Johnny Mac said Serena would be ranked 700th on ATP

[Ricardo]

John was probably being kind with the 700 estimate. After Serena got thrashed by a guy ranked 206 many years ago, she promised to come back and challenge men again but never delivered.

http://www.sportingnews.com/au/tenn...-williams-comments/15knrsmljq0zr170ssntf8vv6f

I think she knows what happens when women play against men, saying 'not having time' is a lame excuse that no real champions should do that.

 

[britbox]

I'm glad McEnroe didn't apologise because the whole thing is bullshit and like he said, if you want real equality then the women and men can play the same draw. Dmitry Tursunov is #701 by the way. I'd take him over Serena in straight sets and easily.

That article said Riggs and BJK was the first time it happened. It wasn't, Riggs had beaten Margaret Court in straights comfortably before. There were lots of rumours that Riggs had laid big money on himself to lose the match against King.

 

[Ricardo]

now if you say anything that's not praising women, you are going to be interpreted as a sexist. Thats what i always believed, to achieve absolute equality people must play the same field no if and buts. whenever you play different league, the element of true equality is removed. I hope people realise that in society these days most things are manipulated to suit fashionable PC agendas.

example, someone says women make better managers........praises everywhere
someone says men are better drivers.........shshhhhhh, the sexist must be silenced.

the match with Court was not mentioned by most media for similar reason. Court was actually favoured to win, while BJK was given a long shot in the bets......Riggs was confirmed as someone who gambled for a living, and the results were exactly as what paid him the best. While feminists celebrated 'beating men', i wonder if all of them are stupid to really believe.......on top of the fact that Riggs was almost 60, a joke really.

 

[Jelenafan]

The issue has never been "equality" ; that is a smokescreen. BJK and the women have never claimed they can play with the top men, because physically men have upper body strength overall that the women athletes don't posses. That is not sexism, it's just a fact.

The stance of BJK and the women is that they provide just as entertaining a product and that they have as much of drawing power as the men. Agree or disagree, but that is not the same thing as saying the men should get paid more because they are the stronger players and could beat the women head to head. The women train just as hard and the depth in their fields is arguably as good If not better than the men's these days.

The whole canard that they don't play 5 set matches (they've many times offered to, and TBH, the men's matches probably should be shortened because the Majors are a muddled mess with scheduling) or they woudln't be competitive directly playing the men; it's hard to believe these straw man arguments are still being presented.

The Majors in particular present a full package of men, women's and doubles and mixed. Certainly it has not hurt the Majors to have equal play since they are lucrative and the overall package has been more then successful to say the least.

 

[britbox]

The issue has never been "equality" ; that is a smokescreen. BJK and the women have never claimed they can play with the top men, because physically men have upper body strength overall that the women athletes don't posses. That is not sexism, it's just a fact.

The stance of BJK and the women is that they provide just as entertaining a product and that they have as much of drawing power as the men. Agree or disagree, but that is not the same thing as saying the men should get paid more because they are the stronger players and could beat the women head to head. The women train just as hard and the depth in their fields is arguably as good If not better than the men's these days.

The whole canard that they don't play 5 set matches (they've many times offered to, and TBH, the men's matches probably should be shortened because the Majors are a muddled mess with scheduling) or they woudln't be competitive directly playing the men; it's hard to believe these straw man arguments are still being presented.

If women can negotiate the prize money then I'm all for them doing so. That's a different argument really than McEnroe getting pulled up for his comments on the best.

 

[Busted]

John was probably being kind with the 700 estimate. After Serena got thrashed by a guy ranked 206 many years ago, she promised to come back and challenge men again but never delivered.

http://www.sportingnews.com/au/tenn...-williams-comments/15knrsmljq0zr170ssntf8vv6f

I think she knows what happens when women play against men, saying 'not having time' is a lame excuse that no real champions should do that.

Don't even get me started on this. As a woman I am beyond annoyed - not on Serena's behalf, but WITH Serena. She just whined to Vanity Fair or some other magazine that if she were a man, then she'd be considered the greatest athlete\tennis player of all time. She cannot have it both ways. Yes, she has more Slam titles than Federer - and Nadal - but the reality is, she would have ZERO Slam titles if she played on the men's tour. I don't even think she'd have made it out of qualifying. She can't now get pissy about what McEnroe said when she herself has raised the issue of the disparity in how she's perceived vis-a-vis male tennis greats. It is 100% accurate that on any given day she MAY be able to beat a lower ranked male tennis player. But go toe-to-toe with Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, etc., every day of her career the way Federer has done for 20 years? Please. Sit down, Serena. (And while I'm being crabby - I still say Steffi Graf is a better athlete and tennis player and rank her ahead of Serena. At least she had decent competition!)

 

[GameSetAndMath]

To be fair to JMac, he did not say what he is said by himself. He was being explicitly asked by the interviewer as to whether he would be willing to drop the "female" when he said "Serena is the best female tennis player ever". It was not JMac trying to compare men and women or suggesting they should play in one circuit. The interviewer asked a direct question and JMac gave a honest answer.

 

[Federberg]

Exactly so! It's one thing to say she's the greatest, or most accomplished. But best!! For goodness sakes. Best means you can beat. If she played anyone of the big 4, the only question would be how many points she would get. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the four gave her a golden set...

Some of these pc people try to have their cake and eat it

 

[Carol]

Talking about the Williams, Venus is in trouble and I've heard though the TV news that she has been sued

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4651946/Venus-Williams-blamed-car-crash-killed-old-man.html

 

[Moxie]

There's really no reason to put Serena's accomplishments in the context of the men's game. They don't play each other. Everything else is just a trap door down a rabbit hole.

 

[DarthFed]

The feminism movement gets ridiculous at times, ie all the time. There is nothing wrong with what JMac said, he was actually being very generous. A woman is simply not the best athlete in any physical sport, maybe the time will come WAY down the road but even that is unlikely. And then you get all the outrage at the comments and idiots chiming in saying Serena would beat Kyrgios and other wacky statements.

I get that you can possibly say "greatest" of all time because that measures dominance but even that seems faulty when the women's game is so much weaker. It'd be like saying the greatest college tennis player is greater than Federer because he never lost a college match.

 

[tossip]

Serena better give Jonny Macocaine a cease and desist letter...

 

[Ricardo]

There's really no reason to put Serena's accomplishments in the context of the men's game. They don't play each other. Everything else is just a trap door down a rabbit hole.

don't they all look for the easy way out when facing the inevitable comparison? oh but they don't play each other........we compare players who don't play each other all the time, only when it comes to women we make concessions.

put it this way, she got lippy more than once.....saying she could beat men this and that, and she failed miserably when putting her words into action. WTA players are not good enough as tennis players, they just want more money......deserve or not.

 

[Ricardo]

The feminism movement gets ridiculous at times, ie all the time. There is nothing wrong with what JMac said, he was actually being very generous. A woman is simply not the best athlete in any physical sport, maybe the time will come WAY down the road but even that is unlikely. And then you get all the outrage at the comments and idiots chiming in saying Serena would beat Kyrgios and other wacky statements.

I get that you can possibly say "greatest" of all time because that measures dominance but even that seems faulty when the women's game is so much weaker. It'd be like saying the greatest college tennis player is greater than Federer because he never lost a college match.

if one does not achieve the same on the same level then one simply cannot have the same merit. hence the greatest junior is not the greater than any ATP player, and neither is any WTA player. don't know how we get so many agenda driven idiots who can say otherwise, by shutting out their conscience.

 

[Ricardo]

Don't even get me started on this. As a woman I am beyond annoyed - not on Serena's behalf, but WITH Serena. She just whined to Vanity Fair or some other magazine that if she were a man, then she'd be considered the greatest athlete\tennis player of all time. She cannot have it both ways. Yes, she has more Slam titles than Federer - and Nadal - but the reality is, she would have ZERO Slam titles if she played on the men's tour. I don't even think she'd have made it out of qualifying. She can't now get pissy about what McEnroe said when she herself has raised the issue of the disparity in how she's perceived vis-a-vis male tennis greats. It is 100% accurate that on any given day she MAY be able to beat a lower ranked male tennis player. But go toe-to-toe with Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, etc., every day of her career the way Federer has done for 20 years? Please. Sit down, Serena. (And while I'm being crabby - I still say Steffi Graf is a better athlete and tennis player and rank her ahead of Serena. At least she had decent competition!)

mostly agreed but i don't think it takes her playing against the top males to find out, when anyone in the hundreds would more than likely crash her. There is a reason why she never came back to take on any man, after promising to do so.

 

[Ricardo]

The issue has never been "equality" ; that is a smokescreen. BJK and the women have never claimed they can play with the top men, because physically men have upper body strength overall that the women athletes don't posses. That is not sexism, it's just a fact.

The stance of BJK and the women is that they provide just as entertaining a product and that they have as much of drawing power as the men. Agree or disagree, but that is not the same thing as saying the men should get paid more because they are the stronger players and could beat the women head to head. The women train just as hard and the depth in their fields is arguably as good If not better than the men's these days.

The whole canard that they don't play 5 set matches (they've many times offered to, and TBH, the men's matches probably should be shortened because the Majors are a muddled mess with scheduling) or they woudln't be competitive directly playing the men; it's hard to believe these straw man arguments are still being presented.

The Majors in particular present a full package of men, women's and doubles and mixed. Certainly it has not hurt the Majors to have equal play since they are lucrative and the overall package has been more then successful to say the least.

it is beyond stupid to base your argument on 'they train just as hard'......what does that even mean? many people work as hard or harder than Bill Gates but they just don't achieve the same, or get the payouts, its irrelevant that it doesn't get deserve explanation.

And please don't give us the 'men are stronger' bs. Pick some skinny little man (like Hewitt) and he still beats up on Williams 6-0. besides, even in non-physical sport as snooker or golf, men beat women on skills and ability......alone.

 

[Moxie]

don't they all look for the easy way out when facing the inevitable comparison? oh but they don't play each other........we compare players who don't play each other all the time, only when it comes to women we make concessions.

put it this way, she got lippy more than once.....saying she could beat men this and that, and she failed miserably when putting her words into action. WTA players are not good enough as tennis players, they just want more money......deserve or not.

My point is that there's no reason to compare them. They don't play each other. Serena is, by all accounts, a very, very great athlete. No one disputes that. Tennis, like a lot of sports, favors the male strengths...in this case, upper body, for arm and back strength, but also higher center of gravity for quickness of movement. To say Serena has ever gotten "lippy" does border on bigotry, though, as if to say a woman doesn't have the right to say certain things. She's proved a lot in her tennis.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

There's really no reason to put Serena's accomplishments in the context of the men's game. They don't play each other. Everything else is just a trap door down a rabbit hole.

Read the full news article. JMac did not venture into comparing Serena with male players. He said in the interview that Serena is probably the greatest female tennis player. The interviewer asked him explicitly whether he would be willing to drop the "female" word in his statement and he answered.

 

[Moxie]

Read the full news article. JMac did not venture into comparing Serena with male players. He said in the interview that Serena is probably the greatest female tennis player. The interviewer asked him explicitly whether he would be willing to drop the "female" word in his statement and he answered.

I've read the article and heard any number of interviews. I agree that the interviewer started it, and I have never said that Johnny Mac was wrong to say what he said, nor that he should apologize for it. I'm saying where they are both wrong is trying to compare female and male tennis players. It's unnecessary. They essentially don't play each other and they don't play in the same context. That's what I'm saying is the rabbit hole we don't need to go down.

 

[Jelenafan]

I've read the article and heard any number of interviews. I agree that the interviewer started it, and I have never said that Johnny Mac was wrong to say what he said, nor that he should apologize for it. I'm saying where they are both wrong is trying to compare female and male tennis players. It's unnecessary. They essentially don't play each other and they don't play in the same context. That's what I'm saying is the rabbit hole we don't need to go down.

I'll go even further. When you discuss the GOAT arguments in any sport, you will get critieria thrown up which makes it's irrelevant as to who is "better" head to head. Many would opine that Babe Ruth deserves to be included in the discussions of greatest baseball player ever, despite the speculation that in the modern era he might not even be competitive. The criteria being his domination vis-a-via his contemporaries, ie such stats as that in one season his HR Totals were more than entire rosters of all other AL teams HR totals, etc. So Babe Ruth clearly outdistanced the competition. That is why before Nadal, many would have argued that Chris Evert was the greatest clay court player ever , even though it was obvious that she couldn't beat the top 1000 ATP players on clay.

That is why despite Serena going down the rabbit hole, (and Mac even if somewhat forced to) a bigger issue has been missed. Serena COULD be discussed as the greatest tennis player ever, if, say the criteria would be most Majors won in the Open Era (23) and the player with most longevity at or near the top. Her Majors Win career spans 19 years (1999-1917), being ranked #! Within a spectrum of 15 years (2002-2017)and one could say she has played against the top players of 3 different eras, etc.

What I find objectionable is Mac seemingly aghast that Serena could even be considered in those terms , when I'm sure he would find no problem including Rod Laver on the short list, despite the fact that he would probably be physically overmatched today. I get why many would not include Serena in the short list of Greatest tennis player ever, but by that same token I get why others would think she's worthy of being included in the conversation.