Is there a double standard for Novak Djokovic's behaviour?

britbox

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
27,362
Reactions
6,148
Points
113
Location
Gold Coast, Australia
djokovic-angry-265093315.jpg


Controversial Article: http://www.vavel.com/en-us/tennis-usa/656987-is-there-a-double-standard-for-novak-djokovic.html

The points the author makes aren't far from the same rumblings by Nick Kyrgios recently.



Thoughts on the article?

I did have me thinking if Kyrgios had done the same, that he'd be sanctioned for sure.
 

Ricardo

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
2,673
Reactions
646
Points
113
the ITF or ATP, is known to do that. If you are one of the big boys, you get away with things others don't. Johnny Mac would tell you his first hand experience, he abused and got no real problems for years when he was big. Years later he got kicked off at AO for doing the same thing, obviously he forgot he was a big fish no more.

And you bet ITF/ATP won't admit anything.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
42,645
Reactions
13,836
Points
113
Yes, I would say that the article is controversial. And not wholly fair. Surely Novak is no Connors or McEnroe. He's sometimes given to irritable behavior on court, and maybe he should get done for it more often, especially of late, with the umpires. The obvious contrast is with Kyrgios, who has complained about it directly, and who seems to be on permanent parole. If the question is if it's doled out completely fairly, I think we'd all say no. But is it because they're top players and unsanctionable, or is it the randomness of umpire discretion? I think there's an argument for the latter. An example: earlier this year, Nadal, very uncharacteristically, used an obscenity, and got the code warning for it. He implored the umpire that he'd never done that before, but no leniency. Correct to the letter of the law, but another umpire might have told him not to do it again, knowing that he never had before, without the official caution. An example of a top player given no break.

There is latitude in the choices that the chair umpires make, and I'm generally in favor of it. They are the arbiters of the match. If sanctions come later about behavior, the ITP can decide, and levy fines.

While the main difference between Djokovic and Kyrgios is their status in the game, of course, another big factor is that Novak presents himself as a good guy, even when he has sometimes been on the edge of disagreeable, snarly will ball kids or umpires and smashing racquets. Nick has embraced the black hat. I think this has a lot to do with how Djokovic is handled, especially in contrast to Nick. Novak sells himself better as a "good guy." And the umpires buy it. It's not wholly about being #1 or top 5. If you're perceived as a generally honorable, you'll be treated as such. Fair? Not necessarily. But understandable in human terms. And umpires are human.
 
Last edited:

Ricardo

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
2,673
Reactions
646
Points
113
it isn't the same Nadal anymore, like it wasn't the same Mac.
 

britbox

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
27,362
Reactions
6,148
Points
113
Location
Gold Coast, Australia
Novak's pretty well behaved generally... the starter was really more about the double standards applied to Kyrgios... who is nowhere near the likes of McEnroe or any of the big mouths of yesteryear. Nick seems to get singled out a lot and the snowball just seems to get bigger.
 

Obsi

Masters Champion
Joined
Jan 31, 2016
Messages
556
Reactions
0
Points
0
Anotther false claim that the author makes is this:

"The greatest in the history of the game have behaved like greats."

Pancho Gonzales is arguably the GOAT but he is one of the biggest jerks in tennis history.
 

britbox

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
27,362
Reactions
6,148
Points
113
Location
Gold Coast, Australia
Anotther false claim that the author makes is this:

"The greatest in the history of the game have behaved like greats."

Pancho Gonzales is arguably the GOAT but he is one of the biggest jerks in tennis history.

I know he didn't get on with fellow pros too well, other than maybe Hoad but why else is he one of the biggest jerks in history?
 

EdbergsGhost

Masters Champion
Joined
Sep 29, 2015
Messages
729
Reactions
154
Points
43
You have to laugh when you read an article like this. The author has his point of view. I agree that there is always a double standard for the top players in any sport. Whether or not it is in effect here is a matter of opinion. When parsing out punishment, what the authorities look at is "intent". Was the player doing something intentionally or was it unconscious.

When Djoker touched Bernardes' arm, the chair was actually touching the mark itself and changing it. They are friendly and Novak was trying to stop him from messing up the mark. It was a mistake to touch the chair, but it wasn't malicious. Hawkeye proved the Serb was correct. The racquet incident where the lines person was almost hit, was again - unintentional. Regarding the incidents with the ball kids, the author fails to mention that Djokovic met with them (and the parents I believe) to apologize.

Kyrgios' comments to Stan were intentional, as are other of his antics. He yells obscenities at his box (as does Murray, who escaped mention). Djoker emotes in Serbian which is harder to tell whether he's cussing or just angry. I like Kyrgios by the way.

Djokovic has a very different personality than Nadal or Federer. He gets fired up and he has broken his share of racquets. I'm not sure that is something he should be judged for. He is also quick to applaud his opponent's shotmaking. He concedes the point to his opponent when he thinks the call went against them incorrectly. When he loses, he is gracious and congratulatory in ways most are not. Of course the author also fails to mention these things.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
42,645
Reactions
13,836
Points
113
...the starter was really more about the double standards applied to Kyrgios... who is nowhere near the likes of McEnroe or any of the big mouths of yesteryear. Nick seems to get singled out a lot and the snowball just seems to get bigger.
I don't completely agree with this, in a couple of ways. Connors and McEnroe, the biggest loudmouths of yesteryear, argued with chair umpires over calls. However loudly and obnoxiously, with smashing of racquets and water bottles. But what they did is the extreme version of what a lot of players do: to argue with the chair. I'm trying to think of any of the bad boys, like Nastase or Tiriac, even, to find an example of impugning a player's romantic partner on court, or deliberately tanking a game. You know that I'm generally in Nick's corner, but he stepped across a few big lines in a short amount of time last summer. I believe that puts him on a sort of semi-permanent parole with the chairs umps. I don't think it has "snowballed." He's been better behaved, and they've seen that. But when he steps over the line, they're ready for him. He made that bed. It can change over time, but that's going to be up to him being on stellar behavior. You can't unwrite what you already wrote.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EdbergsGhost

Carol

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2015
Messages
9,225
Reactions
1,833
Points
113
Agree that Connors and Mac have been the biggest mouth on court but Novak is not too far behind them. He has lost the manners in several occasions and not just yelling but also insulting

 
Last edited:

Carol

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2015
Messages
9,225
Reactions
1,833
Points
113
And also here and there

 

EdbergsGhost

Masters Champion
Joined
Sep 29, 2015
Messages
729
Reactions
154
Points
43
I don't completely agree with this, in a couple of ways. Connors and McEnroe, the biggest loudmouths of yesteryear, argued with chair umpires over calls. However loudly and obnoxiously, with smashing of racquets and water bottles. But what they did is the extreme version of what a lot of players do: to argue with the chair. I'm trying to think of any of the bad boys, like Nastase or Tiriac, even, to find an example of impugning a player's romantic partner on court, or deliberately tanking a game. You know that I'm generally in Nick's corner, but he stepped across a few big lines in a short amount of time last summer. I believe that puts him on a sort of semi-permanent parole with the chairs umps. I don't think it has "snowballed." He's been better behaved, and they've seen that. But when he steps over the line, they're ready for him. He made that bed. It can change over time, but that's going to be up to him being on stellar behavior. You can't unwrite what you already wrote.

Culture is constantly changing, while the world of tennis has remained rather insulated from all of it. Nick has the posturing and persona of someone more inclined to play a game of pickup basketball on the corner than elite tennis on the hallowed grounds of SW19. He will mouth off, trash talk, not play his best when something ticks him off.

I believe that he is beginning to understand that he needs to have the winning results before he can go about trying to change the culture. I sometimes wince when I hear or read about things he said, but he is never boring.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
42,645
Reactions
13,836
Points
113
Culture is constantly changing, while the world of tennis has remained rather insulated from all of it. Nick has the posturing and persona of someone more inclined to play a game of pickup basketball on the corner than elite tennis on the hallowed grounds of SW19. He will mouth off, trash talk, not play his best when something ticks him off.

I believe that he is beginning to understand that he needs to have the winning results before he can go about trying to change the culture. I sometimes wince when I hear or read about things he said, but he is never boring.
I completely agree with this. Tennis will probably get less white-gloved, but someone like Nick can't make the change until he proves that he's the top of the pile. Then, all will be forgiven. And I do think he'll likely get there, or close enough to move the line on the culture.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EdbergsGhost

Billie

Nole fan
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
5,330
Reactions
850
Points
113
Location
Canada
Leave it to Carol to point how bad Nole is. How come you don't post videos of your second favourite player and his dirty mouth? Even Kim swears loudly but that's ok to you? I frankly don't think you understand half of what he says. But his being mad is mostly at himself, his yelling (except that one time in Madrid when they deserved it) was mostly directed at himself and his box. And frankly most of those examples happened few years ago. Like that example where the guy hackled him the whole time (in Toronto in 2012 vs Haas) and finally the officials talked to the guy because you are not supposed to taunt players on court.

He never insulted another player, never said anything personal about them in public, let alone on court. He is often so involved in the moments on court that he doesn't even realize where everybody else is, except the ball and his opponent. It is adrenaline rush. He has had his fair share of penalties and violations and I don't have problems with that. He breaks a racquet, penalty is warranted and is given. If he had hit that lines judge in Paris, they would have defaulted him I am positive. That's why it scared him and there wasn't 1 outburst from him all the way till the end of the tournament from that moment on. I don't think he got away with anything in his life. Even when he yells at his box and a ball kid was close (in those two examples) he got a penalty, but not only that: he felt bad afterwards and sought them out to apologise and to reaffirm that it wasn't directed at them. He never yelled at the kids on court.

He is also first one to applaud his opponents often for their great shots. He is very gracious in winning and losing. Even though he sometimes feels the umpires are not right in their calls (like with Carlos or that other guy) he never ever requested they be excused from his matches like Nadal did. He never took anybody else's seat or did anything out of protocol. Never had matches stopped on his behalf because he didn't like the conditions. Nole might be more temperamental but he is certainly sporting in every way, concedes points when they are earned by his opponents even if they are not given to them by the umpires. And it didn't happen just once or twice.

I frankly don't see anything even remotely similar between Nole and Kyrgios.
 

Carol

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2015
Messages
9,225
Reactions
1,833
Points
113
Billie, I've never say that he is like Kyrgios
And Madrid didn't deserve that show as you can see how well they celebrated the Novak win this year, you should blame all the Bulgaries that were there that year making so much noise
 

Billie

Nole fan
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
5,330
Reactions
850
Points
113
Location
Canada
Billie, I've never say that he is like Kyrgios
And Madrid didn't deserve that show as you can see how well they celebrated the Novak win this year, you should blame all the Bulgaries that were there that year making so much noise

And he behaved nicely this year, didn't he? There were a lot of things happening that night in Madrid and no most were not Bulgarians, but it is all in past. There were a lot of insults thrown his way, that he didn't deserve.

Nole is not the only one that screams, he is temperamental. He doesn't swear nearly as half as Murray, but you don't seem to have problems with that. And you can't even understand Nole's swear words, because if he does (rarely in the last few years) swear, it is in Serbian. And we are frankly not that offended because swear words are unfortunately common occurrence in Serbian culture.

I never complained about players screaming and shouting on court at themselves or their team, I know it is not directed at me, even if it appears that they look at me. I actually find it amusing to see it and makes me chuckle.:D
 

Ricardo

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
2,673
Reactions
646
Points
113
Leave it to Carol to point how bad Nole is. How come you don't post videos of your second favourite player and his dirty mouth? Even Kim swears loudly but that's ok to you? I frankly don't think you understand half of what he says. But his being mad is mostly at himself, his yelling (except that one time in Madrid when they deserved it) was mostly directed at himself and his box. And frankly most of those examples happened few years ago. Like that example where the guy hackled him the whole time (in Toronto in 2012 vs Haas) and finally the officials talked to the guy because you are not supposed to taunt players on court.

He never insulted another player, never said anything personal about them in public, let alone on court. He is often so involved in the moments on court that he doesn't even realize where everybody else is, except the ball and his opponent. It is adrenaline rush. He has had his fair share of penalties and violations and I don't have problems with that. He breaks a racquet, penalty is warranted and is given. If he had hit that lines judge in Paris, they would have defaulted him I am positive. That's why it scared him and there wasn't 1 outburst from him all the way till the end of the tournament from that moment on. I don't think he got away with anything in his life. Even when he yells at his box and a ball kid was close (in those two examples) he got a penalty, but not only that: he felt bad afterwards and sought them out to apologise and to reaffirm that it wasn't directed at them. He never yelled at the kids on court.

He is also first one to applaud his opponents often for their great shots. He is very gracious in winning and losing. Even though he sometimes feels the umpires are not right in their calls (like with Carlos or that other guy) he never ever requested they be excused from his matches like Nadal did. He never took anybody else's seat or did anything out of protocol. Never had matches stopped on his behalf because he didn't like the conditions. Nole might be more temperamental but he is certainly sporting in every way, concedes points when they are earned by his opponents even if they are not given to them by the umpires. And it didn't happen just once or twice.

I frankly don't see anything even remotely similar between Nole and Kyrgios.

he did use his influence to get his brother to replace another player who ranked higher, into a tournament. Andy Murray didn't do that for his brother, he helped out by playing doubles with him occasionally so that's all fair.
 

EdbergsGhost

Masters Champion
Joined
Sep 29, 2015
Messages
729
Reactions
154
Points
43
he did use his influence to get his brother to replace another player who ranked higher, into a tournament. Andy Murray didn't do that for his brother, he helped out by playing doubles with him occasionally so that's all fair.

It was the Dubai 2012, and his brother Marko was given a WC to enter and he promptly lost in the first round. To what extent Djoker used his influence (other than putting in a request a month before), we don't know. Did the tournament directors take into consideration that he was the world #1? No doubt.

Marko was 20 years old at the time and coming back from injury that had him laid up for almost ten months (hence the #869 ranking). He was working his way back and his brother wanted him to have an opportunity, and made the request. I feel badly for the player (Malek Jaziri #102) who had to play the qualifiers instead of getting the wild card.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Billie