land except a good example to illustrate my point would be the Native Americans. The Native Americans were nomadic people who followed the buffalo who gave them everything they needed. They hunted the buffalo but only killed as many buffalo as they had to for their needs & they used every part of the buffalo except the heart which they buried believing that if they were good when alive when dead they'd go to the happy hunting ground in the sky & that by burying the hearts of the buffalo they would ensure that there were buffalo in the happy hunting ground in the sky. The Native Americans didn't believe that land should be owned but that it belonged to everyone. They lived in harmony with the mountain men (people like Davy Crocket & Jim Bridger who showed people around the mountains for a living) until cattle ranchers & cowboys arrived on the scene & to some extent homesteaders who although they were peaceful built their homes on land which went against the Native Americans belief that no one owned the land. Later on, after lots of wars loads of Native Americans were forced to live on reservations which changed their way of life because they could no longer live nomadic lives. If people didn't know about land & have opinions on land ownership they wouldn't have any beliefs about land ownership there would be no wars about land therefore beliefs about land have caused a lot of wars too.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

Very interesting point Horsa. We could discuss it further but no me time ATM, & I need to think about it more so will add my bit later.

 

[Horsa]

Very interesting point Horsa. We could discuss it further but no me time ATM, & I need to think about it more so will add my bit later.

Thank you very much, Chris. I could also discuss this further but I've got to do less with my eyes at the moment until I get my new spectacles on 16/10 & I've got to have eye drops every 2 hours so stop what I'm doing. It's driving me crazy not being able to read & type as often. I'm bored to tears or would be if my eyes weren't dry. Lol.

 

[Horsa]

I think our justice system is disgusting. In last weeks paper I read that someone sexually abused a 3 yr. old & only got 9 yrs. imprisonment. Today a man broke into the house of an ill woman, took nothing & only got 2 yrs. It's disgraceful.

 

[Horsa]

I'm very sorry but I'm going to rant properly here including using language ladies shouldn't use.

Near where I live 2 ducks have been catapulted to death. I hope the fucking cruel, sick, bitter & twisted bastards get caught & brought to justice.

Also near where I live someone threatened to kill a shopkeeper with a knife & got 8 months. Is that all? They deserve more.

 

[tented]

I'm very sorry but I'm going to rant properly here including using language ladies shouldn't use.

No need to apologize, and ladies can use whatever language they want.

Near where I live 2 ducks have been catapulted to death. I hope the fucking cruel, sick, bitter & twisted bastards get caught & brought to justice.

This disgusting. I hope they get caught, too. Let us know what happens.

Also near where I live someone threatened to kill a shopkeeper with a knife & got 8 months. Is that all? They deserve more.

Do you know if the person is mentally ill, and whether or not that factored into it? If not, that does seem mild for threatening murder.

 

[Horsa]

No need to apologize, and ladies can use whatever language they want.



This disgusting. I hope they get caught, too. Let us know what happens.



Do you know if the person is mentally ill, and whether or not that factored into it? If not, that does seem mild for threatening murder.

Thank you very much. I only really use foul language when I think it's absolutely necessary, normally when reading or hearing about child or animal cruelty. The rest of the time I'm euphemistic.

I will do.

He has blamed it on anxiety & depression but from what has been said he knew exactly what he was doing. He said he carried the knife because he was suffering from low mood & felt like using it on himself but it doesn't wash with me. I think he was just saying that as an excuse so he would be let off lightly because you don't threaten to kill someone then say you were carrying a knife because you're suffering from low mood & feel like using a knife on yourself. A lot of people use mental illness as an excuse to get away with things because they know that a lot of people think that people with mental health issues are totally off their heads & dangerous when some people with them are actually very intelligent, no danger to anyone except themselves & have been in difficult circumstances which have made them the way they are. This is what stigmatises people with mental health issues & stops them from going for the help they need. This in turn causes some people to commit suicide. Examples of highly intelligent people with mental health issues are Albert Einstein, Charles Darwin, Charles Dickens, Charlotte Bronte & John Nash. I don't know what Albert Einstein's mental health condition was but Charles Darwin, Charles Dickens & Charlotte Bronte suffered from depression & John Nash was schizophrenic.

 

[Horsa]

I read in the local newspapers that thugs had bludgeoned a pony to death & mutilated him at the other end of our town. I think that's absolutely disgusting. Poor pony! I know what I'd like to do to the cruel, sick, bitter & twisted bastards. I hope they find who did it & that proper justice is served. It makes me sick to the stomach just thinking about it.

 

[tented]

I read in the local newspapers that thugs had bludgeoned a pony to death & mutilated him at the other end of our town. I think that's absolutely disgusting. Poor pony! I know what I'd like to do to the cruel, sick, bitter & twisted bastards. I hope they find who did it & that proper justice is served. It makes me sick to the stomach just thinking about it.

There’s something particularly evil about people who are cruel to animals or children.

 

[Horsa]

There’s something particularly evil about people who are cruel to animals or children.

I agree.