Let's Talk Serves

[Murat B.]

"Serve alone" category for me would have Ivo,Goran,Isner and Raonic at the top.
"First and second when it matters" category would be Pete and Roger.
"Follow the serve with a killer shot" would again be Pete and Roger, followed by Edberg's volley.
"If my life depended on it, who would I pick to serve for me" category would be Pete by a nose...

 

[Kieran]

That's the stuff, Murat, that's how I'd put it too. Choose somebody to serve against an alien invader who says we keep our water if that man holds serve, and who you gonna call?

 

[the AntiPusher]

"Serve alone" category for me would have Ivo,Goran,Isner and Raonic at the top.
"First and second when it matters" category would be Pete and Roger.
"Follow the serve with a killer shot" would again be Pete and Roger, followed by Edberg's volley.
"If my life depended on it, who would I pick to serve for me" category would be Pete by a nose...

"If my life depended on it, who would I pick to serve for me" category would be Pete by a country mile for me"

 

[the AntiPusher]

Sampras was at the highest level for a server Ever. Sampras had the best 1st and more importantly 2nd serve. Petex could change speeds but typically served in the mid 120 for the entirety of a match. Pete is the only server who could be down 0-40 and still be in total control of his service game. Pete would drop 5 straight bombs on the likes of Agassi .John McEnroe is rated to low, his serve wasnt about power but placement and set up his first volley. Isner has the best in today's ATP touis

that's just cool aid thinking, Sampras' 1st serve was nowhere near Karlovic/Isner's just look at the stats - you can't argue with the numbers. Never understand why fans can just claim this and that just because they love someone.... like reality doesn't matter anymore uzzled

"just cool aid thinking"

What is the hell is "Cool Aid".. this alone kills the basic premise of your post. How may GS or Master titles does Karlovic/Isner's have on their trophy mantel?

 

[brokenshoelace]

What is the hell is "Cool Aid".. this alone kills the basic premise of your post. How may GS or Master titles does Karlovic/Isner's have on their trophy mantel?

Nobody in their right mind would suggest that Karlovic and Isner are on par with Sampras as players, which is why they don't have his resume or trophy mantel.

But if we're talking strictly about the serve, then they have significantly superior serves. It's not Pete's fault, since his serve was phenomenal, and the kind of serves that Isner/Karlovic possess is only possible if you're a giant.

 

[DarthFed]

Sampras never had the best first serve on tour (it was great, but not THE best, as was claimed in an earlier post). Not when he was playing, and certainly not of all time. But it's the combination of 1st and 2nd serve that make him among the all time great serving, as well as his ability to hit aces in the clutch, take pace off to serve and volley, etc...

Whose 1st serve was better back when he played? From memory, Goran, Philippoussis, and Krajicek are the only ones you could possibly argue and that's debatable.

What isn't debatable is that Karlovic and Isner took it to a whole new level. They have the best first serves ever by a good measure, that's just science. Who do I want serving if my life depended on it? Karlovic or Isner, and then hopefully a decent all around players pushes them off the court and plays out the point if the serve somehow comes back.

I make a separate category for greatest servers of players who "matter" and that's a list that Pete is #1 in by far.

 

[Ricardo]

Sampras was at the highest level for a server Ever. Sampras had the best 1st and more importantly 2nd serve. Petex could change speeds but typically served in the mid 120 for the entirety of a match. Pete is the only server who could be down 0-40 and still be in total control of his service game. Pete would drop 5 straight bombs on the likes of Agassi .John McEnroe is rated to low, his serve wasnt about power but placement and set up his first volley. Isner has the best in today's ATP touis

that's just cool aid thinking, Sampras' 1st serve was nowhere near Karlovic/Isner's just look at the stats - you can't argue with the numbers. Never understand why fans can just claim this and that just because they love someone.... like reality doesn't matter anymore uzzled

"just cool aid thinking"

What is the hell is "Cool Aid".. this alone kills the basic premise of your post. How may GS or Master titles does Karlovic/Isner's have on their trophy mantel?

none, so Nadal must have better serve than them combined - nice logic. :clap

 

[Ricardo]

Sampras never had the best first serve on tour (it was great, but not THE best, as was claimed in an earlier post). Not when he was playing, and certainly not of all time. But it's the combination of 1st and 2nd serve that make him among the all time great serving, as well as his ability to hit aces in the clutch, take pace off to serve and volley, etc...

Whose 1st serve was better back when he played? From memory, Goran, Philippoussis, and Krajicek are the only ones you could possibly argue and that's debatable.

What isn't debatable is that Karlovic and Isner took it to a whole new level. They have the best first serves ever by a good measure, that's just science. Who do I want serving if my life depended on it? Karlovic or Isner, and then hopefully a decent all around players pushes them off the court and plays out the point if the serve somehow comes back.

I make a separate category for greatest servers of players who "matter" and that's a list that Pete is #1 in by far.

Goran certainly served more unreturnables than Pete, but what matters as a player is how you back up the ones that do come back - in that regard Sampras was way up there, and Isner/Ivo have poor back court game (especially Ivo) in comparison.

But if you life depended on it? i'd have Ivo serve first serve, Isner second serve and Rafa would be best choice to get into rallies. You'd be pretty sure over 90% of Ivo's serve won't come back, most of Isner's would be service winners while Nadal would probably clean up the very very fews of whatever remains.

 

[Kieran]

Do you think Karlo would serve 90% first serves in a slam final? It's one thing doing it when there's no-one watching, but another thing to serve so well at the highest levels...

 

[Ricardo]

Do you think Karlo would serve 90% first serves in a slam final? It's one thing doing it when there's no-one watching, but another thing to serve so well at the highest levels...

nobody ever serves 90% first serves, but over 90% of Ivo's first serves don't come back - wherever and whenever he plays. His serve is so good that he takes Fed and Rafa to tiebreaks on his serve alone, and nobody even comes close to it.

Get this, his poor serving day (of first serves) is still better than any day of Sampras's... it is that much better, just like how much better Pete is in other areas of the game than Ivo; unfortunately that's what counts. Get this, here is a guy nearly 7 feet tall, has career-overall as high a service holding % as Sampras yet has none of Pete's volley, movement, forehand, backhand, anticipation.......etc etc. It simply wouldn't be possible unless his serve is way better than Pete's.

You keep diverting focus to slam finals, as if being clutch is the only way to determine it...... that's dead wrong, just silly really. Discussion is not about who is more clutch, (Rafa is more clutch anyway if you want to go into that) it's simply who serves a better serve and nothing else.

 

[Kieran]

No, the discussion is about who has the better serve, that's right. And the higher you go, the harder it gets. I think if my life was on the line, I'd take the clutch guy, wouldn't you? I mean, just to be sure neither of us would miss Coronation Street at 7.30..

 

[Ricardo]

No, the discussion is about who has the better serve, that's right. And the higher you go, the harder it gets. I think if my life was on the line, I'd take the clutch guy, wouldn't you? I mean, just to be sure neither of us would miss Coronation Street at 7.30..

come on, it wasn't like he was serving against nobodies. He made tiebreaks after tiebreaks against Fed, Rafa and Djoker who are all some of the best returners in the game. He proved his serve against the best, as to your argument he didn't do it in slam finals? you know as well as anyone, with a true one-dimensional game he was never gonna....... if the only evidence is how one serves in a final, then you'd also validate that Rafa has a better serve too :clap or Chang, or Wilander, or Gaudio, or Djoker :laydownlaughing

 

[brokenshoelace]

Sampras never had the best first serve on tour (it was great, but not THE best, as was claimed in an earlier post). Not when he was playing, and certainly not of all time. But it's the combination of 1st and 2nd serve that make him among the all time great serving, as well as his ability to hit aces in the clutch, take pace off to serve and volley, etc...

Whose 1st serve was better back when he played? From memory, Goran, Philippoussis, and Krajicek are the only ones you could possibly argue and that's debatable.

What isn't debatable is that Karlovic and Isner took it to a whole new level. They have the best first serves ever by a good measure, that's just science. Who do I want serving if my life depended on it? Karlovic or Isner, and then hopefully a decent all around players pushes them off the court and plays out the point if the serve somehow comes back.

I make a separate category for greatest servers of players who "matter" and that's a list that Pete is #1 in by far.

Pretty much the guys you mentioned. Goran in particular had a better first serve (again, when taken in isolation), helped no doubt by being a lefty.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Do you think Karlo would serve 90% first serves in a slam final? It's one thing doing it when there's no-one watching, but another thing to serve so well at the highest levels...

Doesn't matter. That's not the argument here. Everybody and their mother made sure to mention that "WHEN TAKEN IN ISOLATION" (ie regardless of clutch), Karlovic's serve is much (yes MUCH) better than Pete's. I don't know how Karlovic would serve in a slam final because he'll never make it there, but I know for a near fact he wouldn't serve anything worse than say, 65% because it's near humanly impossible for him to. Again, this is science.

 

[Ricardo]

Do you think Karlo would serve 90% first serves in a slam final? It's one thing doing it when there's no-one watching, but another thing to serve so well at the highest levels...

Doesn't matter. That's not the argument here. Everybody and their mother made sure to mention that "WHEN TAKEN IN ISOLATION" (ie regardless of clutch), Karlovic's serve is much (yes MUCH) better than Pete's. I don't know how Karlovic would serve in a slam final because he'll never make it there, but I know for a near fact he wouldn't serve anything worse than say, 65% because it's near humanly impossible for him to. Again, this is science.

oh but logic and context don't work with Kieran, he is all about...... "my idol has to be the best, and i'll make up some key word for it to happen (in his argument) no matter what".... the key word here is "clutch", who cares if it's irrelevant in this discussion? as long as it props up my boy!! :snigger

 

[Kieran]

Ah I get it now.

Nalbandian is the goat. Let's all discuss...

 

[Ricardo]

To be blunt as far as Ivo vs Sampras serve goes, Ivo serves from a foot higher (his height + arm length) so his % is always higher, with more bite off the court (thus bounces way higher = more difficult to even touch let along return it), also off the same toss (as deceptive) and more velocity..... which simply means better QUALITY.

oh but that quality is NONE because he didn't do it in a slam final (like he was ever gonna...), according to Kieran.

 

[Ricardo]

Ah I get it now.

Nalbandian is the goat. Let's all discuss...

you just have to be a little tennis-illiterate, not that difficult

 

[Kieran]

That's true. For example, you can't isolate a shot from its circumstance...

 

[Kieran]

To be blunt as far as Ivo vs Sampras serve goes, Ivo serves from a foot higher (his height + arm length) so his % is always higher, with more bite off the court (thus bounces way higher = more difficult to even touch let along return it), also off the same toss (as deceptive) and more velocity..... which simply means better QUALITY.

oh but that quality is NONE because he didn't do it in a slam final (like he was ever gonna...), according to Kieran.

No, he never did it at the highest level, so giving him it as if he did is generous. I get the science on Dr Evil's serve by the way, but in the rarefied air of a major, the laws of science are different. However, if people can isolate the shot - somehow - his is certainly a modern wonder...