Jason Collins

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

he was in the closet..thats the point. which is what this thread is about, he only got married because of social pressure..he felt forced into it to suit society, his parents, and his then girlfriend that he didn't even want.

going to meet strangers in carparks or toilets was the only way he could ever meet men anonymously he wouldn't even go to 'gay bars' in case he was spotted in it, or near it (in his words)..

his wife should never have been his wife and his kids were the result of a sham marriage..he got married to please everyone else not him.

 

[Denis]

Cali aren't you in love with David Nalbandian?

 

[calitennis127]

Cali aren't you in love with David Nalbandian?

Funny question for this thread but the answer is "no, not anymore than the devoted fan of any player".

Nalbandian is also seen as a thug and an a-hole, which is rare for a tennis player. Kieran called him a "miscreant" once. I identify with the philosophical nature of Nalbandian's playing style and I truly admire the aesthetic brilliance of his game. But I have serious objections to how he has planned and trained over the years.

 

[Riotbeard]

Now, don't take this wrong, and I don't approve of blackmail, but did you ever wonder how that guys wife felt when she found out? I mean, can you imagine how exposed and hurt and betrayed and sickened she felt?

I'm not condoning blackmail, but hell had no fury, etc, and in the narrative you have us, he's cruising toilets and carparks? And she found out? He's lucky she didn't shoot him.

And wouldn't he have had to pay for his own kids upkeep anyway? Or was that separate?

I guess we have gotten to the point to where it is worth saying for the sake of where people are coming from, I am straight, but i have interviewed gay men for history projects in grad school, and JesusLLB's narrative seems familliar to me. As far as the women in these relationships goes. Of course she is deserving of pity and empathy, but that does not mean the man is not also. Cruising toilets and carparks is a weird idea from a straight male point of view, but historically this was one of the few places a gay man could go(at least in the states) to find relations, both sexual and emotional. I interviewed someone who lost his virginity (not at a young age) in a bathroom at UCLA. The narrative I tried to create in my longer posts is that of the politics of being gay in America historically (which I imagine translates generally to other western countries). Congrats JesuslookslikeBorg on being able to express your own identity. It is not easy from what I have heard.

 

[britbox]

he was in the closet..thats the point. which is what this thread is about, he only got married because of social pressure..he felt forced into it to suit society, his parents, and his then girlfriend that he didn't even want.

going to meet strangers in carparks or toilets was the only way he could ever meet men anonymously he wouldn't even go to 'gay bars' in case he was spotted in it, or near it (in his words)..

his wife should never have been his wife and his kids were the result of a sham marriage..he got married to please everyone else not him.

At the very least he shouldn't have got married and lied to his wife for years and children who are now being told they were the product of a lie. Society doesn't force people to get married or have kids. Lot's of people don't.

Understanding his reasons may be one thing, but high fiving the guy for "bravery" is something else. Because he couldn't face up to his own issues, he left a lot of collateral damage by using others as a cover. I'm with Kieran - the wife and kids deserve more empathy.

 

[Moxie]

The guy has no ex-wife and no kids. And I believe some are treading on the ground of imagination by getting into "car parks and toilets," as well. There's a little site called google.com, if you've never heard of Jason Collins, and you might try it before posting opinions about his life choices. There was an ex-girlfriend, but apparently she has been interviewed, and supports him.

I think the OP about his coming out in one of the major US men's sports is an important news event. Based on some of the reactions in this thread, I guess we can see why. Men's sports has been considered a bit of a "brick-wall" in terms of acceptance of homosexuality, but that appears to be changing. Plenty of straight athletes have come out in support of tolerance in the major sports, in the last few years, and many athletes have spoken out in support of Jason Collins' decision. It can only be for the good.

 

[britbox]

The guy has no ex-wife and no kids. And I believe some are treading on the ground of imagination by getting into "car parks and toilets," as well. There's a little site called google.com, if you've never heard of Jason Collins, and you might try it before posting opinions about his life choices. There was an ex-girlfriend, but apparently she has been interviewed, and supports him.

I think the OP about his coming out in one of the major US men's sports is an important news event. Based on some of the reactions in this thread, I guess we can see why. Men's sports has been considered a bit of a "brick-wall" in terms of acceptance of homosexuality, but that appears to be changing. Plenty of straight athletes have come out in support of tolerance in the major sports, in the last few years, and many athletes have spoken out in support of Jason Collins' decision. It can only be for the good.

Lol. Apologies - I was merging him and the character mentioned by JLLB into the same person and getting wires crossed.

 

[Kieran]

In the Collins thing, I have huge sympathy for his ex-fiancee who wasted eight years of her life living his lie. At least he knew it was a lie. She wasted almost a decade of her life on this. The more I read about it, I think of his announcement as being self-serving and opportunistic.

In Borgie's scenario above, I presume the girl didn't propose to him, right? She went into the marriage for the right reasons and they didn't have just one accidental 'sham' cover-up kid, they had three of the little blighters. If the rest of it's true, the toilets and private eye, etc, then I can't begin to imagine how terrifying that was for her.

But he's the victim, eh?

As for blackmail, he should count himself lucky. The legal term is 'maintenance', but she probably couldn't trust him with that, either...

EDIT: By the way, I understand there's huge social pressures and these things aren't one-dimensional etc, but Jason Collins gets a slot on Oprah, and his ex gets the public humiliation of facing the lie her life was. This isn't an example of a noble guy in suffering. He should have kept schtum. If he was 23 and starting out and was so burdened with fear and anxiety, I could say it was a huge step, but not having read about it and seeing the stage of life he's at.

And the stage of life his ex is at...

 

[Moxie]

The guy has no ex-wife and no kids. And I believe some are treading on the ground of imagination by getting into "car parks and toilets," as well. There's a little site called google.com, if you've never heard of Jason Collins, and you might try it before posting opinions about his life choices. There was an ex-girlfriend, but apparently she has been interviewed, and supports him.

I think the OP about his coming out in one of the major US men's sports is an important news event. Based on some of the reactions in this thread, I guess we can see why. Men's sports has been considered a bit of a "brick-wall" in terms of acceptance of homosexuality, but that appears to be changing. Plenty of straight athletes have come out in support of tolerance in the major sports, in the last few years, and many athletes have spoken out in support of Jason Collins' decision. It can only be for the good.

Lol. Apologies - I was merging him and the character mentioned by JLLB into the same person and getting wires crossed.

LOL. I'm guilty of skimming, often, as well. But you said before you don't know who this guy is, and you don't know why this is a big news item. Look, most of us never knew who he was, either. He's not LeBron James. But, as has been discussed in the media rather a lot of late, over here in the US, there was never, until now, any out-gay active player in our football, baseball, hockey or basketball. (NFL, MLB, NHL, or NBA, to use the acronyms, and be specific.) These are the big-money, high-profile sports on the men's side, here. Collins being an active player and coming out is huge. It IS a 'Jackie Robinson' moment. (And you can google him, too. )

 

[Denis]

Nice Moxie. I think it is a brave move by Collins. Society expects you to marry etc, there is huge social pressure on you to do so especially when you are in the spotlights like this NBA player. I find the 'sympathy' by Kieran and others dishonest. Who knows his ex-girlfriend actually supports his coming out? Maybe she is proud of him too? What do you know about what she thinks?

 

[Kieran]

Nice Moxie. I think it is a brave move by Collins. Society expects you to marry etc, there is huge social pressure on you to do so especially when you are in the spotlights like this NBA player. I find the 'sympathy' by Kieran and others dishonest. Who knows his ex-girlfriend actually supports his coming out? Maybe she is proud of him too? What do you know about what she thinks?

You find my sympathy dishonest, but not his lying to her?

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-b...er-fiancee-carolyn-moos-had-no-170001023.html

You should check with me first to see if I'm telling the truth, okay? I'm getting my news from the same source you are...

 

[Denis]

She said "I care about [Jason] tremendously and only want the best for him," she said. "I want Jason to be happy for a lifetime and stay true to who he really is, inside and out." I think you are too quick to judge and too harsh on this guy. It's obviously preferable that he would have known and been open about it from an early age. I do think a lot of societies are moving in the direction in which this will be easier in the future.

 

[Moxie]

Nice Moxie. I think it is a brave move by Collins. Society expects you to marry etc, there is huge social pressure on you to do so especially when you are in the spotlights like this NBA player. I find the 'sympathy' by Kieran and others dishonest. Who knows his ex-girlfriend actually supports his coming out? Maybe she is proud of him too? What do you know about what she thinks?

You find my sympathy dishonest, but not his lying to her?

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-b...er-fiancee-carolyn-moos-had-no-170001023.html

You should check with me first to see if I'm telling the truth, okay? I'm getting my news from the same source you are...

I don't think it's a question of whether or not you're telling the "truth." It's a question of where sympathies lie. He certainly wouldn't have been the first man who pretended for a number of years to be more committed to a woman than he was. After a certain point, she's complicit, as well. She had the option to move on.

 

[Kieran]

She said "I care about [Jason] tremendously and only want the best for him," she said. "I want Jason to be happy for a lifetime and stay true to who he really is, inside and out." I think you are too quick to judge and too harsh on this guy. It's obviously preferable that he would have known and been open about it from an early age. I do think a lot of societies are moving in the direction in which this will be easier in the future.

Which means she's a nice girl, eh? She also said she's shocked and she had wanted to marry him and have babies and she wasted 8 years. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Do you think she'll have trust issues in future? And is this insignificant?

And is she deserving of no sympathy at all for having to live through his lie?

And is everybody who sympathises with her "dishonest?"

---

He certainly wouldn't have been the first man who pretended for a number of years to be more committed to a woman than he was. After a certain point, she's complicit, as well. She had the option to move on.

You're kidding me, Sista! How is she complicit? :huh:

When did women start blaming their own for men's lies? When the liar was gay? Is that the difference? Your sympathies don't lie with her? Because she's complicit?

It's the liar who's wrong - straight or gay - not the person who did the right thing and believed him...

 

[Denis]

Yes, dishonest. Their relationship is none of your business. Many people have longterm relationships and discover that they are not ment to be with each other. It happens all the time. You just have a problem with his sexual orientation.

 

[Kieran]

Yes, dishonest. Their relationship is none of your business. Many people have longterm relationships and discover that they are not ment to be with each other. It happens all the time. You just have a problem with his sexual orientation.

Now look who's being dishonest. I haven't a problem at all with his sexual orientation and I defended him. I have a problem with the reasons behind his announcement and the lives it affected.

If all this is nobody's business but his, then why didn't he keep it that way?

 

[Denis]

Well, that's an interesting question. Maybe he preferred coming out on his own terms and not through gossip and rumours (in the press). He would have gotten the attention anyway.

 

[Kieran]

Well, maybe he wouldn't have.

Choose your words well before you call anyone dishonest. If I disagree with somebody, it's because I disagree. It isn't out of dishonesty. I don't fall out with them either, as Moxie and plenty others here will tell you. I state my view according to how I believe it to be...

 

[tented]

Just as it would be impossible for me to know -- to really know -- what it's like, on a day-to-day basis, to be a woman, or to be black, it is impossible for those who aren't gay to understand what it's like. Trust me.

To begin with, you would have to imagine that you're suddenly not only a member of a minority, but one which requires you to state that. If you're a woman, or if you're black, for example, that's obvious -- your inclusion in a minority is self-apparent.

Also, your groups are legally protected. It is illegal to discriminate against blacks and women. That is not always the case for gays. In fact, I believe it's the only minority where it is still legal to discriminate against them. Furthermore, there are individuals and groups trying all the time to make it even more difficult: passing laws which make sure you're treated differently. Which make sure the discrimination remains intact, if not accelerated.

So, if you can take the imaginative leap to pretend this is your experience thus far, now imagine what it's like to be, say, eight years old, and know you're gay, yet be surrounded by a culture which has so many signs that this is wrong. Or disgusting. Or a sin. Or a choice. And now you have to tell people that you're a part of that group?! Sound easy?

It is utterly impossible for a straight man to truly understand what it means to be gay. To experience firsthand the full force of the hatred, rejection, discrimination, ostracism, and violence. To know there's the possibility that if you even tell someone you're gay, your life could literally immediately be in danger.

It is impossible for them to understand the relentless pressures to fit in, to adapt, to hide, to conceal, to lie. And, yes, even to date women, if not marry them, and have children.

So unless you've walked a mile in those shoes, don't be so quick to judge.

 

[Denis]

@ kieran: I don't think you are dishonest, but your post on your sympathies with his ex-girlfriend came accross as dishonest to me when I read it. But I probably worded my objections too strongly, apologies for that. In any event, I don't care too much about all this. It's really a personal thing for this guy, although I do think it's brave of him to come out as a sportsperson.