Crime

[Horsa]

I've noticed we've got news & politics threads but not general crime threads & sometimes we need to air how we really feel about crimes which have been committed & not all crimes are international or publicised enough to go in the news thread & some crimes got their own threads but not all crimes are serious enough for this & a lot of people are interested in crime. I used to put them in my poetic vent about the news thread but since it was merged into the general news thread I didn't know whether I was still free to express myself poetically there never mind say what I thought about minor, local crimes so this is for that. I also know that as a society we're both fascinated by crime & afraid of it. In fact there's a study dedicated to crime, criminality & criminals alone. This is criminology. There is a lot of crime fiction written & sold in book shops & lent in libraries as well as true crime books. The amount of programmes about crime on T.V. is very large.

Now I've got no crime stories to share so to start off I've decided to write something different about crime.

What exactly is a crime?

The simplest definition of a crime is that they're acts which in the time & country where they're committed are illegal. The acts that are criminal in 1 country aren't always illegal in others & the definition of crimes change over time. Examples of crimes that change over time are drug use & refusal to pay T.V. licenses as in Victorian times cannabis was easily available over the counter & used for certain ailments & refusal to pay T.V. licenses was definitely not a crime before John Logie Baird invented the T.V.

I could go into detail about who determines the laws in each of these countries but that belongs to the realm of politics as does the question of who chooses the government & law-makers of a country.

Why do people commit crimes?

There are many theories about why people commit crimes & some of these have changed through time. 1 of the oldest theories about why people committed crimes was phrenology which stated that people committed crime because of the bumps on their head & people's heads were felt to see where bumps were which told phrenologists whether they'd committed crimes or not. Thankfully this theory was discredited ages ago as was eugenics which followed it which stated that criminality was passed on through genes so that problem families bred problem children & so on. The Nazis took eugenics that seriously that they sterilised mentally ill people & criminals so they couldn't produce mentally ill people & criminals. Fortunately this theory has been discredited for a long time too as we learnt more about genes. A new theory based on genes has replaced it but this 1 has been proved to be true in some cases by twin studies. Family theories stated that sometimes problem families produce problem children but by using bad parenting skills. These theories though feasible sometimes aren't always plausible because they don't explain how some people born into criminal families don't commit crime & some people who aren't born into criminal families do. People join gangs which commit crimes but not all criminals join gangs. I think rational choice theory is the most plausible theory of why people commit crime but still doesn't explain all crimes. (This states that most people are rational. They have wants & needs & consider all possible ways of getting what they want including criminal ways. If criminal ways of getting what they want don't have a big enough deterrent & are easier ways of getting what they want they get what they want this way). I think the reasons why people commit crime is a mixture of all except the 1st 2 theories I mentioned above & I think there are even more reasons why people commit crimes.

What do you think?

I guess I could also ask whether you think that punishment is enough of a deterrent where you live. I don't think in the U.K. punishment is enough of a deterrent for criminal acts.

 

[Horsa]

I have now come across a few crimes I need to vent about so I will.

1. Cyclists cycling on footpaths then ringing their bells when they come behind pedestrians & just racing past as though the path belongs to them when it's some cycle paths that belong to them though others are to be shared by equestrians &/ pedestrians. They complain that roads aren't safe for them but won't use cycle paths when they're available.
2. Drivers who use their mobile phones while driving.
3. Speeding drivers
4. Cyclists who don't stop at red lights.
5. Drivers who don't stop at red lights.
6. Shoplifters. Most people pay for what they want so why should some people be able to get away with not paying for goods.
7. Armed robbers. They make some people feel unsafe at work, damage business & along with shoplifters makes businesses put prices up for others just so they can stay in business.
8. Animal & child cruelty.
9. Domestic violence
10. Assault. There is no need for violence at all so you could change this to violent crime.

 

[mrzz]

Some categories above I guess are considered "offences", and not "crimes". For a few different reasons, maybe you should differentiate them.

 

[Horsa]

Some categories above I guess are considered "offences", and not "crimes". For a few different reasons, maybe you should differentiate them.

There are a lot of people who consider criminal offences & crimes as the same thing like me. They are all acts that break laws of countries & are enforceable by law obviously they all carry different punishments & different levels of punishment. Some are more serious than others. Ha! You're talking about motoring offences which are policed by traffic cops & can be lethal like murder or manslaughter are & crimes which are just penalised by fines & no criminal record is dished out for. What reasons were you thinking of? Thank you very much for the suggestion though. If I agree with your reasons I might accept your challenge of differentiating them.

 

[Horsa]

When I answered Mrzz on the news thread earlier, I realised I needed to vent on a couple of old crime stories I never got to vent about before.

1. There were a couple of stabbings near me which made me feel scared.
2. When Jo Cox got murdered outside a library in broad daylight I was disgusted & felt unsafe. The reasons for this were that Batley is just a couple of bus rides away from me & it was outside a library in broad daylight where you expect to be safe. I felt especially sorry for the children because no matter how hard it is for adults to accept loss it's even harder for children & the people who have to tell them. How do you tell a child that their Mother isn't coming back.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

You're in very morose mood today, Horsa, especially your remembering Jo Cox. Such terrible is that memory that I even hesitate to talk about it or such, more for your rather than me sake given the proximity of it to you and necessarily greater emotional damage to you rather than me. I don't know what to say to cheer you up, except that such highly damaging crimes occur very rarely and you don't need to feel personally scared, given the very diminutive risk involved. I am Work & Safety Committee member and we often discuss the risk vs. probability for all types of dangers lurking at our workplace. We have a priority matrix which helps us to determine the priority of eventual actions to mitigate the risk. However the risks "bomb threat" or "armed alien" (equivalent of the risks you're talking about above) aren't even in this table because it's a special category of "emergencies" (also including building fire). We are trained to react when emergency happens but we cannot completely mitigate their risk. No matter how hard you try, there is always a residue chance that building catches fire or an armed psychopath enters it with an intention of destroying life. Gov pamphlets will tell you what to do in a very unlikely case of being involved in a violent crime, and these are obvious things: do not provoke the attacker, seek shelter or at least of out view, play dead if nowhere to hide. All compatible with our basic psychosomatic imprints that are activated automatically in case of danger. Rely on those, maybe do not provoke people and try to avoid dark street corners that look unsafe, and nothing beyond. those criminals are not worth your time and worry. Too much worry will do a sizeable damage to your mental health with very high probability: an outcome worse than the risk of being a victim of a violent crime because the latter has an extremely low probability.

 

[Horsa]

I'm the type of person who lets things build up for so long before bursting. I just needed to vent about a few things so I could forget & move on. I felt unsafe at the time but don't now & just get on with life. An old area manager of mine said I was a born worrier but she liked me & taught me to price things up & even asked my Manager to teach me to manage (well deal with the cashing up, banking & paperwork side of management anyway). I'm feeling better now. Thank you very much.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

Regarding the crime categorisation mrzz considers above.
Obviously it depends on the local jurisdiction, and the categories vary. In Australia, we do not distinguish crime "levels". However is US, most states do distinguish crimes into "misdemeanors" (punishable by 1y jail term maximum) and 'felonies" (punishable more but can be e.g. from 6months to 2y). Some states also distinguish "violations" or "infractions" - misdemeanors that attracts only fines and not jail time (e.g. running a red light without any further consequences). The later would be what mrzz calls "offences".
In Australia, as I said there exists no crime categories, so running a red light is still called a "crime". But we obviously categorise the punishment levels: e.g. infringement notices (for most crimes defined in US states as "violations" and minor misdemeanors), loss of the property that was a crime tool, including vehicle impounding, arrest and jail.
BTW: crime is defined as the violation of the applicable law against the government. As such, it is policed and prosecuted by governemnt, i.e.: detection and punishment happens automatically without third party involvement. While so called "infringements" in Australia, are more or less equivalent of "civil lawsuits" in US: i.e. an unlawful act that is not policed nor prosecuted by the government and is typically brought to court by a party seeking damages. Infringements (like civil lawsuits) do not carry jail penalty but can carry large financial penalties. The "infringement notices" issued by minor crimes, are just that: financial penalties, and this fancy name also reflects the fact that the underlying crime was determined not to be punishable by jail. But said determination is always reserved for a case by case.
Intellectual Property and Copyright violations (that I'm familiar with) is by default considered an infringement, i.e. not policed nor prosecuted. But in some serious cases a crime can be established, but a third party (such as Australian Copyright Commission) must brought it to the attention of Fedral Police to investigate, obtain the approval for public prosecution, etc.

 

[isabelle]

I have now come across a few crimes I need to vent about so I will.

1. Cyclists cycling on footpaths then ringing their bells when they come behind pedestrians & just racing past as though the path belongs to them when it's some cycle paths that belong to them though others are to be shared by equestrians &/ pedestrians. They complain that roads aren't safe for them but won't use cycle paths when they're available.
2. Drivers who use their mobile phones while driving.
3. Speeding drivers
4. Cyclists who don't stop at red lights.
5. Drivers who don't stop at red lights.
6. Shoplifters. Most people pay for what they want so why should some people be able to get away with not paying for goods.
7. Armed robbers. They make some people feel unsafe at work, damage business & along with shoplifters makes businesses put prices up for others just so they can stay in business.
8. Animal & child cruelty.
9. Domestic violence
10. Assault. There is no need for violence at all so you could change this to violent crime.

same in Paris, cyclists are awful with pedestrians, drivers are much more careful . I'm more frightened by cyclists than by drivers

 

[Chris Koziarz]

same in Paris, cyclists are awful with pedestrians, drivers are much more careful . I'm more frightened by cyclists than by drivers

We might have a little conflict of opinions here because I am an avid cyclist. I ditched my car for good reasons that go beyond the topic of this thread. I don;t want to return to driving, even hough I often experience abuse from inconsidered drivers. I'm not trying to argue with you what group of road users are "better" or "safer". We clearly have different experiences. But I can say that you find good and careful (majority) as well as "frightening" people in both groups.

 

[Horsa]

same in Paris, cyclists are awful with pedestrians, drivers are much more careful . I'm more frightened by cyclists than by drivers

It's not all cyclists though. Some cyclists are very friendly & ride safely & don't threaten pedestrians. Some drivers are very careful & safe while some are a hazard to everyone else on the road. I've known some not to give equestrians enough room or to scare the horses so they bolt unless they're very calm & well-trained. There is good & bad in all road users.

 

[Horsa]

I also got scared when people were stabbed in daylight in Leeds as it's only a bus-ride away from me & a teacher was stabbed to death at school.

Anyway, enough venting about past crimes. Onto modern ones.

 

[Horsa]

A 6 month old cat recently was hung over a motor-way 2 bus-rides away from me. Poor cat! I know what I'd like to do to the thugs who did that.

 

[Horsa]

Last week a motor-cycle was stolen outside a crematorium a bus-ride away from me while its owner was attending a family funeral. The same motor-bike was later used to get the criminal places where they committed a string of offences including thefts from vehicles, criminal damage & threatening to stab people with screw-drivers.

 

[Horsa]

Regarding the crime categorisation mrzz considers above.
Obviously it depends on the local jurisdiction, and the categories vary. In Australia, we do not distinguish crime "levels". However is US, most states do distinguish crimes into "misdemeanors" (punishable by 1y jail term maximum) and 'felonies" (punishable more but can be e.g. from 6months to 2y). Some states also distinguish "violations" or "infractions" - misdemeanors that attracts only fines and not jail time (e.g. running a red light without any further consequences). The later would be what mrzz calls "offences".
In Australia, as I said there exists no crime categories, so running a red light is still called a "crime". But we obviously categorise the punishment levels: e.g. infringement notices (for most crimes defined in US states as "violations" and minor misdemeanors), loss of the property that was a crime tool, including vehicle impounding, arrest and jail.
BTW: crime is defined as the violation of the applicable law against the government. As such, it is policed and prosecuted by governemnt, i.e.: detection and punishment happens automatically without third party involvement. While so called "infringements" in Australia, are more or less equivalent of "civil lawsuits" in US: i.e. an unlawful act that is not policed nor prosecuted by the government and is typically brought to court by a party seeking damages. Infringements (like civil lawsuits) do not carry jail penalty but can carry large financial penalties. The "infringement notices" issued by minor crimes, are just that: financial penalties, and this fancy name also reflects the fact that the underlying crime was determined not to be punishable by jail. But said determination is always reserved for a case by case.
Intellectual Property and Copyright violations (that I'm familiar with) is by default considered an infringement, i.e. not policed nor prosecuted. But in some serious cases a crime can be established, but a third party (such as Australian Copyright Commission) must brought it to the attention of Fedral Police to investigate, obtain the approval for public prosecution, etc.

We don't categorise crimes like that in the U.K. either.

About the definition of the word crime, there are many different definitions of the word crime & all different ways of phrasing these definitions & I used a short & simplistic definition because I knew my post was going to be long & wanted to explain & try to include everything. I agree that crime is policed & prosecuted by the government when it's known about but disagree that detection & punishment happens automatically without third party involvement because the police like everyone else can't be everywhere at once therefore in order for laws to be enforced someone has to report those crimes whether it's the victims themselves or witnesses or even security companies who've seen offences on C.C.T.V. which means that some crimes are hidden & justice isn't served whether by prison sentence, community service or fines therefore official crime figures aren't necessarily indicative of the amount of crime committed in 1 country. We also have lawsuits & infringements though for which fines are dished out like you stated.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

We don't categorise crimes like that in the U.K. either.

About the definition of the word crime, there are many different definitions of the word crime & all different ways of phrasing these definitions & I used a short & simplistic definition because I knew my post was going to be long & wanted to explain & try to include everything. I agree that crime is policed & prosecuted by the government when it's known about but disagree that detection & punishment happens automatically without third party involvement because the police like everyone else can't be everywhere at once therefore in order for laws to be enforced someone has to report those crimes whether it's the victims themselves or witnesses or even security companies who've seen offences on C.C.T.V. which means that some crimes are hidden & justice isn't served whether by prison sentence, community service or fines therefore official crime figures aren't necessarily indicative of the amount of crime committed in 1 country. We also have lawsuits & infringements though for which fines are dished out like you stated.

Oh, yes. We're in fact in agreement that not all crimes are automatically policed & punished. I was just a little imprecise in my previous post. My post should have stated: "crimes are automatically policed & punished, when known and when police have time to pursue & if needed bring the case to court". Thanks for that clarification.
From what you're saying it looks as OZ & UK are very similar countries in this respect.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

A 6 month old cat recently was hung over a motor-way 2 bus-rides away from me. Poor cat! I know what I'd like to do to the thugs who did that.

The applicable law I found stipulates up to 51 weeks jail time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Welfare_Act_2006#Post-Conviction_Powers
Perhaps it's too lenient for such case. Can there be any other law warranting additional charges that could result in adequate punishment IYO?

 

[Horsa]

The applicable law I found stipulates up to 51 weeks jail time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Welfare_Act_2006#Post-Conviction_Powers
Perhaps it's too lenient for such case. Can there be any other law warranting additional charges that could result in adequate punishment IYO?

I think it's too lenient too. The thugs did it to someone's pet so I think they should be forced to apologise to the owner & pay damages too.

 

[Horsa]

Oh, yes. We're in fact in agreement that not all crimes are automatically policed & punished. I was just a little imprecise in my previous post. My post should have stated: "crimes are automatically policed & punished, when known and when police have time to pursue & if needed bring the case to court". Thanks for that clarification.
From what you're saying it looks as OZ & UK are very similar countries in this respect.

You're welcome.

That does appear to be the case. Don't forget there aren't many aborigines left who did things the way things had been done for ages & Australia was at 1 time a penal colony (for at least 2 centuries. I think) so some British ways would have been adopted.

 

[Chris Koziarz]

Australia was at 1 time a penal colony (for at least 2 centuries. I think)

Shorter than you think. From 1788 (first fleet) till the start of 20century precisely (separation from brits), so just 112years.