US Politics Thread

[Kieran]

The first questions I'd be asking...

1) Why is the FBI immediately involved when a local murder wouldn't typically be within their jurisdiction.

It’s a high profile political assassination, I would think this is something the FBI needs to get involved with? It’s not a “local murder.”

 

[Moxie]

It’s a high profile political assassination, I would think this is something the FBI needs to get involved with? It’s not a “local murder.”

It's not at all unusual that the FBI would be involved. It IS unusual that Trump has ordered flags to fly at half-staff, but he's never been one to adhere to precedent and tradition.

 

[Moxie]

I actually agree with @Moxie on this. There's no evidence it's the left. Someone... about a month ago.. on X, actually claimed that Charlie Kirk was concerned that his anti-Israel views might put him in the cross-hairs of Israeli Intelligence. Look... even a broken clock is right twice a day.. so I'm in no way saying that's what happened. But the world is a little bit more complex than left and right. There's even a Russia-Ukraine angle... Kirk was pro- Russia. What I'm trying to say is that Charlie Kirk was right at the centre of many of the fissures that split left and right, but in that, there are many other actors who would be invested in his views/activities. Let's not jump to conclusions...

PS, there are even more insane conspiracy theories out there... like being a useful distraction to ease the pressure on the Epstein scandal. I didn't want to go there, but I'm trying to paint the picture which is definitely not black and white..

I appreciate the first paragraph, but as to the 2nd, well, you've definitely gone there now!

 

[Moxie]

I think Charlie Kirk was definitely pro-Israel, Netanyahu mourned him on X:



As for Russia-Ukraine, I’m not overly familiar with his thoughts there, I imagine he was against US involvement, and he recognised that Obama handed Crimea to Russia, which made this difficult for the US now.

As for jumping to conclusions, @Moxie - it felt to me - was referring to my possibly believing that someone on the left was possibly culpable for the shooting. I actually agree with you that it might be more complex, and such an accurate shot might suggest a hitman, but I stand by what I said: the left are violent, they encourage violence, they’re intolerant of other views, etc.

Obviously, @Federberg drew the same conclusion that I did from your post. You've made it clear about your attitude towards the left, but you really can't ignore violent rhetoric on the right, starting with Trump who has a laundry list of remarks inciting violence, with his crowds, of the police, and certainly on and before Jan. 6th. He's the king of insult to his rivals and perceived enemies. He has lowered the tone of political discourse in this country by a LOT, since 2015. To me, everything you said above about the left can certainly be said about the right, especially Trump and his MAGA disciples.

It might not be a wonky-wheel leftist who assassinated him, but they certainly are celebrating it and making fake equivalences to assert that he deserved it or brought it on himself. I was glad the MSNBC senior political analyst was fired for his crass, insensitive - but not unexpected - take on this horrible crime:

MSNBC Fires Political Commentator Hours After 'Unacceptable' Charlie Kirk Comments

Matthew Dowd was slammed on social media for suggesting that "hateful words" played a role in the shooting death of the conservative activist.

ca.news.yahoo.com

Personally, I think you're wrong that anything like that is widespread. You're talking about one commentator, who got fired.

When Trump spoke last night about rhetoric leading to political violence, besides Charlie Kirk, he mentioned the attempts on his own life, but failed to even mention the Minnesota Democratic state senator who was assassinated just 2 months ago. When people ask for the rhetoric to be toned down, they seem to only be speaking about those on the other side, Democrats included.

I didn't follow Charlie Kirk. When I heard he was shot, I had to look him up. While I don't agree with a lot of his positions, he seemed sincerely open to debate. It's a real shame to lose that, in addition to it being a tragedy for his family, and yet another example of this new level of political violence. Well, new for now. We saw a lot of it in the 60s.

 

[Moxie]

Russia invaded Polish, and therefore NATO, airspace, and Israel bombed Qatar without even a courtesy call to the US, and Trump basically shrugged. That's not really going to get him that Nobel Peace Prize he covets. Putin and Bibi are playing him for a fool. They do what they like with no consequences. Putin dares this because he knows that Trump doesn't care about NATO and won't defend it. @Federberg, you said this was one of your chief concerns when Trump got elected.

Trump's response to the drones flying over Poland was to take to social media with this, "What's with Russia invading Polish airspace?" Whatever happened to "I'll fix it in a day when I'm elected"? It was all bluster, and now he's not even bothering to bluster. My worry is that we have no real diplomats left, and we've got Pete Hegseth in charge of the DOD.

 

[Kieran]

Obviously, @Federberg drew the same conclusion that I did from your post. You've made it clear about your attitude towards the left, but you really can't ignore violent rhetoric on the right, starting with Trump who has a laundry list of remarks inciting violence, with his crowds, of the police, and certainly on and before Jan. 6th. He's the king of insult to his rivals and perceived enemies. He has lowered the tone of political discourse in this country by a LOT, since 2015. To me, everything you said above about the left can certainly be said about the right, especially Trump and his MAGA disciples.

You never said what conclusions you drew from my post, you just seemed to warn me about drawing conclusions about the killer coming from the left. I’ve drawn my conclusions about the left long ago, they simply confirm these conclusions every now and then, that they’re intolerant and violent. Do you really think that all these “mostly peaceful riots” are actually protests? The bullying and corralling of Jews on campus? No, they’re violent upheavals by a group that demands that everybody believe the same as they do, and does what they demand. They’re bigotry gone mainstream.

They encourage “protest” and rising up, knowing exactly what they’re doing.

Personally, I think you're wrong that anything like that is widespread. You're talking about one commentator, who got fired.

When Trump spoke last night about rhetoric leading to political violence, besides Charlie Kirk, he mentioned the attempts on his own life, but failed to even mention the Minnesota Democratic state senator who was assassinated just 2 months ago. When people ask for the rhetoric to be toned down, they seem to only be speaking about those on the other side, Democrats included.

I don’t like Trump. He was wrong when said that.

I didn't follow Charlie Kirk. When I heard he was shot, I had to look him up. While I don't agree with a lot of his positions, he seemed sincerely open to debate. It's a real shame to lose that, in addition to it being a tragedy for his family, and yet another example of this new level of political violence. Well, new for now. We saw a lot of it in the 60s.

It absolutely is a shame. A leftist friend of mine from America told me he brought it on himself with his “hateful remarks”, none of which she could find. Not one. Irritated, I reminded her that her gorgeous little daughter is the same age as his eldest child. I asked, can you conceive of any good reason why your beautiful daughter should be going through what his kids are now going through. She got annoyed at me and I may have damaged our friendship, but she still didn’t see that the brutal public killing of a conservative is a terrible thing.

Nobody expects anybody to have heard of every conservative or leftist, but Charlie Kirk was a prominent one, and by the way, I didn’t agree with him about everything either. I recommend you sometimes listen with an open mind to what the other side are saying about issues that matter, even just to check that your side are telling the truth, or even God forbid, to see if your side are getting it wrong…

 

[Federberg]

Obviously, @Federberg drew the same conclusion that I did from your post. You've made it clear about your attitude towards the left, but you really can't ignore violent rhetoric on the right, starting with Trump who has a laundry list of remarks inciting violence, with his crowds, of the police, and certainly on and before Jan. 6th. He's the king of insult to his rivals and perceived enemies. He has lowered the tone of political discourse in this country by a LOT, since 2015. To me, everything you said above about the left can certainly be said about the right, especially Trump and his MAGA disciples.

Personally, I think you're wrong that anything like that is widespread. You're talking about one commentator, who got fired.

When Trump spoke last night about rhetoric leading to political violence, besides Charlie Kirk, he mentioned the attempts on his own life, but failed to even mention the Minnesota Democratic state senator who was assassinated just 2 months ago. When people ask for the rhetoric to be toned down, they seem to only be speaking about those on the other side, Democrats included.

I didn't follow Charlie Kirk. When I heard he was shot, I had to look him up. While I don't agree with a lot of his positions, he seemed sincerely open to debate. It's a real shame to lose that, in addition to it being a tragedy for his family, and yet another example of this new level of political violence. Well, new for now. We saw a lot of it in the 60s.

yes you're quite correct, everyone has forgotten about the Minnesota State Legislator. The violence is being perpetrated against BOTH sides. Note that I didn't say the violence is being committed by both sides... we simply don't know for now... we can withhold judgement

 

[Federberg]

Had to put this here

 

[Moxie]

Nobody expects anybody to have heard of every conservative or leftist, but Charlie Kirk was a prominent one, and by the way, I didn’t agree with him about everything either. I recommend you sometimes listen with an open mind to what the other side are saying about issues that matter, even just to check that your side are telling the truth, or even God forbid, to see if your side are getting it wrong…

It doesn't matter how many times I tell you that I do sometimes listen to or watch conservative media, you'll forget I've ever said it, and condescendingly suggest, once again, that I should do it. I'm must have seen Charlie Kirk at the Republican Convention last summer, because I watched about all of it, but I didn't remember the name. And it just really isn't on my radar to watch most people's shows who are on Youtube and TikTok or on podcasts. I was just being honest when I said I had to look him up.

 

[Kieran]

It doesn't matter how many times I tell you that I do sometimes listen to or watch conservative media, you'll forget I've ever said it, and condescendingly suggest, once again, that I should do it. I'm must have seen Charlie Kirk at the Republican Convention last summer, because I watched about all of it, but I didn't remember the name. And it just really isn't on my radar to watch most people's shows who are on Youtube and TikTok or on podcasts. I was just being honest when I said I had to look him up.

I know you were being honest. I wasn’t suggesting you weren’t being honest, but that your take on politics is always partisan to the left, so I was assuming you weren’t listening to the other side at all, since neither side of the aisle has all the correct answers for society, yet you seem to think they do…

 

[Kieran]

I’m still at a loss about this kind of thing. I don’t think people should be fired for saying horrible things, but I get that there are other views. The mob mentality makes me uncomfortable though:

 

[Kieran]

Charlie Kirk Suspect Tyler Robinson Caught

• Governor Spencer Cox says the suspect in Charlie Kirk's killing has been caught
• The FBI and law enforcement officials are giving a news conference now - watch live at the top of the page
• Cox names the suspect as Tyler Robinson, and says a "family member" was involved in turning him in
• Earlier, sources said Robinson confessed to his father
• Cox says a family member reported that Robinson had become "more political" in recent years, and said he "didn't like" Kirk
• Bullet casings were found with inscriptions, Cox says - one on an unfired casing said: "Hey fascist! Catch!"
• Cox thanks Robinson's family for "doing the right thing" - FBI director Kash Patel praises the investigation, saying "historic progress" was made in "33 hours"

 

[Kieran]

These boys don’t hang around. CNN:

What we know about Charlie Kirk shooting suspect Tyler Robinson​

 

[Federberg]

I’m still at a loss about this kind of thing. I don’t think people should be fired for saying horrible things, but I get that there are other views. The mob mentality makes me uncomfortable though:

that's a teacher mate. An educator. Saying that to people who are learning from her? She needed to be sacked... BADLY

 

[Kieran]

that's a teacher mate. An educator. Saying that to people who are learning from her? She needed to be sacked... BADLY

Yeah I see that, and I don’t necessarily disagree, especially given that she’s in an educators job, but it’s so common nowadays that a five second moment of saying something crazy can have the mob after us. A person might instantly regret what they might say on camera but it doesn’t matter, they’re ruined.

There’s no room for forgiveness, or redemption, or that they might clearly have lost their marbles in a bad moment.

In the comments section, instantly people who have no skin in the game become rabid. I think it’s very sad, but in her case, she brought it on herself.

So many videos on social media, by the way, celebrating this young man’s death, it’s really disturbing..

 

[Federberg]

I hear you mate. There've been times when I've been tempted to respond to something on social media, written it up, then paused and ask myself. Do I want the smoke? Then I back off. People know what social media is, they need to own their nonsense. But I do agree that the mob is out of control. Sometimes their outrage is just the destructive need to destroy others

 

[Federberg]

So… the alleged killer wasn’t a leftie??

 

[Kieran]

I hear you mate. There've been times when I've been tempted to respond to something on social media, written it up, then paused and ask myself. Do I want the smoke? Then I back off. People know what social media is, they need to own their nonsense. But I do agree that the mob is out of control. Sometimes their outrage is just the destructive need to destroy others

Yeah I’ve had that. I don’t do politics on insta or Facebook cos it could impact the missus. So many crazies think if you ask a question, you’ve got a bunker too, like Hitler.

I actually enjoy “arguing” or discussing things in good faith, because I think it’s the way to learn, but I’m also becoming more aware that the climate now is very unforgiving and judgemental. I notice it a lot in young people, an intransigence about certain things, they get edgy when you don’t agree, they don’t want to discuss things the way things used to be discussed, that we can make mistakes or say something stupid and regret it, and it was understood.

The world’s become a very sad place when it exposes itself this way. I even feel sorry for this educator (not much) because she’s obviously not educated enough to know herself and her audience. She’s not savvy. It’s like the Soviet Union, one in four people in any room is a snitch, doesn’t matter if they’re family. You have to watch yourself or you’re in for a very cold summer in Siberia..

 

[Kieran]

So… the alleged killer wasn’t a leftie??

According to CNN this bloke fancied himself as a fascist-hunter. The only people who'd think Charlie Kirk was a fascist are the septic sponges on the left...

 

[Federberg]

I love me some JK Rowling!