US Politics Thread

[Moxie]

If you want to talk about paranoia, let's talk about what Trump seems to be doing to prepare for fiddling the midterms.

Why did Tulsi Gabbard go to GA, personally, to investigate 2020 election fraud? Trump is all over the place on the question:

Trump shifts explanation of why DNI Gabbard was at FBI Georgia election office raid

President Donald Trump now says Attorney General Pam Bondi "insisted" Tulsi Gabbard be present during an FBI search of a Georgia election center last week.

abcnews.go.com

Why is ICE such a heavy presence in Minneapolis, when only about 2% of the whole state population is immigrant? (BTW, there are some 3000 ICE officers to 600 police in the Minneapolis force.) Why such an exaggerated show of force? To provoke unrest? To create an excuse to invoke the insurrection act? An excuse to invalidate elections? He is creating the chaos that he'll use to invoke draconian measures, which could mean not holding elections.

If they wanted to send a heavy ICE presence, why not to Florida or Texas, where the proportion of immigrants in the population is 23.1% and 18.4% respectively. Oh, but right, Florida and Texas vote Republican, so no reason to harass and execute those people.

Trump has tipped seriously over into authoritarianism. We have valid concerns here that he won't even let us hold elections in November. He's prepared to lose them, so he's preparing for invalidating them, at the vary least.

 

[Moxie]

Haven't you figured out politics and conspiracy go hand in hand yet? In case you hadn't noticed - the Epstein Files are the main mainstream news at the moment - and are invariably tied in with politics (not just US politics by the way - international politics)

Politics and conspiracy go hand-in-hand if you want them to. But so do science and conspiracy, if you want them to. Personally, I think they are separate. I can't do the tinfoil hat on everything.

I do know that Epstein is mainstream news, but I think that it's a distraction, and I hate to say that the Democrats in Congress have fallen for it, because they think it might reflect poorly on Trump. As if that would matter. Just to recap, Jeffrey Epstein is a sex-offender and a paedophile. Yes, it is a question of where he got all of his influence and money from, and there are powerful men that are scooped up in the scandal. But it's still a sex scandal. There is big money and influence involved, which is the very outside part of important. it's not at all what anyone is focusing on, though it should be. So, generally, it's more just creepy and sensational. And no matter how close Trump was to the whole thing, he has proven that his sexual proclivities, his infidelities and his abuses of women don't matter to his fan base.

If you think it matters more than that, tell me how.

 

[britbox]

Politics and conspiracy go hand-in-hand if you want them to. But so do science and conspiracy, if you want them to. Personally, I think they are separate. I can't do the tinfoil hat on everything.

I do know that Epstein is mainstream news, but I think that it's a distraction, and I hate to say that the Democrats in Congress have fallen for it, because they think it might reflect poorly on Trump. As if that would matter. Just to recap, Jeffrey Epstein is a sex-offender and a paedophile. Yes, it is a question of where he got all of his influence and money from, and there are powerful men that are scooped up in the scandal. But it's still a sex scandal. There is big money and influence involved, which is the very outside part of important. it's not at all what anyone is focusing on, though it should be. So, generally, it's more just creepy and sensational. And no matter how close Trump was to the whole thing, he has proven that his sexual proclivities, his infidelities and his abuses of women don't matter to his fan base.

If you think it matters more than that, tell me how.

I do think it matters a lot more than that. Especially if people are being "compromised". Epstein had thousands of tapes. Ghislaine's father was Mossad and there are politicians around the world involved. So it goes beyond a "Sex scandal" - way beyond. And way beyond Trump - which seems to be your only measurement of "bad".

Politics and conspiracy go hand-in-hand if you want them to? So, you're implying we should just go along with blind ignorance and wave our flags for our favourite superhero who is going to put the world to rights? Nothing else to see here?

 

[Moxie]

"Pushing your own agenda"? - now what would that be Moxie?

Well, for one, that politics and conspiracy go hand-in-hand. For another, all of those bullet points above which really aren't how we've been discussing them, so clearly, you have an agenda. Otherwise, where did you get that from? Not from conversations here.

I don't take your position particularly seriously because you appear to be a flag waver for what I perceive to be a compromised deeply corrupt system.

Interesting. I don't deserve to have my opinions taken seriously because I care about my positions. I speak passionately from deep beliefs, and, so, you say, I "wave my flag." My flag of my convictions? Or my partisanship? Yeah, why not? Is it that I don't wave a flag that you agree with? So, you have an opinion about deep corruption in the system, therefore, anyone who doesn't see it your way speaks from an invalid place? My position can't be taken seriously?

But I will reword the original statement - from "People don't give a f@@k" to "People only selectively give a f@@k when it suits them".

I will reiterate: are you talking about this thread, on this forum? If you are, that is deeply, deeply cynical. I rather hate you for dismissing absolutely everything we've argued and debated and cared about here for, I'll say it again, 507 pages. Because then, you're telling us all to bugger off, and there's no point. Oh, unless maybe we believe what YOU think.

It will make me sad to leave this thread and not have these people to talk politics with, but I will if you're going to take it over with that attitude.

 

[britbox]

Nah, keep talking - I'll vacate it. You made it clear in the past you didn't like me on this thread before because I wasn't American... at least not an American who wouldn't believe the same fairy tales from their Government.

 

[Moxie]

I do think it matters a lot more than that. Especially if people are being "compromised". Epstein had thousands of tapes. Ghislaine's father was Mossad and there are politicians around the world involved. So it goes beyond a "Sex scandal" - way beyond. And way beyond Trump - which seems to be your only measurement of "bad".

Politics and conspiracy go hand-in-hand if you want them to? So, you're implying we should just go along with blind ignorance and wave our flags for our favourite superhero who is going to put the world to rights? Nothing else to see here?

I didn't say Trump was the measure of "bad" in this. I don't even think he's the main player. Try to read what I write without your blinkers about what you think I think.

Please don't give me that straw man business about if I don't believe your conspiracies then I live in blind ignorance. It's a non-debatable position, if you put it like that, and we're speaking in broad generalities, so try not to be unfair. We can discuss your conspiracies one by one, as they come up, but don't tell me, point blank ,that it's all conspiracies, and they're all right, and I'm just ignorant for ignoring them. I haven't even said that the Epstein files don't go deeper. In fact, I said they're just investigating the wrong part, which I firmly believe. It's not the sex. it's the money and the influence that are the potential political scandals, IMO. I have yet to hear one politician, Republican or Democrat, make that case seriously. Democrats have gotten suck into the Republican obsession with pedophiles, which is a waste of time, in terms of the attentions of Congress.

 

[Moxie]

Nah, keep talking - I'll vacate it. You made it clear in the past you didn't like me on this thread before because I wasn't American... at least not an American who wouldn't believe the same fairy tales from their Government.

Oh, don't pout, it's unbecoming. Say what you mean, and don't blame it on me for coming after you. I'm the only American on this thread, most of the time. @Federberg and @Kieran and @mrzz don't stomp off in a huff. I'm not saying you have no right to speak because you're not from the US, I'm saying that you are insulting all of us who participate on this thread, and we're an international bunch.

 

[britbox]

Oh, don't pout, it's unbecoming. Say what you mean, and don't blame it on me for coming after you. I'm the only American on this thread, most of the time. @Federberg and @Kieran and @mrzz don't stomp off in a huff. I'm not saying you have no right to speak because you're not from the US, I'm saying that you are insulting all of us who participate on this thread, and we're an international bunch.

Erm, hang on - you said you were going to leave the thread... I don't want you to leave it on my account.

Anyway, I like you on many levels but regarding politics I think you're very naive. My position is that Politics is wrestling in suits... it's not really real - at least not how you interpret it. It's drama put on for our show. Many, many people who have been in there at what we call the "highest levels" in different countries have said the same - even Presidents and Prime Ministers.

 

[Moxie]

Erm, hang on - you said you were going to leave the thread... I don't want you to leave it on my account.

No, I just said I would if you spoil it with your sense that only you know what politics are about, and the rest of us are talking naive nonsense, and we don't really give a f#ck.

Anyway, I like you on many levels but regarding politics I think you're very naive. My position is that Politics is wrestling in suits... it's not really real - at least not how you interpret it. It's drama put on for our show. Many, many people who have been in there at what we call the "highest levels" in different countries have said the same - even Presidents and Prime Ministers.

Well, that's an opinion. But if your starting point is that everyone else on this thread who doesn't believe that is naive, then I suggest this might be a lonely conversation for you. Or, a bunch of people who believe that might join you in that. Fine if that's what you want. Or, you might join the conversation as part of it, and not the boss of it, and see if you might find there's more idealism in you, after all.

Is this going to be a conversation, or are you telling us all to F-off? Or maybe just me?

 

[britbox]

No, I just said I would if you spoil it with your sense that only you know what politics are about, and the rest of us are talking naive nonsense, and we don't really give a f#ck.

Well, that's an opinion. But if your starting point is that everyone else on this thread who doesn't believe that is naive, then I suggest this might be a lonely conversation for you. Or, a bunch of people who believe that might join you in that. Fine if that's what you want. Or, you might join the conversation as part of it, and not the boss of it, and see if you might find there's more idealism in you, after all.

Is this going to be a conversation, or are you telling us all to F-off? Or maybe just me?

OK, I'll give you an example... You started talking about Venezuela, Trump, War Crimes and International Law.... like this was some new unique novel piece of behaviour. This kind of thing has been going on for decades. Invading countries, overthrowing governments... Did you care in 2014 when the Ukraine Government was overthrown? We were all on these boards then... What about the US troops in Afghanistan, Syria and various other places... Was international law broken when weddings got droned in Pakistan?

So, yes there is absolute selective outrage... and selective idealism.

and there are times when the masses are told to focus on things.... i.e. Epstein Island Now. Why not earlier? I'm glad you at least have an inkling that there may be wider reasons. Look at things too soon and/or smell a rat - oh, that's just a conspiracy theory... until it isn't.

 

[Moxie]

Many, many people who have been in there at what we call the "highest levels" in different countries have said the same - even Presidents and Prime Ministers.

Direct quotes, then, please, and more than a few. Because you said there are many, many of them. To say that, what, this is puppet theatre put on for our distraction?

 

[Moxie]

OK, I'll give you an example... You started talking about Venezuela, Trump, War Crimes and International Law.... like this was some new unique novel piece of behaviour. This kind of thing has been going on for decades. Invading countries, overthrowing governments... Did you care in 2014 when the Ukraine Government was overthrown? We were all on these boards then... What about the US troops in Afghanistan, Syria and various other places... Was international law broken when weddings got droned in Pakistan?

So, yes there is absolute selective outrage... and selective idealism.

and there are times when the masses are told to focus on things.... i.e. Epstein Island Now. Why not earlier? I'm glad you at least have an inkling that there may be wider reasons. Look at things too soon and/or smell a rat - oh, that's just a conspiracy theory... until it isn't.

You are SO condescending! Oh, you're so glad I have an "inkling." Thanks for crediting me with one brain cell. Is this really the way to jump into a conversation you haven't been following? By sniping at people for what they failed to say?

We've talked about much of what you cite above. (I'm pretty sure we missed weddings getting droned in Pakistan, but this is the US politics thread. And maybe that was is for conspiracy specialists.) You just missed a lot of the conversations. Don't waltz in and tell us that we're "selective." In some ways we are...we don't discuss everything in depth around here. We have other people we talk to about politics in our lives, clearly. I would call this mostly a superficial dip into various topics. Sometimes someone just drops in an idea or a video, and sometimes it starts a conversation, sometimes it doesn't. Occasionally, we latch onto something we'll debate for a while. Forgive me if we're not all doing our dissertation on political science on this particular TENNIS forum. You're not complaining that we took the wrong positions. You're complaining about what we didn't say. That's not fair. There's plenty we don't say. We don't address everything. Also, you just completely missed plenty of it.

 

[britbox]

You are SO condescending! Oh, you're so glad I have an "inkling." Thanks for crediting me with one brain cell. Is this really the way to jump into a conversation you haven't been following? By sniping at people for what they failed to say?

We've talked about all you cite above. You just missed it. Don't waltz in and tell us that we're "selective." In some ways we are...we don't discuss everything in depth around here. We have other people we talk to about politics in our lives, clearly. I would call this mostly a superficial dip into various topics. Sometimes someone just drops in an idea or a video, and sometimes it starts a conversation, sometimes it doesn't. Occasionally, we latch onto something we'll debate for a while. Forgive me if we're not all doing our dissertation on political science on this particular TENNIS forum. You're not complaining that we took the wrong positions. You're complaining about what we didn't say. That's not fair. There's plenty we don't say. We don't address everything. Also, you just completely missed plenty of it.

You don't need to corral your troops with the "we" and begin tagging people left right and centre. Unless it's the royal "we" of course. Everyone wears long pants and can speak for themselves.

Two of the people you mention liked the post anyway and others like Fiero have already highlighted the same hypocrisy. I'm not complaining about anything... I'm pointing out selective outrage and idealism. And that the same people creating havoc around the world are not going to be the same people who fix it. We did carry on the conversation a little before you jumped in full of outrage...

 

[Moxie]

You don't need to corral your troops with the "we" and begin tagging people left right and centre. Unless it's the royal "we" of course. Everyone wears long pants and can speak for themselves.

Two of the people you mention liked the post anyway and others like Fiero have already highlighted the same hypocrisy. I'm not complaining about anything... I'm pointing out selective outrage and idealism. And that the same people creating havoc around the world are not going to be the same people who fix it. We did carry on the conversation a little before you jumped in full of outrage...

Didn't you tell us all that we were being naive, and didn't believe what we posted? That we don't really give a f%ck? That wasn't just for me. Maybe some didn't notice you were insulting them. LOL.

Anyway, if you want a conversation, I am trying to have one with you on Epstein, except you don't read what I write. I told you "why not earlier." All of the focus on that has always been on the wrong things. I think all of the outrage over it is misplaced, and always has been. When they focus on what could even be important, politically, then I will care. It's not sex trafficking, it's money and influence peddling. If that's how Epstein got so much money, then get to the bottom of that.

 

[britbox]

Direct quotes, then, please, and more than a few. Because you said there are many, many of them. To say that, what, this is puppet theatre put on for our distraction?

Here's your quotes:

"For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence—on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day." - Speech by John F Kennedy

“Cabinet government is largely a fiction. Real power is exercised by informal networks, officials, and systems that most ministers barely understand.”

“The Cabinet system is not fit for purpose. The Prime Minister is not given the information he needs, Cabinet ministers are not given the information they need, and real decisions are taken elsewhere.”

- Dominic Cummings (former Chief Adviser to Boris Johnson)

"I weep for the liberty of my country when I see at this early day of its successful experiment that corruption has been imputed to many members of the House of Representatives, and the rights of the people have been bartered for promises of office." - Andrew Jackson in correspondence to George Washington

"The British System is fundamentally broken, Government Minsters are rubber-stampers for the machine"

"Most of the people who wield vast power have never been elected and are rarely fired"

- Liz Truss, Former British Prime Minister

“The United States is no longer a democracy. It is an oligarchy with unlimited political bribery.”

- Jimmy Carter, Former U.S. President in July 2015.

“In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex.” - Dwight D. Eisenhower, Former US President

“The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson.”

(Letter to Colonel Edward House, 1933)

“There is a great power in this country, not in the House of Commons, but in the counting-houses of the City.” - Disraeli

“Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody… They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.” - Woodrow Wilson

“There are people in this world who are not accountable to anyone, and they make decisions that affect millions.” - David Cameron, Former British PM

“Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.” - Theodore Roosevelt, Former US President

“The system in Washington is rigged. It’s rigged in favor of those with money, those with power, those with connections.” - Barack Obama

“States are increasingly constrained by forces they do not control.” - Jacques Chirac, Former French PM

 

[britbox]

Didn't you tell us all that we were being naive, and didn't believe what we posted? That we don't really give a f%ck? That wasn't just for me. Maybe some didn't notice you were insulting them. LOL.

Anyway, if you want a conversation, I am trying to have one with you on Epstein, except you don't read what I write. I told you "why not earlier." All of the focus on that has always been on the wrong things. I think all of the outrage over it is misplaced, and always has been. When they focus on what could even be important, politically, then I will care. It's not sex trafficking, it's money and influence peddling. If that's how Epstein got so much money, then get to the bottom of that.

Anyone who believes the politicos are going to fix the problem they are a part of, is naive IMO. The conversation carried on a little about this already before you burst in red-faced with steam coming out of your ears.

Anyway, onto Epstein - I agree that it's about money and influence peddling - largely through compromising people... and it's an element of a much larger conspiracy... and yes, conspiracies do exist. It's why we have all these intelligence agencies.

 

[Moxie]

Here's your quotes:

"For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence—on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day." - Speech by John F Kennedy

“Cabinet government is largely a fiction. Real power is exercised by informal networks, officials, and systems that most ministers barely understand.”

“The Cabinet system is not fit for purpose. The Prime Minister is not given the information he needs, Cabinet ministers are not given the information they need, and real decisions are taken elsewhere.”

- Dominic Cummings (former Chief Adviser to Boris Johnson)

"I weep for the liberty of my country when I see at this early day of its successful experiment that corruption has been imputed to many members of the House of Representatives, and the rights of the people have been bartered for promises of office." - Andrew Jackson in correspondence to George Washington

"The British System is fundamentally broken, Government Minsters are rubber-stampers for the machine"

"Most of the people who wield vast power have never been elected and are rarely fired"

- Liz Truss, Former British Prime Minister

“The United States is no longer a democracy. It is an oligarchy with unlimited political bribery.”

- Jimmy Carter, Former U.S. President in July 2015.

“In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex.” - Dwight D. Eisenhower, Former US President

“The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson.”

(Letter to Colonel Edward House, 1933)

“There is a great power in this country, not in the House of Commons, but in the counting-houses of the City.” - Disraeli

“Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody… They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.” - Woodrow Wilson

“There are people in this world who are not accountable to anyone, and they make decisions that affect millions.” - David Cameron, Former British PM

“Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.” - Theodore Roosevelt, Former US President

“The system in Washington is rigged. It’s rigged in favor of those with money, those with power, those with connections.” - Barack Obama

“States are increasingly constrained by forces they do not control.” - Jacques Chirac, Former French PM

These could all do with some context, but surely you know, based on the speaker, that some of these are clearly rhetorical flourishes, and meant to gird us against darker forces and agents who would erode our democracy, and therefore to warn us against. These are clearly not just a sad resignation, and exposure to some dark truth. Even you know that. Many of them are basically saying that those with money wield too much power. That's a complaint, and a truth. But it's about working against that. But it's not news. It doesn't mean that governmental structures and elected officials mean nothing. (I'm not speaking to every quote, but I definitely know where a lot of the American ones are coming from.) Context is needed for sure, because some of them I know, and it changes the meaning.

 

[Moxie]

Anyone who believes the politicos are going to fix the problem they are a part of, is naive IMO. The conversation carried on a little about this already before you burst in red-faced with steam coming out of your ears.

You've said as much twice now.

Anyway, onto Epstein - I agree that it's about money and influence peddling - largely through compromising people... and it's an element of a much larger conspiracy... and yes, conspiracies do exist. It's why we have all these intelligence agencies.

What is the larger conspiracy, in your opinion? Isn't selling influence already a problem? We have intelligence agencies to know what goes on in the world, not just for "conspiracies," right? Jeepers.

 

[britbox]

You've said as much twice now.

What is the larger conspiracy, in your opinion? Isn't selling influence already a problem? We have intelligence agencies to know what goes on in the world, not just for "conspiracies," right? Jeepers.

I've said as much before - there are visible governments and then other layers above that most people are not aware of. It's not just politics - it's everything - essentially exoteric for the masses and esoteric for the higher ups. I don't believe people with real power leave things to chance - and certainly wouldn't leave things to the mercy of a mass voter class.

I mean, let's take the office of president - you're talking about 4-8 years in situ. Why would anybody really powerful (as opposed to having perceived power) and who is playing the long game, want to be President? They'd be in the cross-hairs and have a limited time in office.

The sensible situation would be to control Presidents rather than be a President. Sure, maintain a bit of theatre for the masses. As they do. I recall after Trump getting elected the first time, people were at it tooth and nail on this thread - but there he was laughing and joking with Hillary Clinton at a Gala dinner in New York.

People who follow these people waving flags like they're supporting a team - are moronic IMO. They don't care a damn about you, sorry. If you want to make a difference then do stuff at grass roots (not championing political parties BTW) - then we don't have the "Why doesn't the government do something?" - it's a horrible victim mentality. No more delegation of thought or action. Maybe you are, and if so - good.

 

[mrzz]

Oh, no! Is this about to become a standard conspiracy theory thread? That would be very sad.

That's exactly what they want.